Helicopter Fire-fighting (Merged threads) [Archive]

paco

1st Jul 2002, 10:59

We used long lines in Miramichi last year to resupply relay tanks, that is one in the relay, 2 on the drop and so on. That was only so we could clear the trees, otherwise I prefer a short line, particularly with using the twinStar/Astar, where the line needs to be at least 100 feet.
The big problem with the long line is that it's difficult to see whether the bucket electrics go into the water if you can't see it properly, so they get wet and short out.

If anyone's interested, here's a bit from the helicopter Pilot's Handbook:

This is subject to the normal restrictions, such as weather or night, although fixed wing fire bombing operations do take place in darkness. You may be asked either to help fight the fire itself, move men and materials over natural barriers, scan with FLIR or report its dimensions back to the fire boss. Above a certain size, however, you won't be putting anything out , but rather slowing things down so the guys on the ground who do the real work can get on with it. Of course, what actually happens is a system of organised chaos, where it’s hard to tell if anyone really knows what’s going on and you end up fighting a little bit all by yourself. Otherwise, if you're not part of the operation, you should not be within 5 nm and below 3000 feet agl of the fire's limits. Anyone joining in should be in touch with the bird dog, if there is one—this is a light plane or helicopter used to control the water tankers, and you need to be told when they are coming so you can get out of the way.

Water bombers will be used either to drop retardant or water, sometimes with foam (which should not be dropped near anywhere environmentally sensitive). Retardant is phosphate fertiliser and water, with a dye so you can see where it hit.
Skimmers (like the CL415) pick water up from nearby lakes, but others get reloaded from nearby airstrips prepared for the purpose. Retardant is not actually used on the fire, but around it, so it is contained in a smaller area and allowed to burn out. There will often be dozers trying to create a break round the fire for the same purpose if it is small enough.
Bombers do not usually get below 150 feet, as the water pattern will get disrupted, so your safest height is well below that.

Helicopters make use of handy sources of water, like swimming pools or small rivers, typically using the Bambi Fire Bucket. These days, the minimum machine is likely to be the AStar B2, with anything lower in performance, such as the 206, being relegated to observation or putting out hot spots, since the bucket size is only 90 gallons. In most cases, the killing time is between 30-45 minutes from the start of the fire, so, if you're on standby, your response time should be as fast as possible.

In this case, you will typically be teamed up with three firefighters and their associated gear, which will fill every available hole in the cabin and baggage compartments. You will need enough fuel to get them to the spot and be useful while you're there, and get them back again, so, on the way, take note of the nearest airfield or refuelling spot. If the fire gets big enough, they may well bring fuel down in drums, but by that time the bombers could well be there anyway and you will be sent off to another one.
Your task, as an initial attack team, is just to stamp on a fire just starting, but you could well be involved in just slowing it down around people or property. You will get your instructions from the bird dog. Directions are given with reference to the head or tail of the fire, which are the downwind and upwind ends, respectively. Left and right flanks are counted from the tail to the head.

Anyhow, picking up water in single-engined helicopters beyond gliding distance from shore has the usual problems, plus possible disorientation if you go too far in. Fast moving streams don’t help, making you feel as if you were moving the wrong way, so it’s best to find a calm area, as otherwise you will have to move the helicopter to keep up with the water, ending up in a fast taxi unawares – always face the flow of the stream. Approach the water with some forward speed so the bucket tips over and starts to fill as you progress, as it has a tendency to drift forward otherwise. Get into a low hover, which will help push it under, and lift it mostly out. If you're heavy (i.e. with a lot of fuel), keep the power on and pull the bucket forward in one smooth movement, using translational lift to get airborne.
You will find that the wind direction is critical. Be careful if you're longlining with a bucket, as the connector plug for the release is difficult to see and might go under water where it shorts out. Longlining would be used where the trees are very tall and there is no water for the hoses nearby—the team will have a small relay tank for you to fill.

When actually bombing, there is about a second's delay between pressing the button and the liquid reaching its target, and pulling up before doing so will help stop the bucket swinging and making you miss in high winds, aside from punching it into the target. Although there is a risk of fanning the flames, you do need to get low over the fire, and preferably slow, as a good dousing will do most to kill them - evaporation will take its toll on whatever is dropped, ensuring that only so much of it is actually effective, and raising the humidity.
Hovering is not recommended, as your downwash may not only fan the fire (even up to twice tree height), but also blow up ash and produce a similar effect to whiteout (the ash will also stick to your windscreen, which will likely be wet from the water pickup). Dropping at some speed over an area is mostly used for cooling purposes after the flames are out, as a fire can stay underground for days. IR scanning is used to detect hotspots afterwards.

In valleys, be aware of the extra power required to get you out of the “hole” with a load on—buckets don't always release their load, especially if the connectors get wet when picking up.

Forest and moorland fires also require vast amounts of manpower, which are usually tired by the time they get to the fire from the long walk to get there, so you may be used as transport for fire-fighters and their equipment, as well as observation, where your passengers will have some rank and experience, since they will be directing ground forces from the air (this will be especially true for lesser-powered helicopters). Very often, you will be moving people in very short hops over rivers and streams.

One development of this is rappelling, which is the rapid deployment of fire crews by rope from a helicopter (and back in emergency) until the regular crews arrive.

You will also not necessarily be the only aircraft about. The combination of lots of smoke (and poor visibility), coupled with heat turbulence and other machines buzzing about could prove to be extremely dangerous – many people report it’s just like being in a war zone (the organised chaos only makes it more so), but if you've ever done the British Grand Prix or joined Biggin Hill circuit you should be alright.
Constant communications between machines (on the same frequency) are essential, especially if you are picking up from the same swimming pool (in practice, you will go through the bird dog if you want to change position). One pilot reported that the distance from a pond to the fire was so small as to only require a fast hover taxi between them both, which meant that oil temperatures began to redline, as there wasn’t enough airflow to cool things down (sometimes ash will clog the oil cooler). You will be tired, as well, after a couple of days continuous flying from dawn to dusk, though you probably won’t notice till afterwards, as adrenalin counts for a lot.

Upslope drops should be avoided as much as possible, and only be attempted by experienced crews, especially on low targets, as you will need more airspeed than normal to create a pull-up to clear the area with the load if necessary, without using extra power. Aside from trying to do a 180-degree pedal turn in a high hover out of ground effect, the resulting high power setting will likely fan the flames, as with a hover drop. It helps if you have a drop off place to one side, and approach with some airspeed, so you can climb with the cyclic, and turn one way or the other with the least power, depending on which way round your blades are going.

With downslope drops, you will not necessarily see the target until you clear the ridge, so you will need targets to line up on beforehand. For very steep slopes, try reducing speed before diving off the ridge, so you don’t end up going too fast. Cross-slope drops are OK, provided you remember where your rotor disk is. With North American blade rotation, keep downhill slopes on your right, so if the bucket doesn't open or you run out of power, you can drop the collective, put the nose down and be able to use the right pedal to take the strain off the tail rotor. Always approach at a 45°, unless you have a bit of height.

phil

StevieTerrier

1st Jul 2002, 20:12

My boss (says he) did a bit in Spain / Portugal with Bell 205's. He regaled me with tales of taking water from private swimming pools and blowing over the residents / furniture / barbecues in the process.

He said it was perfectly legal and kosher, but he is a bit of a cowboy. Anybody like to comment on this? (the legality,not the cowboy aspect as that is confirmed).

He also had a 205 that a couple of Portuguese crashed for him. Sadly, they did it in front of the advancing fire, so there was little to recover.

As they say "Third party fire and theft?" who would want to steal a burning helicopter?

Capn Notarious

1st Jul 2002, 20:17

I am grateful of everybodies input. Do you ever use helicopters as hose layers.
But the big-one as in Ericson aircrane, if using the forward
facing moniter does that effect the stability, more than the vertical release from a bucket. Does the nozzle adjust to a spray.
Do the pilots have difficulty obtaining life insurance.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST. WAS A CHAP REALLY FOUND IN THE REMAINS OF A FOREST FIRE, CLAD IN SCUBA GEAR HAVING BEEN PICKED UP IN A BUCKET/

paco

1st Jul 2002, 23:59

California Examiner, 20/3/1998:

Fire Authorities in California found a corpse in a burnt out section of forest while assessing the damage done by a forest fire. The deceased male was dressed in a full wet suit, complete with a dive tank, flippers, and facemask. A post-mortem examination revealed that the person died not from burns but from massive internal injuries. Dental records provided a positive identification. Investigators then set about determining how a fully clad diver ended up in the middle of forest fire. It was revealed that, on the day of the fire, the person went for a diving trip off the coast-some 20 miles away from the forest. The firefighters, seeking to control the fire as quickly as possible, called in a fleet of helicopters with large water buckets. The buckets were dropped into the ocean for rapid filling, then flown to the forest fire and emptied. You guessed it.

One minute our diver was making like Flipper in the Pacific, and next he was doing a breaststroke in a fire bucket 300 feet in the air. Apparently, he extinguished exactly 5'10" of the fire. Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed.

Autorotate

2nd Jul 2002, 00:20

Hey John

Any tips on removing said bambi buckets with full loads, without dragging them some nice beautiful shrubbery surrounding swimming pools at Kurrajong Heights :D :D :D

Autorotate;)

buttline

2nd Jul 2002, 04:13

Heliport - excellent thread!

Paco - fascinating stuff. I knew that scuba diver well - he was a good guy, real shame.

Gibbo

2nd Jul 2002, 05:41

Indy Cleo,

Which aircraft were you flying during the last Sydney fires? I was doing air-attack for the most part and enjoyed working with a few Kiwis. (Ahhhhh....Helitak 66 .....Shut Hut Drup on thut run!)

