PA 28 Warrior 161

[duir]

Can anyone tell me the usual V1, VR, Climb , Descent and Approach speeds and the Descent and Approach RPM settings of the PA 28 Warrior 161

[Keef]

I'd be very inclined to read the POH for the one you're flying, in conjunction with your W&B calculation.

Typical Vr is around 55 knots. Climbout depends whether you want best rate, best angle, or a compromise: somewhere between 63 and 75 knots. Descent whatever the profile needs - Vne is between 153 and 160 knots depending on variant. Approach speed typically 65 knots (weight dependant); RPM to suit speed and descent angle, but probably in the range 1500 to 2200 RPM. For a 3 degree GP and two up, I used around 1850 when I last flew one (couple of years ago).

[easyflyer]

I'm just to take a dual check, and these are newly learned for a specific PA28-161 (all in knots):

Vr 60
Normal climb speed 80
Vy 79 (best rate)
Vx 63 (best angle)
Cruise climb 95
Typical Cruise 95 (max 100)

Vne 160
Vno 126
Vfe 103
Va (max weight) 111
Va (min weight) 88

Base leg 75
Approach (clean/dirty/short field) 70/65/60
Best glide 73

Max x wind 17 (demonstrated, not me!)

[Final 3 Greens]

easyflyer

17kts x-wind is perfectly manageable when you get used to the old girl :D

As is often the case, its usually our personal limit that is the governing factor and very sensibly too.

[Evo]

Cruise speed is odd. I did my PPL and IMC on a variety of PA-28-161s, and while the IMC one would happily criuise at 110kts none of the others did much over 100kts. No obvious external differences, so I've never really understood why one PA-28 was quicker than any of the others- only real difference is that the IMC one is not a club aeroplane and has never been used for ab initio circuit bashing, while the others have; I wonder if years of thump'n'gos work things loose or out of shape and add to the drag? Something for a PA-28 buyer to watch out for maybe.

[Genghis the Engineer]

- Vr is 45 to 55 depending upon weight, 60 is too fast.

- Typical 75% cruise is 105-115 depending upon weight and altitude, 100 seems rather slow to me.

- No idea about RPM settings on finals, I do it by feel and never look ! The POH shows 2500 for descent power setting.

G

N.B. If this is a flying school "quiz" and they haven't given you access to the official POH, give them a boiiocking and ask for a copy, you shouldn't be going near the aircraft without having read and digested it.

[Circuit Basher]

Evo - just a thought - possibly different props were fitted??

[Dan Winterland]

Indeed, the POH is part of the certification. If you operate outside it in any aspect, you will find your insurance invalid should you have a prang.

[witchdoctor]

Be interested to see what kind of approach you are going to fly with 2500 rpm Ghengis old chap - that's cruise power. Somewhere around 1900 for downwind and 1600-1700 for base leg and final should do the trick.

Rotating at 45kts would be a bit daft too as the stall speed for a clean a/c with no power is around 53 kts. 60 kts is much closer to the figures used when I was flying PA28's, and gives a far greater margin of safety should you have a failure on take off.

Either way, defo check out the POH for your specific a/c. Pprune is not always the most reliable source of info.

[Genghis the Engineer]

45-55 is from the POH, personally I use 50 lightweight and 55 heavy. 65 is the normal initial climb speed, so you wouldn't be flying below Vso outside ground effect.

2500 does seem a little odd now you mention it, it's around 70% power in level flight. I think it's probably quoted as the optimum for maximum rate of descent - bearing in mind that RPM will increase without power in a steep dive. It's certainly not an appropriate speed for an approach to land.

G

[eharding]

One of the Warriors at White Waltham has recently had a 4 blade
prop fitted - only flown it once, but significantly quieter and seemed to be quicker - generally in the cruise at 2300rpm the rest of the Warriors make ~95kt - as I recall, G-DM was making
better than that at the same RPM. New engine as well though.

[englishal]

IMC one would happily criuise at 110kts none of the others did much over 100kts
I've flown a couple like this, and when I questioned why was told that the slower one had a slightly different shapped wing, giving slower cruise but better weight carrying ability....

Cheers

[tonyhalsall]

Talking of different shaped wings............................
Is it a generalisation that Cherokees have the slab wings and Warriors have a more profiled wing?

[MLS-12D]

I'd be very inclined to read the POH for the one you're flying, in conjunction with your W&B calculation. Probably he is a MS FlightSimulator pilot and so doesn't have access to a POH.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Talking of different shaped wings............................

Yes and no.

Cherokees have the slab wing and are slower and better at load hauling. That goes for the PA28 Cherokees but also the Arrow and Lance.

