Any of you europeans fly in US?

[ArcherII]

I was just wondering if any of you have been able to get FAA ratings and find a job in the US.

I would appreciate any info regarding visas/immigration issues...FAA vs. JAA training etc.

I'm currently in the US, have an FAA PPL...would like to pursue the corporate pilot career...but am trying to figure out what ratings (JAA or FAA or both?) and where to look for a job...(Europe or US)...I'm Italian...and the road to a career in teh US seems a long and hard one...I'm thinking probably easier to try and find a job in europe as a pilot

thanx

Archer

[M.85]

Hi there,
Easier to get a job in europe?think twice..
All depends if you d rather live in Italy or US...in a long term.
If you decide to stay in the USA, the cheapest way is to go via the Instructor way..lots of flight schools will hire you after you get your licence..Get your CFI CFII and MEI.Good chance theyll pay you under the table..
Then by then youd have built up the magic nr of 1200 or 1500(ATPL).Until then get married coz no other way to get a job...no sponsors..i got very lucky..but after sept11 no good news for expats.And jet operators never sponsor as too complicated..flight out of and back in the US.
SO my friend,if you decide to get your FAA licences you must bear in mind that you will do your career over there.(Not bad i tell you..)
Your FAA is considered as peanuts over here,the CAA is nearly reluctant to issue you a PPL from your FAA ATPL..tell me about ..been there done that never again...
If you want to live in Italy,come back now as your FAA wont stand a chance even express Airline time..

Your choice...but for someone willing to pay his dues,work hard(without much money),The USA are still TOP1...
If you want advice on how schools in the USA work ask me..One tried to rip me off..they are out of business now

:E :E

Safe flying,

M.85

[ArcherII]

Well, M.85, it's really an issue of immigration more than anything else. If I knew I could work legally in the US without much of a problem, I would definitely just work here, as I"m already used to , already have my FAA PPL and it's cheaper here etc.

But from what I've been hearing from people for hte past 2 years...it's not the easiset thing to get a residence and steal the job from thousands of other Ameerican pilots dying to get a position.

I do hear of some flight schools (especially in Florida) that hire their foreign students. That's why I'm still considreing getting FAA licences and trying to work here.

If I decided to try workin in Europe, I would geta ll my JAA/FAA licences in Florida and then finish up training in the UK (to get some actual flight on european airsspace) and probably try tof ly in the UK in that wonderful IFR weather they've got. ;)

As far as schools go...I've been looking hard at two types of school:

1. FAA schools that give you a ton of multi time
2. Schools that give you both JAA and FAA licences in Florida

under "1" I'm looking at:

Fly Aviatior Inc www.flyaviator.com

they offer 200 hours multi time and all FAA ratings for 26 grand (very cheap)

All ATPs www.allatps.com

They offer 190 hours multi (50 in a sim) and all ratings...but they are very reputable and train you as if you were flying 737s rather than Seminoles across teh entire US on x/c. Also 3 hours in a Citation for jet transition...

under "2" I'm looking at:

International Flight Training Academy : www.goifta.com

All the JAA and FAA ratings for 39 grand plus chance to work as instructor and participate in first officer program. Get to fly a King Air too and get typed.

Euroepan Flight Training: www.europeanflighttraining.com

Orlando Flight Training: www.flyoft.com


any advice/experiences with those schools...or Europe/JAA vs US/FAA flying and immigration issues appreciated

Happy 100 year of flight to everybody!

Archer

[englishal]

Your best bet in my opinion, is to pay for the hours. Many of the US schools get away with employing people by not paying them, which is also how you get your hours.

If you have £40k to spare (from scratch, maybe less if you already hold PPL), you train in the US for a couple of years, get an FAA ATP with 600hrs multi, 500 of them in a turbine, like a B1900, and the JAA conversion, meaning that you end up with FAA ATP, JAA ATPL, 600 Multi, 500 turbine. Then you need to do an MCC course for a couple of grand.

Then you best bet during those two years in America, is either apply for the Green Card lottery if you are eligible, or fall in love and get married :D There is virtually no chance of getting anything other than a cash-in-hand-slightly-dodgey instructors job unless you are eligible for residence.

One point, turbo prop aircraft in the states < 12501lbs do not require a type rating, though in JAR land, many do. So when you convert to JAR you may need to also pay for the type rating on the type you've already been flying for 500 hrs!