G'day John. :)

Gibbo

John Eacott

2nd Jul 2002, 08:38

Neville,

Sure. Don't go out downwind, crosswind, downslope, hot, heavy, or anywhere some photographer is likely to spot an opportunity ;) :D :D

Gibbo,

You lie like a hairy one.............. :cool:

Autorotate

2nd Jul 2002, 10:19

John

Its a Bitch when the photog is up in the air attack helo, best place to see and you cannot hide :p

Autorotate

Indy Cleo

3rd Jul 2002, 09:57

Hello Gibbo,

I was one of the pilots flying the Helipro BK117 mostly out of Woodlands air base. I also did a stint up in Port MacQuarie as well as a few days to the south of Sydney. Enjoyed my time immensely at the woodlands air base and found everyone a pleasure to work with.

Would not hesitate to do it again if the opportunity arose.

Hello John, thanks for the loan of the fin.

RG

John Eacott

3rd Jul 2002, 10:37

One item that IC hasn't touched on is the type of bucket. Most Oz operators have Bambi's, which are well proven and reliable, albeit with some weak points.

HeliPro brought over some Spray (?) buckets for their 117 and Huey, which had a bottom fill, and variable drop, both of which proved quite valuable. Whilst the fill time was considerably longer than a Bambi, the amount of water taken up was always the maximum achievable for the weight and conditions, not always achievable in the Bambi. Watching the Huey drop a full or partial load was easily as efficient and effective as the 205 with a belly tank. Both HeliPro machines worked a medium/long line, but the one area which the Spray bucket wasn't too good at was hover drops. The manner in which the water flowed around the bottom valve spread the pattern such that a solid vertical soak into a smoker was nigh on impossible to achieve.

Comparative pictures: the HeliPro vertical drop is one of Neville's pictures, you can see how the spray pattern leaves a "hole in the middle":

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/fire7.jpg

This shot is from inside the BK117 with a vertical drop onto a smoker, with a Bambi Bucket. Note the "tighter" vertical stream of water, 900+ litres straight down the throat of the tree:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/BKL%20hover%20drop.jpg

Bambi weak points: always have a box of spares. There aren't many parts in a Bambi, but if you don't have a spare solenoid when yours fails, you are history as a bomber. Purse strings (the parts, not the bean counters :) ) are often overlooked, as are the cables and bladder seal. End of day post flight may highlight increased wear, especially those days of 100+ drops, but an hour's attention will reward itself with faultless performance the next day. Equally, end of season cleaning and maintenance is worth the effort.

In the same fashion, SEI Industry's Sacksafoam units are very reliable, but need a bag of spares in the field, plus routine maintenance. There are other foam injection systems around, all of which will need the same attention.

Long line/bucket on the hook? I'm on holiday, skiing; I'll think that one over for another day :D :D

Wayne Jenkins

3rd Jul 2002, 13:22

1. Urban Legends Reference Pages: Horrors (Corpus Crispy) ••••
Was the charred body of a scuba diver recovered from a tree after a forest fire?
...Claim: The charred remains of a scuba diver were discovered in a tree after a forest fire. Status: False. Example: [Collected on the Internet, 1996]...
...forest fire. The deceased male was dressed in a full wetsuit, complete with a dive tank, flippers and face mask. A post mortem examination revealed that...
...how a fully clad diver ended up in the middle of a forest fire. It was revealed that, on the day of the fire, the person went for a diving trip off the...
Sun, 09 Jun 2002 17:37:13 GMT http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/scuba.htm

Autorotate

3rd Jul 2002, 13:25

John

The first shot is such as masterpiece of photography, shame it hasnt got Lifeflight down the side :D :D

Have dug out some more images and will email them as soon as I get back from Africa.

Autorotate.

tecpilot

3rd Jul 2002, 18:36

Up to 3 years ago i've flown fire fighting helos to and in spain and portugal. During the allyears fire fighting season they chartered helos from all around in europe. In portugal are not so much civil turbine helos and the most pilots flew only in the fire season on the bigger singles. Helicopters are based on several bases and you have to work with the local residents and fire authorities. Due to the language problems most pilots came from brasil and portugal. Especially in the first weeks that business comes together with a lot of bended and overheated metal.
Have seen there some really hot cowboys and acrobatic helo jocks. Maintenance in country is superb, very clean and absolute professional.
Taking water from private swimming pools isn't a tale!!!
Innercountry, really "outlands" it's very dry and dusty. Sometimes it's difficult to get enough water. But residents are very, very friendly and symphatic. And who needs a swimming pool in front of the burning finca??? Or wants to look to the burning neighborhouse from the fresh pool, drinking well cooled pina-colada?

Maybe we can compare the fires with them in australia?! I don't know. The trees (eucalyptus,without koalas) burning like hell.

Seems to be a "macho" country but i've seen some female mechanics ;).
@john
respect! really impressive pictures

Gibbo

4th Jul 2002, 04:34

Hey Indy Cleo,

We did quite a few days on the same fires then. I worked with your BK (Helitak 66 from memory) for about two weeks on and off; around Woodlands (both Bowen Mountain and Colo Heights) and Patonga (that nice little spot on the coast towards the end of the show.

I rate the bucket the Kiwis had (as shown in John's photo above) It sprays a nice even "fan" of water, which is great for doing a linear drop such as a fire front or spot over. Agree 100% regarding the vertical drop from the spray bucket; bambis are much more suitable for dousing a tree or log.

I have very little experience as a fire bomber, but have done plenty of air attack, which is my preference. Having multiple bombing assets on a fire, with different systems, means that it is easy to allocate horses for courses. A linear run that suits a fixed wing bomber (dromader or thrush) can be allocated in conjunction with some cleaning work, such as a burning tree that needs the whole lot down the throat.

Must remember the blokes on the ground when a run is starting; a couple of tonnes of water at 80 kts can upset their day.

Gibbo

Indy Cleo

4th Jul 2002, 09:31

Hello Gibbo,

We actually have a skirt that can be fitted to the bucket which gives it the same drop pattern as a bambi. I am not to sure if you would have seen it in use though.

Another advantage that our bucket has over the bambi is the ability to vary the amount of water uplifted. A great thing to have when freshly refuelled as we could release water until the machine started flying, as the gas was used more water could be carried (1100 litres max). A bambi is restricted to what the helicopter can uplift with full mission fuel.

When using the scoop technique (below) our bucket is just a fast as the bambi (when uplifting the same amount of water that is). Takes a bit of practice to perfect.

http://www.helipro.co.nz/images/aust_photos/bk_dipping.JPG

Phil Kemp

5th Jul 2002, 16:50

Some images of fire-fighting just south of the Arctic Circle in May and June this year. Based out of the Fairbanks area at Chena Hot Springs and then at Livengood, adjacent to the Alaska pipeline.

Alaska fire photos (http://www.photoalbumweb.com/s61akfire/index.asp?albumid=4544&pageid=7433)

Hope you like them!

:)

Nick Lappos

7th Jul 2002, 14:31

The diver story is all wet! It is an urban legend that has been around for years.

Check out:

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/scuba.htm

The site has hundreds of urban legends de-bunked (or proven true!) and will cost you a lost afternoon.

ditchy

9th Jul 2002, 02:42

After several years on fires of varying sizes, I would use a short line while the fire is hot and therefore not hovering over flames, also I found I could refill significantly faster with a short line, thus putting more water per hour on a hot and growing fire. When its died down I would switch to a longer line for mop up when the ground workers want water on hotspots and the bucket can be positioned in the hover. This enables as much as possible of the load to saturate one spot without fanning the embers.
I tend to fly with the door off and use a mirror. The mirror is useful for filling up on a shorter line and watching the electrical connections, but in my case, accuracy did improve somewhat with my head outside.

Capn Notarious

22nd Nov 2002, 13:43

Considering the situation with the firefighters.
Are any United Kingdom helicopter pilots trained, to use hanging water buckets? The big red ones and not those 2 gallon things seen at Helicopter championships.
How much water could a Gazelle lift.

ShyTorque

22nd Nov 2002, 15:44

I used to do this in a previous job, using different sized buckets of up to 600 gallons against forest, scrubland and grass fires.

We occasionally got asked to put out fires in wooden buildings, with some success but this method of water application would be of of only very limited use in domestic fires, if that's the sort of thing you are thinking of.

For example, most buildings on fire but worth saving still have an intact roof so the water rolls off. It can also be VERY hazardous to the aircraft and those beneath, bearing in mind that 600 gallons of water weighs 6000lbs plus the bucket.

I have the Gazelle on my licence and used to instruct on it; although I never flew a version with a hook I don't honestly think it would be powerful enough to lift enough water to do anything much more than to make a token effort.

widgeon

22nd Nov 2002, 17:51

saw a pic some time ago of a helicopter demo with a fire hose beeing sprayed into a building , somewhere from the west of Canada I think.

rotorboy

22nd Nov 2002, 18:25

Interesting link: http://www.erickson-aircrane.com/firefighting.asp

go to water cannon.....

RB

Randy_g

22nd Nov 2002, 18:35

ShyTorque is right, the amount of water the Gazelle would be able to carry wouldn't be very much. SEI (who makes the Bambi Bucket http://www.sei-ind.com/sei/seii1114.htm) recommends a 90 imp gal 110 us gal bucket (430 Litre).

Cheers

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/naughty.gif Randy_G

http://randyspics.tripod.ca/gifs/man_grilling_hamburgers_sm_wht.gif

Specnut727

15th Jan 2003, 01:00

I'm not a helicopter pilot, so I hope someone can explain this for me.

During recent bushfires in Australia there has been a lot of publicity about the use of helicopters. My question relates to the fairly rapid changes in weight as water is collected or dumped.

I think dumping water quickly would be OK, as the 'excess' lift would just cause the aircraft to climb if the pilot didn't compensate by reducing the collective. It may be a good thing to climb anyway.

I think filling an Erickson S-64 with 9,000 kg of water in about 40 seconds would be a bit more tricky. Does the pilot need to compensate for the sudden change manually, or is there some automatic system which helps him ? I imagine that it would get pretty busy combining all the controls to maintain a steady hover during filling.