The Arrow 3, Saratoga, Archer and Warriors are all tapered wing aircraft.

HTH

FD

[Saab Dastard]

All the Warriors @ Fairoaks (PA28 161 warrior IIs) do 100 knots @ around 2450 RPM in the cruise. Supposed to be 105, but that was for perhaps rather younger aircraft. ;)

As a student I was told to plan for 105 knots, but found that 100 was actually much nearer the mark - and also easier to do mental calcs with.

I've flown a 180 HP Cherokee that did a rather brisk 120 knots (oo-er missus) at 2400.

tonyhalsall - yes, it is a generality! It seems that if the PA 28 1xy designator ends in 1 (e.g. 161) it has the tapered wing.

The PA28 Cherokee family originally included the Warrior as a variant along with the Archer and Dakota, although the Cherokee prefix was subsequently dropped for the Archer and the Warrior! The Cherokee 140, 150, 160 and 180 have the slab wing and the tapered wing with washout started with the Warrior 151 and is also on the PA-28-161 Warrior II and III, the PA-28-181 Cherokee Archer II and PA-28-236 Dakota, PA-28-201T Turbo Dakota and PA-28-161 Cadet (similar to the Warrior, but stripped down as a dedicated trainer).

But it isn't even as simple as that, as there are other PA28 variations to consider (eg retractables) that I don't know wot of. I'm sure that you can find a website or two with lots of info.

And I'm also sure that others will correct what I've written!

Cheers

SD

[englishal]

Whats the difference between a Warrior and a Cadet..?

Cheers
EA

[Keef]

The PA28XXX1 designator for the tapered wing applies also to the Arrow. The PA28R200 is the Arrow 2 with the "Hershey bar" wing, the -201 is the Arrow 3 with the taper.

The Arrow 200 is a few knots faster than the 201. I recall the MTWA is less, though (not got the books here so can't check).

The Warrior 151 I used for my FAA training in Florida last year would cruise at 110 knots at 2400RPM (when trimmed right). Quite an impressive little beast, it was!

I'd previously flown a PA28-180 that could just manage 95 knots at 2400 (but that was in Detroit, so someone may have nicked one of the pots).

[Flyin'Dutch']

Cadet is a 2 seater training version of the PA28 series.

Have not a clue what the engine is. Would guess an O-320 with 140hp.

FD

[Lowtimer]

The Cadet is simply a Warrior II with the rear seat ripped out, and the spats taken off. 160 hp 0-320, tapered wing.

[englishal]

Cadet is a 2 seater training version of the PA28 series
I've flown 4 seat Cadets at Bournemouth though. I didn't notice any difference between the Warriors and Cadets.....?

Cheers
EA

[Evo]

Evo - just a thought - possibly different props were fitted??


This is possible - they all had the standard (for old PA-28s) two-blade props, but they could be different designs. I believe that the performance of the one I did the IMC was better all round (rate of climb as well as cruise), but rather hard to check now.


I've flown a couple like this, and when I questioned why was told that the slower one had a slightly different shapped wing, giving slower cruise but better weight carrying ability....


I've only flown PA-28-1x1s (151, 161 and 181), I thought that these shared the same the wing. AFAIK all the -161s that i've flown are the same vintage (1970s), if there is a difference in the wing then it is subtle - I can tell a 180 from a 181 :)

[knobbygb]

Cadets are indeed four seaters. It's possible these days to reduce insurance premiums by 'converting' the aircraft to a two seater, so perhaps that's what happened in 'Dutch's case.

Apart from the already mentioned lack of spats, the Cadet is lacking a baggage door for access behind the rear seats and only has two windows on each side - the rear one being ommited. This is the easiest way to identify them (poor quality pic (http://www.pbase.com/image/5968944) here with Warrior in background for comparison). Inside, the instrument panel (http://www.pbase.com/image/5974217) is very different to the warrior (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/098123/M/), especially the position of the tacho, ammeter and the oil temp/pressure gauges, although I suspect this varies even between different Cadets. Looking at the numbers, the MTOW on the cadet is 125lb less than the Warrior II (2325lb, 1054kg), althoutgh some Warriors also have this lower limit too. The operating V speeds are the same for both types.

[duir]

Didn't mean to sound as though I hadn't read the book or it was not available to me at my club. Its just that I have not flown for several months after a serious head injury and am about to revalidate my licence after getting my medical back. Feeling very rusty though so wanted to refresh a few things to make most of lesson. Also I was taught to rotate at 70 knots(Flapless take off) but this seems fast compared to what some of you are saying.

Thanks again.