I wouldn't bother going to a JAR approved school in the US. What you get there is essentially the same training as a US school would give you, but you pay extra for those three little letters (J A R). Its just as easy and probably costs no more, to get all your FAA ratings and then convert to JAR later on. There's schools which now specialize in this....

Cheers
EA

[M.85]

Damn boy:hmm:
What can I say???
I did the USA route..believe me...id rather you phone me and let you know.i got the tshirt on every road you may take to get your licences and yes i also sued a huge flight school in Florida because they tried to scam me big time!!it took 4 years..i even got the FBI involved and now the owners are on the run and the shools(they had 2)are out of business.
If you are interested(it used to be called ATA in florida)
Anyways i know the pros and cons..
I built my time overthere...came back with over 2500 hours..2400 hours multi turbine including 1400 hours single pilot in SA227 and Be1900s..was paid under the table while waiting for the H1 visa...
Came back to europe to convert..all 14 exams and the grant of a PPL!!!!unless you fly jets over 30T with time on type..yes you have to get type rated which is not commomn for a F/O in the USA..just a SIC check..your hours wont count to get passed the 14 exams...
Plus,you may go to a JAR school but believe the Airlines in Europe dont get a rats ass about your time in the USA eventhough you went to a JAR approved school..
Im more than happy if you want to contact me and ill answer any questions you may have.
Whatever you do ..NEVER EVER pay your fees in one go..theyll get you by the balls and will do whatever they want with you(thats what they thought anyways..)

The best thing if you want to know about the school in the USA is to call the FAA in Texas and ask about it..if the owners are "clean"..if they closed other flight schools before..how long did they open the above school for..how many students..any accidents and so forth..NEVER TRUST ANY WEBSITE!!

I could go on and on...

Hope that helps and pm for more if you want..

Fly safe,

M.85

[ArcherII]

If you have £40k to spare (from scratch, maybe less if you already hold PPL), you train in the US for a couple of years, get an FAA ATP with 600hrs multi, 500 of them in a turbine, like a B1900, and the JAA conversion, meaning that you end up with FAA ATP, JAA ATPL, 600 Multi, 500 turbine. Then you need to do an MCC course for a couple of grand.

Ok, but all of this hour building...especially multi turbine is easier said than done. Usually people require 1500 to 2000 hours with like 400+ hours multi before they take you for a turbine job. And those people require that you are "legally allowed to work the US". Which is hard to do.

Then you best bet during those two years in America, is either apply for the Green Card lottery if you are eligible, or fall in love and get married There is virtually no chance of getting anything other than a cash-in-hand-slightly-dodgey instructors job unless you are eligible for residence.

Yeah...the lottary, I'm applying this year. That's just chance. It would solve ALL my problems if I got it. But again...it's a long process and it's just luck. Getting married...I don't wanna marry a woman just because of my job. Rather go back to Europe.

One point, turbo prop aircraft in the states < 12501lbs do not require a type rating, though in JAR land, many do. So when you convert to JAR you may need to also pay for the type rating on the type you've already been flying for 500 hrs!

That is pretty crazy. IFTA advertises their new program where they type you in their King Air under JAA "for thousands of pounds less than in Europe"

I wouldn't bother going to a JAR approved school in the US. What you get there is essentially the same training as a US school would give you, but you pay extra for those three little letters (J A R). Its just as easy and probably costs no more, to get all your FAA ratings and then convert to JAR later on. There's schools which now specialize in this....


Well, for example IFTA trains you in JAA and gives you FAA training at no extra cost.

in EFT the difference I think is 6 grand for all the FAA converstions.

So it's pretty worthwhile for not much of a cost difference. The only question is...is it better to train JAA/FAA ....or train FAA and then later convert to JAA. I heard the conversion process is very difficult, tideous and costly.



I built my time overthere...came back with over 2500 hours..2400 hours multi turbine including 1400 hours single pilot in SA227 and Be1900s..was paid under the table while waiting for the H1 visa...
Came back to europe to convert..all 14 exams and the grant of a PPL!!!!unless you fly jets over 30T with time on type..yes you have to get type rated which is not commomn for a F/O in the USA..just a SIC check..your hours wont count to get passed the 14 exams...
Plus,you may go to a JAR school but believe the Airlines in Europe dont get a rats ass about your time in the USA eventhough you went to a JAR approved school..