Any info which may help satisfy my curiosity on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

John Eacott

15th Jan 2003, 01:40

It's just another aspect of flying that gets compensated for. Dropping at a constant height is important, so a natural reduction on the collective keeps the machine steady. Filling a bucket is the same as lifting a load, with constant collective pull. Tank fill is slower than a bucket fill, and most of the time the tank fill will be stopped when the hover torque gets to about max less 5-10%, giving reserve to translate away from the water source.

S64 fills in about 30 seconds with the donkey D., about 18 seconds with the boom arm. Since the boom arm is dragged across the water surface, it's similar to lifting a load, just keep pulling power.

Specnut727

15th Jan 2003, 03:46

Thanks very much for your reply John. That's exaxctly what I wanted to know.

murdock

15th Jan 2003, 05:37

I am just about to finish my FAA Commercial and CFI/CFII ratings in helicopters (Scweizer 300CB and R22) and would like to know does anyone have any advice as to what path (career wise) I should take in order to become a firefighter helicopter pilot. Doesn't matter where it would involve working in the world. Something I have always dreamed of and hope to become some day.
Thanks for any help anybody has.

helmet fire

15th Jan 2003, 08:20

Spec,

To add to John's comments, the fill and release is usually a gentle manouevre particularly with a belly tank. For example, . You might go from an empty hover power setting of say 45% to a full power setting of say 95% to leave you a bit of margin to get off the water. In other words, when you fill over the 40 seconds, you are applying say 50% of your torque progressively over the 40 seconds as you get heavier. During a lift off from the ground to the hover, you might apply 50% torque in just a few seconds to get airborne.

You can be accidently rough with the bucket filling though. (Of course I never have ;) ;) ;) ) If you pull up too quickly, you can snatch the load by jerking it from a slack line to taught. This "shock loading" can be quite rough, but is not as severe as doing the same thing during a normal load. That is because a normal load is either weight on or off the hook, but the water supports the bucket as it is pulled out, and can bob up and down in a bit thereby lessening the shock loading.

Releasing takes a finite time from both bucket and bellty tank and causes little abrupt change. If you accidently punch the whole bucket off rather than release the water (of course I never have ;) ;) :D ) then you do get quite a jerk.

Ascend Charlie

15th Jan 2003, 08:26

If you punch the bucket off, the jerk is behind the cyclic!:o

fu 24 950

15th Jan 2003, 12:15

Ascend Charlie,
if you punch off, the jerk is behind the cyclic.....
Be careful, as the saying goes, "those who have and those who are about too"

paco

15th Jan 2003, 12:24

Nothing specific - in most companies it's just one of the jobs a pilot has to do, but I would concentrate on slinging, so you want a company that gets their boots muddy (not too many in UK). The rest of the training involves sex and booze :)

Phil

inthegreen

16th Jan 2003, 04:20

Hi Murdock:
One way would be to first build your TT up to 1,500 hrs instructing, about two years at a busy school. After that there's a couple of things you could do. #1 Apply to Columbia Helicopters in Portland to be a co-pilot. During the summer they fight fires all over the Western US in Heavies, which is the best job on a fire. After you've spent a few years with them, they'll put you in command of a light aircraft, (eg. H500 or 206L) hauling chokers. A few years after that you can be commanding a BV/KV107 logging and fire-fighting. It's the best of the Heavy lift world, log all fall, winter and spring, fight fires all summer. You won't face layoffs or loss of contracts either.

Option #2 is to go to Temsco in Alaska or Papillon in the Grand Canyon and fly tours for two years. (Contact Eric Eichner at Temsco, Chuck Rush at Papillon) At that point, they may bring you on as a utility pilot and put you on a fire contract somewhere, but it will be in a light aircraft (eg H500, AS350 or B206L). You can still have fun on a fire if you're the first one there, but once the mediums or heavies show up forget about throwing water. You'll be the mapping ship or Air Attack, or occasionally you'll sling cubies into a crew. If fire-fighting is your goal, go all the way into heavies.

Just my opinion though. Ask around, see what other ideas you get.

John Eacott

16th Jan 2003, 09:58

AC,

On a serious side, there have been a lot of bucket drops this season, most of them equipment failures, rather than pilot error. We always fly with the cargo master Off, but have had two uncommanded releases earlier this season, which we tracked down to an inherent hook fault, when NSW NPWS BK also had two identical uncommanded releases.

Anyone using a Breeze A45L or similar, beware. It is possible for it to "auto release" when the load on the hook is less than 100lb, which can happen in turbulence, or putting the bucket into the water. We have scrapped the hook (as have NPWS) and have had no further problems. Breeze no longer support the hook, ref. Service Information Letter dated 26th April 2002.

murdock

16th Jan 2003, 19:04

Thanks paco and inthegreen - both of those options sound pretty cool. It seems that its always a case of getting to the 1000-1500TT mark as an instructor. Then move from there. Definitely the first option sounds exactly like what I would like to do - now its just having to do anything to get there.

Cheers.

ATPMBA

17th Jan 2003, 11:18

Check out Chroman Helicopters (possible misspelling) in the Pacific Northwest. About two years ago a fellow I knew went to work for them with a background like yours with only 500 hours TT.

Jcooper

22nd Aug 2003, 11:49

This may (probably is) a stupid question but why would a company spend 10 million dollars on one firehawk instead of getting 9 Astars or the like for fire work? Wouldn't it be better to have 9 guys dropping water at a constant rate (think chain with buckets in civil war days) instead of one guy dropping one huge load? Also I think this would make more since in the fact that you would be able to more easily spread out your attack and not have to just concentrate on one area. Also I realize the firehawk can dump much more per sortie but wouldnt 9 astars be able to dump the same amount combined per sortie?

autosync

22nd Aug 2003, 12:59

Good point,

But when a Massive Bush fire breaks out the states governer just wants to put the fire out as quickly as possible, to avoid any political fallout, so they hire as many FireHawks from different states to quell it ASAP.
I know some Firehawks that travel halfway across the U.S each week to differnet fires, during the season, I don't think a company could justify haveing 20 pilots off season.

Maybe I am wrong and far from an expert.

helmet fire

23rd Aug 2003, 17:37

jc:
good question - youre not from NSW in Oz are you??:}
In NSW, they though for many years that 10 X 206s were the answer despite the rest of the world operating larger machines, and now they have a completely opposite view - only big machines!

IMHO, the truth is somewhere in between - different machines offer different capabilities. Although 9 AS350s seem like a good idea, they will be unable to put anywhere near the same amount of water on a fire as one AirCrane, nor will they be able to do it for less cents per litre in operating costs. But probably the most important reason is that the larger volume of water when dropped in one hit has a vastly greater effect than the same amount of water dropped in 9 seperate drops. This is entirely due to the turbulance and heat of the fire dissapating smaller drops, and only allowing larger volumes to penetrate into the fire front. In fact in larger fires, an AS350 drop may be entirely useless (apart from the revenue it is earning!:8 :8 )

BUT - have a minor unserviceability with your one Crane, and you have lost all capability, where as one 350 down means 8 more to deliver water. This is why I said that the truth is "somewhere in between". Having both on hand is the answer.

There are some other aspects of employing a variety of machines that I posted in another thread in response to news that NSW were going to get rid of buckets under smaller machines (unlike the rest of the world - again!). Read this if you are intrested:

Page 2 has the info (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97608&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)

NickLappos

23rd Aug 2003, 18:02

Let me rephrase your question, Jcooper, in a way that might explain the answer:

Why would a person put a fire out with one pilot when he could employ 9?

The science of Operations analysis helps determine the best ways to answer such operational questions as How Big? How Many? What capabilities?
In this case, the critical mass of water is one requirement, and the fire determines that. Dousing enough area to stop the fire from jumping the wet spot is a real issue.

Besides that, the cost of the system goes down with size, which is usually based on the gross weight of the aircraft, and the cost of crewing it, which is a per-person cost.
After purchase price, the people needed to run the system are the biggest expense. IN fact, the two are about equal when we divide the price out over the life of the vehicle. That's why supertankers were invented, why modern airliners have 300 to 700 seats, and why double and triple trucks are making their appearance. Fewer crew per passenger or ton of cargo.

Heliport

24th Aug 2003, 03:03

http://www.canadianaviation.com/gallery/pictures/lnk632%280%29.jpg

Time Out

25th Aug 2003, 01:26

The Florida Division of Forestry’s reasons for acquiring one seem to support NickLappos who said, among other reasons, that:

Quote:

… the critical mass of water is one requirement, and the fire determines that. Dousing enough area to stop the fire from jumping the wet spot is a real issue.

The article mentions the reasons include the ability to drop large quantities of water in specific areas.

See: http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/news/082403/Local/ST009.shtml

griffo

25th Aug 2003, 14:11

Heliport, where did you get that photo, and when??? That's the very machine that I'm on right now!!!
Nice pic.
Helmet fire, good answer. Everyone at Superior, Erickson, and other large medium/heavy operators value the use of light and medium helicopters. No one type can efficiently handle a fire on their own, if all can work together, the fire can be controlled quicker, and at less cost.
Volume of water is important in a drop on a large fire, as any misting in the drop will evaporate before it reaches the ground.

Jcooper

26th Aug 2003, 10:14

You guys should drop enormous water ballons inorder to avoid misting from evaporating :)

spinningwings

26th Aug 2003, 19:04

Actually the misting due to evaporation is usefull .... obviously if evaporation has occured then the local atmosphere has been cooled ..... which is part of trying to tame the fire !!! ... if your working in conjunction with ground crews they are particulaly happy if you can occassionally COOL them down ...notwithstanding that water droplets in the vicinity also reduce smoke/particulates in the atmosphere ....they like that too!

There lots to this firefighting ...not all of it obvious!

Cheers

Heliport

29th Aug 2003, 07:57

http://www.erickson-aircrane.com/press/Image57.jpg

Designed to fight fires in high rise buidlings, the Water Cannon delivers a horizontal stream of water or foam mix up to 160 feet at a rate of 300 gallons per minute). With a full tank, the cannon system is capable of maintaining the 300 gpm flow for up to eight minutes.

http://www.erickson-aircrane.com/press/Image55.jpg

Hoverman

3rd Nov 2003, 09:34

Just killing time on a night job and started wondering how effective helicopters are in a firefighting role.