[Keef]

Glad you're back in the sky!

70 knots is far too fast for rotate speed in a PA28. I'd go for 55, liftoff at 60 to 65, and climbout at 70 to 80. Check the POH for the one you fly!

I rotate at 55, liftoff at 70 and cllimb at 85 to 90 in an Arrow. Nominally - if we're light, it will lift itself off before I tell it to.

[BigEndBob]

Warriors that cruise at 110kts on normal cruise power ie 2300-2400 rpm usually have static system leaks.
Easily checked, when you slam the door closed watch the reaction of the VSI, if it jumps 500ft you have a static system leak.
(or optional backup static tap open).

[tmmorris]

Talking of reading the POH, it was when I got checked out in a Warrior in the States that I really saw this done professionally - a retired USAF and then airline pilot with a lot of experience and wisdom was doing the checkout with me, but he still reached for the cruise settings table and established exactly the cruise RPM and fuel flow (it had a FF meter) for our cruise altitude. Unlike any UK flying school I've ever come across, the POH lived in the plane not in the clubhouse.

Mind you, cruise altitude was 6500 one way and 7500 the other, rather more than you usually manage in the south-eastern UK...

I'm now converting to a C172 (only 2 years old - a real treat after clapped-out 1960's PA28's) which with the same O320 as the Warrior cruises happily at 120kts IAS.

Tim

[dmjw01]

I'm now converting to a C172 (only 2 years old - a real treat after clapped-out 1960's PA28's) which with the same O320 as the Warrior cruises happily at 120kts IAS.
Are you sure it isn't an IO360? The new C172's are 180hp these days - that would account for the faster cruise speed. The lack of carb heat will also be a giveaway. ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

BigEnd Bob

There is another type of Warrior that cruises at 110 (light) - the ne where the mags have been sorted properly :D

[Dude~]

Well I used to fly a lovely immaculate PA28-161 in France. My first cross channel flight was from Reims to Fairaoks, solo, and I must have spent over 2 weeks planning and meticulously preparing for it. I cruised at a medium height, approx 5000ft, and was getting 115kts, I know this becuase I planned for it, and my timing were all within 30 secs. I seem to remember running at 2450rpm. That would have been at full fuel and a fair bit of baggage, beer and wine.
That speed was exaclty what the Poh said it would do, I seem to recall the maximum cruise speed quoted as 117kts at about 8000 ft or something, although I must admit that is very high (speed - not height!) for a 160hp warrior.
Mind you this plane allways had golden engine oil, of whihc it consumed a tiny ammount every few hours. It was also spatted and lept very clean - a far cry from some dirty, battered club aircraft where the doors don't close fluch with the fuesalage etc... whcih would account for many people experiencing slower than ususal cruise speeds.

[tmmorris]

err... (foolish look) of course dmjw01 you are absolutely right... there is, of course, no carb heat (very offputting when I've been so carefully drilled to use it!)

Tim

[Ace Rimmer]

Couple of things that occur to me: Slab wing Cherokees are a bit more x-wind sensitive compared with "Warrior wing" variants. Also the heavier variants Arrow 2, -236, Charger etc drop like the proberbial brick at idle and prefer a dribble of power until well into the flare (try that in a warrior wing -161/-181 and you'll flooooooooaaaaaaaatttttttt eating runway for for ages).

Oh yeah, I used to fly a couple of -181s one of them had an older engine a better avionics and interior fit (therefore heavier one assumes) - I don't think it had a cruise prop - same rate of climb and cruised 10kts quicker - go figure.

Mind you if you want a going places PA28 the -236 or Dakota are pretty hot ships relitively speaking (125-135 kt cruise) mind you thery are a bit thirsty and I suppose the Arrow 4 is cooler looking.

[BigEndBob]

I normally found the PA28 161 would actually cruise faster 4 up.
Probably due to less trim drag from the stabilator. But only 2-3 knots faster and of course can get a few knots more with the wheel fairings added.
Also flown 161 with drag reduction kit, that added a few knots and 100lb to mtow. I'm suprised the CAA allowed it!

Also are we talking true airspeed or indicated airspeed?

The old PA28 140 can be very interesting in a cross wind at full flap, would keep flying at very low airspeed but not enough rudder to straighten up.
But excellent short landing craft.
Seem to remember the t/o and ldg distances same as c152.

Best all rounder though, the Archer variant, tough, solid feel, easy to land and engines go for ever, well at least to tbo and behond.

[dwberry]

I think the newer tapered wing came in 1974. So broadly speaking if you see an ad for any PA-28 pre-'74 its going to be a slab wing.

The old Cherokees had a stubbier nose too.