How did you get to work in the US without an H1 visa? 2500 total, 2400 multi trubine sounds like you went straight into the right seat of a turbine...did you have a good amount of hours before you did this? I don't understand...to get a turbine job you usually need, as I said at least 1500 hours and at least some 200 hours multi...bare minimums.

I want to find out about FAA to JAA conversions...cause FAA training can be much cheaper...especially at some of these schools that offer you all the training in a multi like allATPs and Ari-Ben...

Archer

[M.85]

Well,I dont know what to say...
If you still have your doubts ,just pick up the phone and call the CAA.

Best of luck,

M.85

[englishal]

especially multi turbine is easier said than done.
Its easier done than said ! If you have 100hrs Multi time (which is why you end up with 600hrs multi in the courses I was going on about) then they position you as P2 in a multi pilot turbine a/c for the remaining 500 hrs. If you work it out, you end up paying something like $30 per hour for each turbine hour. The only requirement is to have FAA CPL/IR and 100hrs ME time, which you get from your course anyhow. They provide your visa, you're training, so a student and not getting paid for it remember.

You don't have to marry a woman for your job, it just might be that you meet a woman while you're over there for two years. You never know, she my be georgous :D

Well, for example IFTA trains you in JAA and gives you FAA training at no extra cost.

Is this becasue they get the FAA ratings first and then convert? How much do they charge? FAA instruction runs about $35 per hour, PPL, CPL, ME, IR etc.....

6 grand for an FAA to JAA conversion is money for old ropes, if that doesn't include the IR (unless it does of course). The JAA IR cannot be done anywhere other than in a JAA member state, so I don't know how somewhere in Florida could do an IR. Theoretically an FAA CPL holder is excempt from a formal JAA course, its just training as required. The cost to convert FAA CPL/IR to JAA fATPL at a well known school in Southern England runs at about £7,000 for the lot excl. exams, which seems reasonable considering £170/hr for the aircraft (£55/hr instruction).

Cheers
EA

[ArcherII]

Its easier done than said ! If you have 100hrs Multi time (which is why you end up with 600hrs multi in the courses I was going on about) then they position you as P2 in a multi pilot turbine a/c for the remaining 500 hrs. If you work it out, you end up paying something like $30 per hour for each turbine hour. The only requirement is to have FAA CPL/IR and 100hrs ME time, which you get from your course anyhow. They provide your visa, you're training, so a student and not getting paid for it remember.


What courses are you referring to englishall? Are you talking about FAA pro pilot programs where you PAY to get put in the right see of a turbine airplane? Like Gulfstream Academy? Where you pay to get put in the right seat of the 1900? That's not looked upon good by airlines and corporate employers. Paying for right seat multi turbine is not even near the value of earning the right seat and getting paid to work as an FO.

Many will look down upon pilots who pay for their right seat positions. But it might be good for foreign people who can't easily get a work visa in the US.


Is this becasue they get the FAA ratings first and then convert? How much do they charge? FAA instruction runs about $35 per hour, PPL, CPL, ME, IR etc.....

6 grand for an FAA to JAA conversion is money for old ropes, if that doesn't include the IR (unless it does of course). The JAA IR cannot be done anywhere other than in a JAA member state, so I don't know how somewhere in Florida could do an IR. Theoretically an FAA CPL holder is excempt from a formal JAA course, its just training as required. The cost to convert FAA CPL/IR to JAA fATPL at a well known school in Southern England runs at about £7,000 for the lot excl. exams, which seems reasonable considering £170/hr for the aircraft (£55/hr instruction).


No, these schols train you for JAA...and offer you the option of having the FAA with no additional cost (basically promoting you to have both licences). The school I talk of specifically is IFTA.

The JAA IR is offered by these Florida schools...many advise that you complete some of the training in UK airspace...but most of the IR is done in US airspace.

[englishal]

but most of the IR is done in US airspace.
Which means you're effectively doing an FAA IR.....not that there is anything wrong with that, I just think it is wrong to tell people they're paying and doing for a JAA IR when in fact they are doing an FAA IR, or the FAA training. You might as well do the FAA IR and convert (if you do it with the right school who knows JAA preocedures and tolerances).......Just my view.