I've read the threads about firefighting in Oz, Canada, the US and so on but I haven't done or seen it myself.
And do small helis have any useful role?

Bronx

3rd Nov 2003, 16:52

Good questions.
I haven't done any firefighting and would be interested in reading comments by people who have. I'd like to add some more questions.

How is it done?

Are drops made directly on the fires or on surroundign areas to stop the fire spreading, or both?

Are the techniques the same in all countries?

Ascend Charlie

3rd Nov 2003, 16:54

Depends on many factors - the wind speed, terrain, grass or pine forest and so on. Light helos can vary between hugely effective to a p1ss in the bucket. In the early days, they were the only option, but now there are lots of specialist big-lifters, so a 206 type is relegated to mopping up the smoking logs and to carrying the decision-makers and the flir cameras and the plotters.

Everybody can get a jersey, but the biggest crumbs on the table go to the biggest eaters.

B Sousa

3rd Nov 2003, 22:00

As posted above it depends on a lot of things. If its small and remote, sometimes helicopters are the the only way. As to the big fires, many things are not effective untill things such as weather and allocation of equipment are met to start controlling the fire properly.
As with the recent fires Im sure for a time most of the helicopters were just trying to save what they could and did a great job. The thing was way out of anyones control. Mother nature does that at times.
So if its your house in the path, Im sure you would be greatful for a bucket load of water......

paco

4th Nov 2003, 21:58

A lot depends on whether the pilots are on overtime.

I have found you need to get down and dirty and just soak everything - this is obviously not recommended when it's really blazing, but if you're doing jumpspots and chicoes, it's very effective (one tip - when hover-dropping in the Astar, get the target centrally in the last inch of the floor window - 100% every time - the higher oyu get the more you need to come forward)

Phil

LMCCOY

5th Nov 2003, 06:14

I have been firefighting with a helicopter in the US for 15 years. Helicopters are very effective fire fighting tools. The larger Type 1 helicopters can put up to 2,000 US Gal. of water at a time on a fire. A medium , or Type 2 helicopter will drop up to 400 gallons at a time. Besides water dropping, the helicopter can move firefighters, and do external load work.
In many places in the US, the helicopter is the only way to move people and equipment efficiently. They are expensive to operate, but the efficiency makes the cost bearable.
The pilots who do this work are very well trained and experienced. The flying is done at high altitudes, in high temperatures, in low visibility, with very small power margins. Only the best pilots can operate in this high stress environment for loong periods of time.
In my opinion, the pilots who do this work are some of most professional and talented pilots I have ever seen.

Dynamic Component

5th Nov 2003, 06:42

I would have to say that the B206 JR does okay when it comes to mopping up.BUT for fighting a blazing fire I quote AC-they are as afective as "a p1ss in the bucket".The smallest machine for the nitty gritty stuff should be a B206L3 atleast.

But Then Again-That's just my opinion:} :ok:

reynoldsno1

5th Nov 2003, 07:53

Used to be involved in this in NZ a few years ago at a provincial airport surrounded by a large amount of bush.
Baisc equipemnt consists of an underslung water carrier called a "monsoon bucket". The buckets has a series of holes in the side, each of which can be closed by a rubber seal. The number of holes closed will determine the capacity/weight of the bucket according to the underslung capability of the helicopter. The water is released by a cable attached to a valve at the bottom of the bucket.
Works well on localised fires, but probably of limited use against fires with a wide front...

EESDL

5th Nov 2003, 23:37

Wessex proved very useful in mopping up after the Big Chief's BBQ got out of control in Akronelli

Tokoloshe

6th Nov 2003, 01:03

Have spent several years doing fire-fighting in South Africa, firstly with the spotter(bird-dog) a/c and then the fixed wing bombers (Thrush and Dromader) and for the last three years with a Bell 407 with an 800 litre Bambi bucket.
As long as there is a good (accessible) supply of water close by then even the small helos are very effective in the right hands. Recently did a fire where we managed 96 loads in an afternoon. Multiply that by 800 litres and it works out to around 75 tonnes of water and retardant. At the fire in question the airstrip was only 3nm away and the helo averaged 8 drops to 1 compared to the fixed wing bombers. The maths is easy.
If the water is more than 5 minutes away then the effectiveness drops and becomes questionable re. the small helos.
Wx Conditions, as well as terrain also play a large part; on a "Red" day, only the Mil8 has any real impact on fire behaviour.
Bert you were there when we came to help out with the Entabeni fire this year. I'm sure you would agree that helos were the only viable option that day. Unfortunately I got recalled back to NLP and missed the party that night, was hoping to have a few cold ones with you...

:D

DynamicallyUnstable

6th Nov 2003, 03:11

Does anyone know of any helicopter fire fighting websites?

DIVINE WIND

6th Nov 2003, 03:32

Try this

http://www.lacofd.org/airforce.htm

:cool:

Scattercat

6th Nov 2003, 06:30

Have done a bit in Aus' (Canberra last season was interesting!)
As others have said ... sometimes the helo is the only (best) way and they are effective. Realy works best when supported with good ground crews though. One thing I noted though was that the "heavy lifters" can & do cause a lot of damage at times with topsoil stripping. On steep terrain, dumping several tonne's of water in a concentrated area has quite an impact on the topsoil. Not an issue when weighed against life & property, but is when "environmental conservation" is the point.

Fltpro

7th Nov 2003, 02:01

This is a response I posted to the same question on another aviation forum on the net.

1. Helicopters are extremely helpful at fighting fires, even small ("Type 3") helicopters, such as Hughes 500, AS-350, BH-206B's and L's. The principle role of small helicopters on fires is, at first, "initial attack." That is, when the fire is first reported, the helicopter is launched with as many as 4-5 fire-fighters plus pilot. The pilot lands the fire-fighters somewhere that is mutually acceptable, the bucket is hooked up and the pilot goes to fetch water while the fire-fighters start fighting the fire on the ground. In areas with sparse water supplies, helicopters may be equipped with a belly-mounted tank for the water, which is filled from a tanker truck or a little foldable tank set up near the fire.

A fire needs three things to survive: fuel, heat and oxygen. Helicopters fight fires by taking the heat out of the fire and reducing the temperature of the fuel below the combustible range.

With light fuels such as fast-moving grass fires, a LongRanger (L-3) with a 100-130 gallon bucket can often with one bucket load of water, put out from 50 to 100 feet of fire line in light fuels with a fast trail drop (moving forward at 20-40 kts).

Likewise, a couple of strategically-placed (vertical) hover drops may cool down a burning snag sufficiently to allow a crew to take a chain saw, drop it and buck it up. Take a larger helicopter like a Bell 205/Huey/212/214 ("Type 2") with a 300-350 gallon bucket and the effect is magnified. Still larger "Type 1" helicopters such as SkyCranes, Vertol 107's and 234's (Chinooks) can lift as much as 1500 gallons or more of water at time. That's a lot of VERY heavy rain if you're on the receiving end.

So, on most fires, helicopters don't actually "put the fire out." But, they support the ground fire-fighters to cool things down to manageable level. After the fire is established (such as the current ones down in SoCal), not only do the helicopters do initial attack, but then the helicopters go into a support role, moving fire-fighters here and there, and doing bucket work to cool the fire down and help retard its spread. Also, food, water and supplies are slung in to the fire fighters on a long line (usually 100-150') or, in grasslands, perhaps a short line.

Moreover, some helicopters are equipped with an aerial ignition device that dispenses ping-pong balls containing potassium permanganate and glycol, which about 3-5 minutes after they are mixed and dispensed, burst into flames to start back fires to "fight fire with fire." Some others still sling the old style 55 gallon drum filled with Aluma Gel and mogas, which when mixed together makes a civilian version of napalm. They have a cockpit control for an ignition/drip rate mechanism - same purpose: starting back fires. Or, controlled burns during the "off" season.

2. Most helicopters just drop water. However, increasingly, USFS and CDF contracts require the helicopter to be equipped with tanks for dispensing a chemical additive called "Phoscheck" which is a fire retardant foaming agent that gets mixed with the water. Most medium helicopters such as Hueys, BH-212's, 214's and those types carry a "foamy" tank.

When the bucket is dipped, the pilot punches a button or flips a switch and a little pump injects a user-selectable amount of foam concentrate into the water, usually 3-5 seconds-worth (maybe a quart or so) and as the copter flies to the target, the swirling of the water from the wind flowing over the bucket tends to mix the foam concentrate a bit. As the pilot drops the water, as it gushes out of the bottom of the bucket, it further mixes the foam concentrate with the water and it becomes sort of like watery shaving cream, thereby sticking to whatever it hits ... the thought being that it's better to have it stick for a while rather than immediately flow off the burning object and into the ground or down the hill (or tree).

Although the Red-dyed fire retardant has been tried in helicopter "tankers" now and again, no one seems to be using it on the Left Coast. The red fire retardant is ammonium nitrate (basically fertilizer) but is a great fire retardant. Because of the need for elaborate mixing apparatus and storage facilities, etc. it is mostly suited for airplane dispersal, where they can fly back to the same location each time to reload. Portable/mobile mixing and dispensing units have been tried over the years but never caught on for helicopters.

3. Of course there are limitations. Pilots who fly on fires (often those who log, also) are very familiar with operating in the HV curve. And with being constantly on the edge of, occasionally in, and quickly out of, settling with power. It can be very interesting if one attempts to drop the load of water with a heavily-laden helicopter while flying uphill and the bucket malfunctions, refusing to drop the water, thereby inviting settling with power. The winds can be strange and often the wind in one location is opposite what it is a few hundred yards away. Flying on fires helps develop one's sense of where the wind is and often knowing this well, and the effects of terrain on wind makes the difference between "riding the updraft" up the side of a mountain, or having to circle to climb up.

