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Fancy Navigator
8th Dec 2003, 04:51
Hi folks,
Just wondering if anybody knows if it is possible to do a night qualification in France or in Spain (who are JAA countries) and have it attached to a JAR PPL issued in the UK....
Thank you:)

FougaMagister
19th Dec 2003, 22:45
From what I know of JAR-FCL 1 (admittedly not my preferred read), I can't see any reason why not... It would probably be cheaper if you happen to be there for a few days anyway (or if it doubles up with some planned holiday). The only limiting factor as far as France is concerned is that most PPL flight training is done in aeroclubs, NOT flying schools (it's cheaper since they don't charge VAT), and therefore the instructors, while English-speaking, may not be used to teach in English. Also, you would need to become a member of your chosen aeroclub. Membership is around 150-200 Euros for one year, so unless you are planning to go back to do some more flying (hour building for instance), it would be a waste. Also, at uncontrolled airfields (and controlled airfields out of ATC hours), only French is used on the frequency.

Cheers

FlyingForFun
19th Dec 2003, 23:00
There is no requirement for the Night Qualification training to be given by an instructor with any specific qualifications or approval. This is because it is a Qualification, and not a Rating. So you can do it anywhere in the world, with any instructor at all.

I did mine in the US. There is one potential area of difficulty, and that is the requirement for solo flight. In the US, you can only fly an N-registered aircraft on an FAA license. If you have an FAA license that's based on your JAR license, it will have the same restrictions on it as your JAR license. Before you complete your training and sort out the paperwork, your JAR license (and therefore your FAA license) will be restricted such that you may not fly solo at night. But you can not complete the training without flying solo at night. The way around this is to get another FAA license - just a student license will do - which you can use to solo at night (although many people don't bother doing this, and the FAA don't really seem to mind).

I don't know the French or the Spanish regulations well enough to know if there would be similar complexities there, but certainly as far as the CAA are concerned there shouldn't be any problems.

FFF
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FougaMagister
19th Dec 2003, 23:11
FFF - your knowledge of JAR-FCL is amazing! While I did my Night Qualif. in Florida (just after the JAA PPL skill test, and before the licence was actually issued by the CAA on my return), I can confirm that the French rules (and undoubtedly the Spanish ones too) are the same as the British ones... It's all JAA. A CAA-issued JAA licence is fine to fly an F-reg a/c in France (that's what I do), the only requirement is, like in any other flying club, to be checked out before going solo.

Cheers

FlyingForFun
19th Dec 2003, 23:16
:O :O :O

Not sure if that's a compliment or not, Fouga :D I only know the bits that I've had to use, though. And please, whatever you do, don't rely on my memory - check LASORS. I have been known to have out of date information, and I've also been known to be totally wrong.

FFF
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machonepointone
20th Dec 2003, 15:13
I can't vouch for France, but one of the problems about doing a night rating in Spain is that they do not appear to recognise night VFR. That means that an IFR flight plan has to be filed for the flights which therefore cannot include touch and goes.

It also raises the question of solo night flying. Unless you have an IR you cannot legally file an IFR flight plan since you would have to land from an instrument approach.

We get round it where I work by going to Portugal for the circuits!

A and C
21st Dec 2003, 18:02
There is no night VFR in the UK all night flying is IFR.

SteveR
22nd Dec 2003, 04:47
There is no night VFR in the UK all night flying is IFR.

Exactly so.

Unless you have an IR you cannot legally file an IFR flight plan since you would have to land from an instrument approach.

Is this so? I don't believe it is (in the UK at least). As a non-imc, non-IR holder, I can file and fly an IFR flightplan.

I'm not allowed in certain airspace, and I'm not allowed to receive the sort of radio service which might oblige me to fly into IMC, but provided I remain VMC I can fly under IFR.

Does one 'have to' land from an instrument approach at the end of an IFR flight? And what's to stop me from landing from one, unqualified, provided I'm in VMC?

Steve R

S-Works
22nd Dec 2003, 05:33
We did this one to death on another thread about night flying not so long ago. NO IFR plan has to end in an Instrument approach. All flight at night is IFR, crossing of controlled airspace is special VFR returning to IFR at the exit from controlled airpspace if you do not hold an IR. An IMC holder is still required to get a SVFR clearance in Class A airpspace but the minimas are less. An IMC holder with a night rating can legally fly out night out of the sight of the surface and end the flight in either a visual or an instrument approach.

There have been so many rumours and legends created about this that the CAA have taken the effort in the latest GASIL to actually point out that there is NO SUCH THING as night VFR.

ANYONE can file an IFR flight plan but they need to operate in the limits of there licence. A PPL with no IMC/IR has to remain VMC in sight of the surface at all times even when operating on an IFR flight plan. IFR does not control the conditions that you fly in, just states the set of rules that you will follow. If above 3000ft you must be 1000ft above the highest object within 5nm of track etc etc etc etc.

The channel Islands is an interesting example, the zone is class A but the ATZ is actually class D so an IMC holder can fly to the Islands IFR, get a SVFR clearance accross the zone, return IFR in the Class D airspace and land on an Instrument approach all perfectly legally. The same applies at night.

FlyingForFun
23rd Dec 2003, 04:53
Bose-x,

Agree with everything you say, if we're talking about the UK. But since we're not talking about the UK, I don't think it helps answer the question.

FFF
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trevs99uk
23rd Dec 2003, 05:03
I saw somewhere on the net that the Italian AOPA have
approached the Italian CAA to setup a ' Night VFR ' .

This is due to lots of problems with flying at night and
flying IFR considering the amount of airspace in Italy which
is controlled.