Paying for RHS turbine time is an option open to put yourself one step ahead of the game. As an employer I would look more favourably on someone with 1500hrs TT, 600multi, 500 turbine, than a fATPL with 250hrs straight from a well known FTO in the UK (and the cost is comparable).....

good luck

EA

[ArcherII]

I looked at Gulfstream Academy, which is the only place I know of that puts you in a 1900 for 250 hours as an FO.

They require US passport or green card though for this program.

I was wondering what programs you were referring to that allowed foreign students and did visa work for them.

Are the US schools or UK schools you reffered to?

Can you let me know which ones these are? I would like to look into them.

thanx

Archer

[englishal]

There is a place at Burbank, LA, I forget who, who take foreign students. I met a brit in a hotel in LA who was on one of these courses, he was doing 500Hrs turbine in a B1900. Visa was supplied.

If I find out anything else I'll let you know

rgds
EA

[ArcherII]

Ok...I'd appreciate it...I'm curious to know which other schools besides Gulfsteam Academy provide turbine training...

[raysalmon]

TAB Express International provides turbine training (old Kingair A & B90s I believe). They're also starting up their own little airline, using Beech 1900's. You pay the money, they'll train you, then they'll put you in the right seat on of the Beech 1900's and pay you. Once you've built some time, they'll help you get on with a more serious operator.

Some US flight schools offer limited employment after graduating from their program because they are operating under the M-1 Visa program which allows for some type of education-related work programs for a limited time.

Don't be fooled, the M-1 is a student visa only, not a work permit. It is a non-immigrant visa, so they expect you to pack up and head back to where you came from once you're done.

You could stay in the U.S. and attempt to adjust status to a permanent resident, but that requires that you either have an eligible family sponsor, or that you have an employer that is willing to go to bat for you at the Dept. of Labor. With the current glut of qualified pilots in the U.S. that's going to be easier said than done. In the meantime, you'll have to leave the U.S. when your M-1 expires until such time as your immigrant visa is approved.

Ray

[dorosenco]

Few comments : the grass is always greener at your neighbor's.
Maybe there are few more jobs in the US than EU but the employer's attitude is more "human" toward its pilots in the EU than US.
These days pilots are treated like sh*t in the US. Pay is crap, make you work long hours and they always tell you : "be happy that I let you fly that $10M airplane, you piece of sh*t".
I know hundreds of pilots working for Mesa Airlines, Sky West, American Eagle, Great Lakes Airlines, Commair, etc ... who decided to give up on their dream because it was becoming unbearable.
Flight Attendents for the famous American Airlines, based in NYC, are applying for food tickets not to starve. The famous AA company forbids them any "social aid" saying that it is bad image for the company ... But, how can you live out of $1,000/month in New York City where sharing a room with 6 others is still $500/month ???
Captains for Great Lakes and Mesa Airlines cannot even afford a rental, they live in motor-homes.
Pilots for Ameriflight, making less than the McDonald's guy. And the employer treating them worse than the janitor (you're sick ? you're fired ...). Forget about benefits ...

Today, becoming a pilot is not anymore about how much you want it but how much you are willing to sacrifice for it ... And don't forget guys, one day IT WILL become boaring like any other job ... DO NOT SACRIFICE YOUR FAMILIES !!! That's the biggest mistake that you can make.
I had a friend of mine (Cpt for a "famous" airline) who committed suicide after loosing his wife first and then his home due to unbearable schedules and no money ...

[ArcherII]

Yeah, I'm getting the same general feeling about the US pilot market...form what I've been eharing at flightinfo.com and other places with pro US pilots.

Pilots with thousands of hours can't find jobs.

A CFI gets payed usually 10 to 20 grand a year!!! How is that allowed? That will only produce bad Instructors...who will teach badly and produce mediocre students just like themselves.

[dorosenco]

bad instructors is one thing, bad pilots is even worse. when I'm flying at FL330, I need to know that the pilot is concentrating on flying the airplane and not thinking of how he is going to pay his bills.

and all that slavery works because there are pilots out there willing to pay for the right seat !!!
understand that by doing that you hurt all other pilots who cannot find a decent job anymore because the airlines can hire foreign pilots for nothing !!!

also, all foreign pilots who do that are also hurting themselves by spending enormous amounts of money for jet hours and they will never be able to find a decent job after that "initial training" ...