One can't fly too low when dropping water, unless it is a fairly speedy trail drop otherwise the rotor wash will fan the fire, cover the ground troops with hot, sooty debris and not endear the pilot with anyone on the ground, especially the Incident Commander (the "boss" of the fire). Since we mostly fly with the door(s) off when doing bucket work, it is necessary for a fire pilot to have pretty good vertical reference flying skills when dipping, dropping and doing external load work. The typical Type 2 helicopter (Huey sized) has the bucket on a 100+ foot long line.

Naturally, it demands a pretty good amount of attention to monitor as may as three or four frequencies simultaneously, keep an eye on the gauges, look out for other traffic on the fire and always be looking for an "out" in case of an emergency. It's demanding, occasionally exciting, rewarding flying, plus there's a lot of comraderie among those who fly in the fire services.

I hope this helps you understand a bit more how we fight fires from helicopters. Tailwinds.

Barannfin

7th Nov 2003, 11:34

Great post man, welcome to Rotorheads.:ok:

MightyGem

7th Nov 2003, 16:16

Small helicopters can be useful in putting out minor grass fires. I spent around an hour, many years ago, just hovering along the edge of a large grass fire, simply blowing it out.

Heliport

8th Nov 2003, 09:06

Fltpro

Welcome to Rotorheads and thanks for a superb first post - the first of many I hope.

Heliport

craniac

8th Nov 2003, 23:57

I am sure you have read the thread so ditto... check out www.ericksonaircrane.com for a shot of what they do, all over the world as I understand.

I am sure there are other sites, this is just one that I have seen.

MD900 Explorer

9th Nov 2003, 20:23

fltpro

A comprehensive and interesting read and definately enlightening.

I could but help to think in your last paragraphs, when you were talking about limitations and hazards, that the helo's that have been brought into the thread are jet helo's. The 206, 350, 212 etc.

Mostly single engined helo's. A consideration.... Just like the fire on the ground needs the three elements in the fire triangle to keep it burning, so does the jet engine.

I understand that fire fighting is best done by helicopters (as the maths show - Tokoloshe) but there must be associated hazards that fltpro did not mention, like flameouts. I would suspect that even in a twin there is a good chance of a double flameout.

I mean there must be so much going on in the pilots mind, and then having to deal with an emergency like that... I take my hat off to you guys. Keep the good work up. :ok:

MD900 Explorer

Heliport

5th Dec 2003, 08:20

There's a good article in the current issue of Heli-Ops about the risks of flame-out when fire-fighting.

Lama Bear

6th Dec 2003, 05:14

http://www.ericksondownunder.com/

Any downunder fire pilots care to comment on their experience with this system?

Weight, reliability, cost, truth in advertising, etc.

We are always looking for an alternative to the Bambi.

Jim

Lama Bear

6th Dec 2003, 05:14

John Eacott

6th Dec 2003, 07:09

Jim,

PM me for the details. Our's was the only medium using the sling tank last season, so we had a fair swag of teething problems, but they are just about solved. Got the latest mod. bucket last month, and tested it last week.
The fifth pic in the gallery was me on the Hydro Majestic fire last December.

Concept is excellent, especially the selectable load (increase water lift with fuel burn), the selectable drops, and the self contained foam system. Many of the troops thought there was a bucket fault when we'd drop half a load in one spot, then the rest elsewhere! Obviously packs down into significantly less space than an equivalent Bambi + Sacksafoam, and not having the Sacksafoam on board is another plus. Flies well, now quite stable during drops, and fills quickly, including bottom fill in shallow water. More wiring needed to control the system (6 core cable to carry all the functions down to the control head), but the latest cockpit control includes a download function, giving a print out of number of drops and amount dropped, handy to include on those daily/weekly reports to the fire service :cool:

We still carry a Bambi as a spare, until the system is totally proven, then I'll get a second DUFAS. Sorry, Sling Tank ;)

Heliport

7th Dec 2003, 23:16

Impressive picture John.

I thought we ought to see it.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/Hydro%20Majestic%20fire.jpg

belly tank

8th Dec 2003, 10:10

nice photo john,

I was about 2 helicopters behind you in that shot, at one stage we had 6 helo's if my memory serves me ( 2x 117, as350, b206, Crane, and a K-max) working that one spot, it was very close to the building as you see.

worst still we were all staying in the hotel there, and all our clothes and gear was in the room!!

it was a hectic afternoon and im sure john agrees with me.

John Eacott

8th Dec 2003, 11:38

BT,

The hotel manager was in all our rooms, pulling the curtains for us, and burnt his hand quite badly when he touched the glass.

The complimentary bottle of beer from the hotel was such a magnanimous gesture ;) :rolleyes:

Dynamic Component

8th Dec 2003, 11:52

John,

I hope the beer was atleast COLD:}

kiwimike

9th Dec 2003, 12:18

:ok: THE BEER WAS COLD AND TASTED GREAT AFTER A FUN DAY FIGHTING FIRES.
CHEERS MIKE.
PS. A WARM BEER IS JUST AS GOOD AS A COLD BEER WHEN YOU DONT HAVE A COLD BEER.:= :} :}

Gordy

6th Oct 2010, 22:38

Just had this one e-mailed to me by the lookout fire fighter on a ridgeline when I did this burnout two days ago... This is the Giraffe Creek fire on the S.E. Idaho/Wyoming border, about two hours after the pic above with the crane and L4 in it.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pocatello%2010/GiraffeFireandBurn089.jpg

407 too

6th Oct 2010, 22:59

why ping pong balls instead of drip torch ??

Gordy

7th Oct 2010, 00:57

407 too

why ping pong balls instead of drip torch ??

We have both at our disposal as can been seen in the previous pictures. The particular piece we burnt off was to hold the fire to the South. There was a lot of dead and down in the unit, and we had made an initial decision to not burn that day. Then with about 2 hours of daylight left, the conditions became perfect for a burnout....this was on a Sunday, and did not have a fuel truck close by with gas and diesel, but due to the fuel type, we figured it would work with the balls... As it turned out, the balls worked just fine, we got a head fire ripping along the slope and were able to slow it down and stop it with a saw line, that we black lined by hand, wetted down with the crane and thickened with two lines of balls.

In this next pic, you can see the main head fire on the left, and our holding line just taking on the right with the crane about to wet line and hold it. The two fires sucked in and surprisingly, it held on the ridge top.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pocatello%2010/IMG_4565.jpg

My guess is that most people have no clue what I just explained.....But it was a near perfect burnout.

Gordy

7th Oct 2010, 05:53

Earl....

Will try to put something together in the next day or so..... My bed is calling me.....

In the meantime, here is a link to a blog I keep of firefighting with a helicopter in the US. I am "G-man", there is also "Mike", who flies "Panaca Jane", an Astar on contract in Nevada. You will also see "Soccermom", who is a smokejumper pilot with the BLM, she flies the "White minivan"...all of us have threads on here....

The Adventures of LaFawnduh---A Firefighting Helicopter (http://www.chickenwingscomics.com/forum/index.php?topic=889.0)

Gordy

Mods....although I have linked to another site---tis not advertising....

9Aplus

7th Oct 2010, 06:20

FYI
Something different:
3dklFwnoHfU
that was more than 10 years ago....

and soon,
see next year on MAKS 2011 :ok:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww304/d9aplus/safety/Ka32v_sm.jpg (http://helifor.eu/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=7)

moscovite

7th Oct 2010, 10:12

We are having this available for 25 years now - but carrying water load inside for complete flexability to any locations.

http://www.aviastar.org/foto/gallery/mil/mi-6_40.jpg

9Aplus

7th Oct 2010, 12:34

Dear Moscovite...

That is true,
but there is certain disadvantages of that old (now non existing) solution...like:

- obsolete Mi6
- short use of tank, continuous stream
- cannot shot horizontally because of own helicopter downdraft
- efficient range is limited in real life it is like piss on fire...

All that is resolved with new system... and EMERCOM (MČS) will
be proud user....

PS Main designer of new system on Ka32 was on board of FF Mi6 during Chernobil times
:ok:

9Aplus

7th Oct 2010, 13:00

This was 3 years ago in Adriatic.... all trucks on RoRo was totally burned,
wreckage remain without power and crew, floating...
MPidwJo7ELQ

Looking for solution... :confused:

And this was in Busan, South Korea few days ago...
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/001/2010/10/01/PYH2010100104000005100_P2.jpg (http://koreabridge.net/post/haeundae-highrise-fire-busan-marine-city-burns)
fire started on 4th and ended on top....
now we can offer real solution :cool:

Pandalet

7th Oct 2010, 14:31

Gordy,

Thanks for posting that, I'm loving it! And plenty to keep me going for a while, too :ok:. Sadly, the in-depth coverage of all aspects of fire-flying on those boards means I've now had to add another type of flying I want to do to my list - that looks like an excellent challenge, and a heap-load of fun, with good people.

One question for the experienced smokies: what's a ping-pong ball?

Hell Man

7th Oct 2010, 15:16

What's a ping-pong ball?

These are one of two primary aerial ignition devices, the other being the helitorch. Ping pong balls are small spheres containing potassium permanganate which, just prior to release, are injected with ethylene glycol or glycerine creating an exothermic reaction which, after about 30 seconds, sets the spheres on fire.

The spheres or 'ping pong balls' are released through a dispenser and are more efficient than using ground burning methods. Ping pong balls are generally used when developing mosaic burn patterns.

http://www.nps.gov/fire/images/photos/pub_fir09_wrst_pingpong1a.jpg

'Ping pong ball' dispenser

http://www.nps.gov/fire/images/photos/pub_fir09_wrst_pingpong1c.jpg

The exothermic reaction in progress

http://www.nps.gov/fire/images/photos/pub_fir09_wrst_pingpong2a.jpg

Ping pong balls creating a small line of fires which grow together to burn out fuel

http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/FileUsfs-ah1-N107Z-bar-complex-fire.jpg

Firewatch Cobra used for aerial control but not used in dropping ping pong balls!

Hope this helps.

HM

Pandalet

8th Oct 2010, 07:50

Thanks for that, much clearer now. The pic of the cobra helped especially :ok:

Hell Man

8th Oct 2010, 08:10

That was thrown in coz as with the ping pong balls - it is hot! :E

9Aplus

27th Nov 2010, 18:34

Sky approach is only feasible way over 10th floor...the rest is possible too.

Recent Shangai and Busan tower fires show clearly that world need solution. Right way to go :ok:

Impulse shoot out of helicopter in hover approx 40 m distance (through downwash)
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww304/d9aplus/safety/Snapshot.jpg

Gordy

26th Apr 2011, 16:22

To further supplement Hell Man's post---here is a news item about me from the other day: The video will not embed so just click to watch:

Prescribed fire on the Mark Twain Forest (http://www.kspr.com/news/local/kspr-health-department-warns-large-prescribed-burns-in-mark-twain-national-forest-affecting-air-quality-20110413,0,3217294.story)

Emily Rittman, Ben Knaup Reporter, Photographer 6:18 p.m. CDT, April 13, 2011

Taney County, Mo—

Winds are carrying smoke plumes from two large prescribed burns in the Mark Twain National Forest near the Taney and Ozark county line. The Springfield-Greene County health department says the burns could affect nearby county’s air quality indexes. The department says the smoke filled air may be unhealthy for the elderly and anyone with certain health issues.
From high above the forest a helicopter started fires down below. Crews are burning about 6,000 acres at Big Creek and Three Sisters near Ava. “In the helicopter we have a machine attached to the helicopter and needles inject the balls," Helitack Supervisor Angie Ruble said. The golf ball sized spheres are filled with chemicals that ignite naturally about 20 seconds after they hit the ground. ATV’s with fire torches attached to the back and crews with dripping torches ignite outer fires while the helicopter ignites the center of the burn. "Over the decades we've had a lot of trees growing and a lot of brush taking over,” Ava/Cassville/Willow Springs District Ranger Jenny Farenbaugh said. “In some cases cedars are there and they tend to be invaders so we like to knock them out."
“Knock outs” leave plumes of smoke. “We take a good hard look at the direction of the wind speed and watch ventilation rates,” Farenbaugh said. “We like to see a lot of smoke dispersed versus one straight column blowing into a community or home. We try to do the best we can of course natures is in control.”

With no control of incoming breezes the Springfield-Greene County Health Department warns these winds are unhealthy for anyone with heart or long disease. “It’s like smoke on a fire but in a larger area it impacts the community of Springfield,” Air Quality Control Coordinator Brian Adams said. The health department’s air quality control division expects smoke to drift in early Wednesday evening and possibly over night. “It usually impacts the elderly and children with respiratory problems,” Adams said. “We just recommend they stay indoors and keep the air conditioning on.”
Those starting and maintaining the fires say all this is worth it. "We are mimicking the application of fire the way it used to be done either by natural cases lighting strikes or when Native Americans and pioneers put fire to the ground," Farenbaugh said.
According to the health department, particulate matter may contain fine particles that contain microscopic solids or liquid droplets that can become embedded into the lungs and cause serious health problems. Multiple scientific studies have linked particle pollution exposure to a variety of problems, including:

Increased respiratory symptoms such as irritated airways, coughing or difficulty breathing
Decreased lung function
Aggravated asthma
Development of chronic bronchitis
Irregular heartbeat
Nonfatal heart attacks
Premature death in people with heart or lung disease

If particulate matter continues to travel into the Springfield area, air quality levels could be elevated to the 'Slightly Unhealthy' or orange level. 'Slightly Unhealthy' levels of air quality could be potentially harmful for people with heart or lung disease, older adults and children. People that fall into these categories should avoid prolonged exposure or heavy exertion when air quality levels are elevated to 'Slightly Unhealthy' or orange levels.
The division of Air Quality Control will continue to monitor this situation and provide detailed updates on the quality of the air in the Springfield area. For more information, visit the website at www.springfieldmo.gov/health/air.html (http://www.springfieldmo.gov/health/air.html)

Gordy

20th Sep 2011, 17:48

A few videos from the last years to try and explain fire:

First off we fly to the fire:

u3Cbz3sKzME

Then we need to put firefighters on the ground:

WNTdvVYTEqE

We can supply them with all they need---food, tents saws etc..(This is just training video, but you get the idea):

nWcws5qWNwI

Then we need water....we can dip out of lakes:

QbQA17c2V5Q

If no lakes or rivers are around, we can set up a "pumpkin" and have it filled by a water tender:

ZiGuz5OakEc

We then drop on the fire line or start wet-lining:

oAZKkrQGHaw

If the guys on the ground need water for hose lines, we bring them 72 gallon Blivets and put them on ridges---they then gravity feed the hoses below:

AX9st8wnZZs

Next we may end up doing burnouts---basically either constructing a line or using a natural line, (road, river etc) and burning out the fuel between the line and the approaching fire. We can do it by hand or by "helitorch":

B359-jTq-24

I3cMabmUOf4

We also can use the "ping pong machine":

hvG9aezWYYE

Pandalet

21st Sep 2011, 08:37

Neat, thanks for those! Very interesting to see it all coming together :ok:

marios51

30th Apr 2012, 14:10

Hi,

I have read your article regarding your advices for forrest fires. I need your expert opinion for the folowing

a. what is the max load a fire helicopter can lift ( not necessary the bucket!!)

b. how close to a fire can be a helicopter hovering above. in your article you are mentioning that is dangerous ( then is not impossible ) and should be at least the twice the height of the trees in flames. Is this correct

Thanking you in advance

Marios

HeliStudent

10th May 2013, 19:21

yJ5A3xfyGRg&NR

In this video I was impressed by how much water the Blackhawk can carry. I found the following website Best Firefighting Helicopters. Compare, reviews & ratings. (http://helicopters.findthebest.com/d/t/Firefighting) but could not see details of the firefighting Blackhawk. How much weight can a Blackhawk usually carry? Is it one of the best helicopters for fire bombing?

In the video a Bell helicopter is dropping water as well and at one point it looks as if his blades are going into the smoke, is this normal?

Another question please, it is true that only 40 K-Max helicopters were built and why did they make it with a single seat? How do you train someone when they want to fly that type. Also, it is good at fighting fires?

Gordy

10th May 2013, 20:13

LA County FireHawks are fitted with 1,000 gallon tanks. Whether they fill them is another story---that would depend upon the elevation of the dip site and the temperature.

The comparison site you linked to does not show most of the helicopters used in firefighting. In the US, we typically use Sky Cranes, S-61's, K-max's and then Bell 212, 205, UH-1H, Long rangers, Jet Rangers and Astars. You will occasionally see some others too like the Fire Hawks.

Yes it is normal to fly through the smoke...do it all day long.. :)

There were 38 K-max produced, of which I think 13 have been written off in crashes. It is an aerial truck and there was no need to have two seats therefore was made as a single seat only. There is a provision to strap one person on each side of the aircraft for transportation, but they are out side the cabin. If you are going to fly a K-max, you will already know how to fly and no dual required.

You may be interested in this post to understand fire, check out the whole thread too:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/111399-helicopter-fire-fighting-merged-threads-5.html#post6709161

Ian Corrigible

10th May 2013, 20:35

Do they still use the Huskie for initial training prior to the K-MAX?

I/C

Gordy

10th May 2013, 20:52

Do they still use the Huskie for initial training prior to the K-MAX?

Nope..... On a similar note, this is the father of a friend of mine flying in the USAF, I met him a few years ago and he had some interesting stories:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/577121_3747887692018_1932569681_n.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/429353_3747913412661_567643863_n.jpg

SASless

11th May 2013, 01:19

There be a Husky at this museum in Olympia Washington.

HH-43 Huskie - Olympic Flight Museum Collection, Olympia WA (http://www.olympicflightmuseum.com/collection-HH-43Huskie.php)

The Olympic Flight Museum Collection includes a wide variety of vintage aircraft, including airplanes, jets, and helicopters. (http://www.olympicflightmuseum.com/collection.php)

Savoia

11th May 2013, 08:08

Gordy: Great shots! :ok:

HeliStudent

11th May 2013, 19:04

Gordy, thanks for the information. I actually tried looking for a general firefighting thread but the search only came up with specific fires.

Do you have any idea how many helicopters are used in the US for firefighting roughly? Just curious.

Gordy

12th May 2013, 06:50

Do you have any idea how many helicopters are used in the US for firefighting roughly?

Lots..... I would hazard a guess at a couple hundred in the US. ranging from the Type 1's, (cranes, s-61's, firehawks and K-max), down to the jet rangers doing burn outs and Helco....

My company has a 212, Huey, 2 X L4's and and Jet Ranger, and out sister company has a Huey, B3 astar, couple B2's, L3 and jet ranger----all are on fires during the season.

John Eacott

13th May 2013, 07:24

H35Im1PxX_I

Some interesting stuff after 3:00 :ok:

And a bit of aircrane stuff :cool:

Q8O7HTzbKaA

HeliStudent

13th May 2013, 11:27

Gordy thank you. 200 helicopters is incredible - more than some defence forces one imagines.

John - that first video is amazing! :ok: Heli fire fighting must be a great skill. The second video is blocked in the UK. :(

JohnDixson

13th May 2013, 14:11

HS, there are some decent videos here:

Erickson Air-Crane Videos | S-64 Aircrane Videos (http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/videos.php)

Gordy

13th May 2013, 15:03

Gordy thank you. 200 helicopters is incredible

My company has a Bell 212......not 200 + helicopters. On fires I would guess between 200 and 300 total each year.

We just came back fro the "Panther" fire in Northern California and it had 13 helicopters working it and 1,800 firefighters for just under 7,000 acres.

African Eagle

13th May 2013, 19:43

200 helicopters is incredible - more than some defence forces one imagines.

In my part of the world I can count the number of military helicopters owned by local governments on both hands, sometimes just one hand!

If you're going to get into the rotary business you should know that the US is an anomaly. Lots of stuff going on there that you won't see anywhere else plus they have the world's largest domestic helicopter population.

Another abnormal place is Russia, but you can't do much there unless you are married to a Russian or speak Russian or have a Russian passport, a bit like Brazil.

Anthony Supplebottom

14th May 2013, 14:43

but you can't do much there unless you are married to a Russian or speak Russian or have a Russian passport, a bit like Brazil.

You mean if I marry a Russian I can work in Brazil! :E

SASless

14th May 2013, 16:21

Marrying a Brazilian Women might work....but working in Russia would not.

newfieboy

14th May 2013, 22:44

How's about marry a Canadian girl, I did got me in. Well actually been here a few years flying but hey.....
You want fun and games lots of medium time, intermediate time on the end of a long line many hours a day avec a bucket try Canada on a busy year . I think biggest for me was Virginia Hills fire 98 season, 163,200+ hectares, same year Tall Cree even bigger I seem to recall and spent two seasons having fun on that one, burnt underground all winter go figure. Minds you had some sad times, lost a few good buddies and watched helplessly as many a fine value burns after spending many hours trying to stem the tide, Kelowna comes to mind. It's long days, very tiring in low vis, very dense traffic, multiple FM, VHF, UHF freqs to monitor. But at the end of the season it gives me I know, time to reflect on a job well done and a feeling that we actually accomplished something. Best of all the commardarie of the crews and the lifelong friends made. Knowing Gordy I'm sure he feels the same.

It's the start of fire season here in Canada, always Mother Nature has the last say, so unpredictable. Be safe out there boys/gals. We'll talk on freq soon I'm sure.

HeliStudent

16th May 2013, 21:01

http://newsbcpcol.stb.s-msn.com/amnews/i/98/5282c5d3166929d232e71ffa441c84/_h353_w628_m6_otrue_lfalse.jpg

Bell fighting fires in Santa Ana today.

Fire forces evacuation of campus, homes in Calif. (http://news.msn.com/us/fire-forces-evacuation-of-campus-homes-in-calif)

Gordy

17th May 2013, 01:12

HeliStudent:

Bell fighting fires in Santa Ana today.

You should really read stuff a little closer. This was two weeks ago on May 2nd. My sister company had a helicopter on that fire.

There is currently only one major fire in California and that is the Grand Fire. (http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=785)

I have 4 helicopters sitting on standby for the calls right now.

newfieboy

How ya been....? Yes I most certainly feel the same way. Ramping up for more fires as we type..... You coming south this year? If so catch you on a blaze somewhere no doubt....enjoy your season.

HeliStudent

19th May 2013, 08:07

There is currently only one major fire in California and that is the Grand Fire. (http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=785)

Pictures in the News | May 17, 2013 - Framework - Photos and Video - Visual Storytelling from the Los Angeles Times (http://framework.latimes.com/2013/05/17/pictures-in-the-news-667/#/3)

HeliStudent

29th Jun 2013, 08:28

Heli Fire Training goes wrong (http://mtstandard.com/news/state-and-regional/helicopter-crashes-in-river-pilots-escape-without-injury/article_f580dd12-e066-11e2-90bf-0019bb2963f4.html?comment_form=true)

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/mtstandard.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/5/32/5323f1ca-e067-11e2-8145-0019bb2963f4/51ce4cdb952c2.preview-620.jpg

A firefighting helicopter practicing bucket drops in the Clark Fork River crashed into the water Friday afternoon, requiring one pilot to swim to shore while emergency crews assisted the second to safety.

The Missoula Rural Fire District responded to reports of the downed helicopter shortly after 1 p.m. Witnesses living at the Wagon Wheel Trailer Court — off Big Flat Road northwest of Missoula — saw the aircraft go down behind a bank of cottonwood trees and enter the river.

“There was one pilot still inside the helicopter when we arrived,” said Missoula County Sheriff’s Deputy Robert Kennedy. “The other pilot was on the shore across the river.”

Kennedy said both occupants were safe and suffered no injuries in the crash. Officials said it was unknown what caused the helicopter to go down, although Kennedy said the pilot reported mechanical troubles.

The helicopter, identified as Bell model 206L-3, is apparently owned by a company in Lewiston, Idaho. The pilot was working to earn his annual U.S. Forest Service recertification to conduct bucket work on wildfires.

“The pilot said he was doing a recertification with the Forest Service to keep up his license,” Kennedy said. “That’s what they were doing today.”

Locating the helicopter posed an initial challenge, and the crash site proved difficult to reach.

Kennedy said officials, including those with the helicopter company, are working to determine how to extract the aircraft from the river.

Brent Christopherson, assistant chief of the Missoula Rural Fire District, said no fuel appeared to be leaking into the river, as the helicopter remained intact.

Winnie

29th Jun 2013, 16:33

Hardly a crash....

Swim to shore, must been one heckuva short dude...

Looks like they nicked the tail boom when they touched tho!

Cheers
H.

SASless

1st Jul 2013, 12:39

Very sad news this morning.....19 Fire Fighters from the Prescott Arizona Fire Department's Hot Shot Team were killed when they were over run by a Forest Fire.

They evidently retreated to their preselected Safety Zone, Deployed their Emergency Fire Shelters, but did not survive.

This is the worst such tragedy I can recall.

Fire Fighting is a very dangerous affair sometimes.

(http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/01/us/arizona-firefighter-deaths/index.html)

HeliStudent

1st Jul 2013, 15:01

This is unbelievable!

19 Firefighters Dead in Yarnell Hill Wildfire - YouTube

SASless

1st Jul 2013, 15:48

A presentation on Individual Fire Shelters....history, design, and testing.

http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/programs/fire/documents/shelhist.pdf

Gordy

1st Jul 2013, 18:07

Rumor on the street is that the crew was doing a "direct attack" and the wind shifted on them.

This tragic incident will join the list of multiple death fires, Man Gulch, Storm King Mountain, (or South Canyon fire as some call it), Thirty mile, Iron 44 to name a few.

I know there are not too many other fire pilots on here, but to all I say, call home to your loved ones, and keep your head on a swivel.

RIP my friends.

SASless

2nd Jul 2013, 04:08

More news programing.....

Why fire shelters didn't save Yarnell Hill crew from death | ksdk.com (http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/386494/3/Why-fire-shelters-didnt-save-Yarnell-Hill-crew-from-death)

170'

2nd Jul 2013, 09:47

What a tragedy!....Heartbreaking news.

It's not just the 19 (who were typically young and in the prime of life) who suffered an unimaginable nightmare at Yarnell Hill - but the after effect wounds countless people. I can't imagine the grief the loved ones are suffering right now. Words can't help them I suppose, only time will dull the pain...

I've spent many years on fires and the devotion to duty typically shown by most firefighters, the 'can do' attitude and all round 'esprit de corps' is always a great thing to be a part of. Never more so than in the US where the scale/magnitude is often at the higher end of demand on the fire crews.

I was at South Canyon CO, and this news brings it all back!
Years pass and we tend to forget those who gave everything. I am guilty of this selective memory most of the time but this truly tragic event brings it all back into focus.

I'm on fires in Europe now and our fires here are typically small in comparison. But wherever there's a fire there's a danger.
As Gordy said. 'Keep your head on a swivel' and let's all remember the next tragedy is out there somewhere waiting for us to make that one mistake. You know?...

The big One!

Rest In Peace Yarnell Hill Crew...

HeliStudent

2nd Jul 2013, 09:54

Rest In Peace Yarnell Hill Crew...

http://cdn-ugc.mamaslatinas.com/gen/constrain/500/500/80/2013/07/01/09/dv/4l/poz8bgudk4.jpg

nuthin

2nd Jul 2013, 17:12

Hi Gordy

My base machine looks just like the 206L on the videos previous page. It was bought out of the US in 2010. Fighting fires a little but mostly working in the St Elias Range out of Haines Junction, Yukon.

Yukon and Alaska have had a very hot dry spring, Lots a hardware heading north out of the wet south. Busiest fire season since 2004 I think

Gordy

2nd Jul 2013, 18:18

My base machine looks just like the 206L

I know that N767H just flew up that way last week, it is in the same colors as the one in river. It is the Pocatello Helitack aircraft this year but got sent to Alaska.

Things are heating up in the lower 48 right now. I had calls this morning checking on availability of my aircraft---I only have a Jet Ranger and a Huey left right now, and suspect they may go out shortly.

Gordy

2nd Jul 2013, 19:05

Here is a copy of the witness statement from the helicopter in the river--previous page. I have sanitized it for the sake of the pilot. VERY interesting reading. It is written by the USFS inspector giving the ride.

On 6/28/2013, approximately between 1230 hrs to 1300, I witnessed "Brand X" Aviation Company’s Bell 206L3, N****, crash in the Clark Fork River approx. 3.5 to 4 nm South West of the Missoula Airport (KMSO). The weather at the time was VFR, calm wind, and approximately 30*C. Below is my statement of the events with this incident.

I was conducting a flight evaluation for the Pilot, for this coming fire season. We took off approx. 1200 hrs from the Minuteman FBO ramp of the KMSO airport. We flew to the mountains SW of the airport (approx. 4 to 5 nm) to conduct mountain-flying technics and confined area operations. After completing those tasks we were going to conduct water dropping operations, for the evaluation, with a water bucket and a 150’ synthetic long line. As briefed before the flight started from KMSO, I asked Mr. Pilot to land on a large sand/gravel bar on the north shore of the river, due to aircraft performance planning, and I would observe his longline/bucket work from the ground. The landing was normal and uneventful. Mr. Pilot then exited the aircraft to prep it for bucket operations while I stayed inside the aircraft and guarded the controls. After Mr. Pilot set up the long line and bucket, we then ops checked the bucket for proper operation and then we checked the aircraft’s cargo hook twice, everything was working correctly. Mr. Pilot then re-entered the aircraft, took over the controls and I climbed out to stand on the sand/gravel bar, to be able to observe his bucket work. Before I exited the aircraft, Mr. Pilot and I re-briefed what maneuvers and procedures I needed him to perform for the bucket part of the evaluation.
The first water dip and water drop was uneventful, other than coming in a little steep and putting the control head in the water. The second water dip Mr. Pilot seemed to be coming into the dip vertically from a higher height than I would have come in, (if I had been flying), and the aircraft seemed to be settling with power for a brief moment as the bucket and control head entered the water, then Mr. Pilot recovered, and did another successful water drop. The third water dip approach, again seemed to be initiated from a higher than normal altitude to the water, and his water drop was again satisfactory. It seemed to me that he was trying to fly a little too fast thru the water bucket part of the evaluation, all water bucket maneuvers seemed to be rushed. Mr. Pilot went back for his fourth water dip, this time he initiate this approach to the water from higher altitude than the other 3 previous dip approaches. I would estimate he initiated this approach from approximately 250 ft AGL (bucket height). As he was coming down vertically, I noticed that the aircraft started to settle with power at a fairly quick rate and I knew he was in trouble. The bucket, control head, and line started entering the water rapidly, and then Mr. Pilot dropped the nose of the aircraft and tried to get out of the settling by flying forward (upstream), the bucket filled with water and became a big anchor and pivot point resulting in the aircraft to start to dynamically roll over longitudinally forward. The aircraft’s nose was in a downward angle toward the water. Then it appeared that Mr. Pilot pulled in a lot of power to try to stop his descent. At this point I could hear what sounded like the rotor RPM slow down and the engine spooling up then compressor stalling (making loud banging noises) and the aircraft spun one and a half times to the right (LTE), ending up facing down river. At about the same time as the aircraft spin occurred, it sounded like Mr. Pilot closed the throttle of the aircraft or the engine spooled down and the aircraft descended vertically into the river rapidly from about 15 to 20 feet above the water level, on the south side of the river. After that the main rotor came down and struck the tail boom just in front of the tail rotor. I ran down the north shore of the river (a lot easier written than done) until I was abeam the aircraft and Mr. Pilot. I could not reach the aircraft because it was on the other side of the river from me (100 yards) and the water was running too fast and was too deep for me to cross. I could see Mr. Pilot sitting in the aircraft and moving around. I yelled over to him to see if he was ok and he replied back that he was ok. Then he started to make cell phone calls while sitting in the aircraft, to people who needed to know of the incident. I noticed that the bucket seemed to be still attached to the aircraft, because I could see it downstream 150 ft of the aircraft, immerged in the river.
The pilot experienced three different emergencies thru this incident. He went from settling with power to dynamic rollover then to LTE, after that, is when gravity took over. The pilot was ok, but ended up with two cracked vertebrates. I asked the pilot later that day after the incident, why he didn’t punch off the bucket, he said he tried but realized he was pushing the wrong button. End of Statement.

Helicopter Inspector Pilot
US Forest Service, Region 1

HeliStudent

2nd Jul 2013, 19:05

From Santa Fe Helitack

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/482748_422318384523365_1845790417_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/222356_381543311934206_447958479_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/262633_381543465267524_1767594241_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/44393_381543125267558_59915543_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/60036_381543598600844_312565567_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/68614_381543771934160_312209260_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/398956_422309667857570_1222759844_n.jpg

Gordy

3rd Jul 2013, 15:42

Some more notes based upon the helicopter crash during the evaluation ride. I suspect the witness report above got buried behind Helistudents pictures... (No dis-respect, but maybe you could put those on a picture thread as they really serve no learning purpose on this thread, and basically hid an interesting report).

Anyway---this is some interesting reading. This again is from the inspector pilot who witnesses the crash.

Lessons learned and advice from the helicopter crash landing in the Clark Fork River, Missoula Montana, on 6/28/2013.

Professional Development:
When the pilot called me after he left the hospital we discussed why he didn’t jettison his bucket. He told me that he tried, but realized he was hitting the wrong button. This brings to light that pilots need to get in the cockpit every once in a while and go thru practice emergency training, and switch-ology on the ground. I call this Professional Development. We as pilots are paid by our bosses to be professionals at what we do, and we all know there is plenty of sitting on our butt time on most fires. I always made it a point to try to spend about an hour per day doing professional development with my crew, instead of just sitting on my butt and seeing what the end of the internet looked liked or playing games. We would get in the cockpit and go over run-up procedures, pre-flights, contracts, emergency procedures, etc., normally in the morning, before the heat of the day. I would recommend this practice to all flight crews, as it will only make you more proficient at what you do.

Don’t rush:
Another lesson to take away from this is to not get in a hurry when flying the bucket or other missions, and never out-fly your own limitations. This pilot seemed to be rushing thru his water dips and drops. Pilots need to remember to not exceed their limitations, we need to fly up to our limits but be disciplined enough not to exceed them or you are opening the door for mistakes and failures. An old saying from my logging days to make pilots slow down, make deliberate inputs, and improve hook accuracy was, “If you think you are going too slow, then slow down.” You will be surprised how much truth is in that statement.

Approach and set-up to a dip site:
Make sure to not come in too high and try to salvage the approach to the water source. Most of the time it is not going to work out very pretty, as it was with the result of this incident. If you are coming into your dip site and the approach is not correct, i.e. too high, just do a go around and come back into the dip with a proper and controlled approach. Remember go-arounds are free and incidents are expensive. I would much rather tell Air Attack that I need to spend a few extra minutes going around than call my boss and tell them I just bent up his helicopter.

Comfort level and pride:
The PIC has the last and final say for anything involving their aircraft. If the PIC isn’t comfortable then it is their responsibility to speak up and say so. Pilots are paid for 90% decision making ability and 10% flying ability. As a PIC, type A personality, one of the hardest things to do is turn down a mission, or say you can’t accomplish what is expected of you. We hate to accept failure and some have taken that pride to the grave. Remember, there is no mission we are asked to do that is worth dying for. It takes a very professional pilot to stand their ground and stay within their comfort level regardless of the pressure they my feel from outside sources, but in the long run, that is a pilot who will keep himself and his passenger alive and will be well respected in the industry.

PPE:
Just before we went on this flight that resulted in the aircraft crash landing in the river, the pilot and I were standing out by the aircraft going over our passenger brief. The pilot looked over and saw me wearing my PFD (Personal Floatation Device), and said; “I guess you are going to make me wear my PFD too” and I said “Yup”. I bet he was glad he was wearing it. The aircraft landed in only 3 ½ feet of water, but with the end of run- off still here, the water was running very swiftly. If you were to fall in the current, it would be way to strong to swim against. Also after standing there and watching the aircraft go from normal, to out of control flight and crashing in the river, all in a matter of less than a minute, it made me realize that there is no way anyone would have the time or means to put on their PFD after an incident sequence of events has started. I was on shore when the incident took place but I still used mine. I had to walk out to meet Rescue Personnel, and I was on an island. For me to finally get off of the swampy island and to safety, I had to forge a small river that was 3 ½ feet deep, 80 yards across and fast running water. I was tired by the time I had to cross that river and I put my PFD back on cause had I slipped on the slippery rocks, I was too tired to swim and fight the current. I figured if I slipped I was just going to pop my life vest and float down with the current until I could get to safely on a shoreline again. My take away from this is, “Always wear your PFD while doing over water operations, cause you don’t have time to put it on.” Having it near-by you in the cockpit and the thought process of, after I get in the water I will grab it and put it on, is not good enough. Plus I need mine to make sure I could make back out to safe area.

Being Prepared:
I took my cell phone out of my pocket and left it in the office before the flight. I knew it was going to be hot and didn’t want it in my pocket getting all sweaty. If I had my cell phone with me, I would have been able to call 911 and my supervisor to inform them of the incident. Also I would have been able to call the pilot in the crashed aircraft to communicate with him, instead of us yelling to each other across the river as we did. I learned to always take a means of communication with you when ever possible, even if it makes you a little uncomfortable.
Since we were going on a short flight, only about 5 miles from the airport, and I knew it was only going to take about 35 to 45 minutes for the checkride, I elected to not take any water with me. I also knew it was going to be one of the hottest days of the year so far. But what could go wrong? After the incident I was surely wishing I had brought some water with me. I ended up on the opposite side of the river from the rescue crews and the river was too far, deep, and swift to swim across. The rescue crews said, I need to walk out to a road about a mile to the north (it was more than a mile); there would be an EMT and Police Officer waiting for me there. Well the piece of land I was on was an island that was mostly swamp, thick vegetation, and 3-foot tall grass, making it very hard to walk thru without a lot of effort. It took me 2 hours to hike out in my flight suit, helmet and PFD. I was carrying the helmet and PFD, but had to keep my flight suit zipped up, and sleeves down, due to all the ticks. With the heat of the day combined with the physical exertion of walking thru that thick swampy area, I got very thirsty and exhausted. If I would have had to walk for another hour or two thru that area in that heat I would have been facing heat exhaustion or stroke, there is no doubt in my mind about that.
So the moral of the story is to always make sure you are prepared. The aircraft had a survival kit but I was separated from the aircraft with no means to access the kit. Had I only brought my cell phone and a bottle of water, I would have been much better off. Neither one of them really would have been a real inconvenience to carry.

I hope that by reading this, it will be a wake up call to some of you and we can turn this un-fortunate incident into a learning event and bring some good out of it.

SASless

3rd Jul 2013, 15:57

Jet Rangers and water dipping with the extra weight of the Inspector along....confined areas....remind you of how careful one must be.

When I did my 206 ride like this one....I pointed out our usual dip spot....and suggested we not use it....but instead go find a wide open flat approach to a farm pond in the middle of a cow pasture with miles of clear way.

We wound up dipping.....and releasing at the same time as the old girl just wasn't going vertical even with a minimum setting on the bucket.

Reading the report....nothing has changed over time.

Granted I was in a 206B-III not an L series.

Gordy

3rd Jul 2013, 16:23

I did my renewal last year in a BIII out of Morgan Helibase by Ogden, UT. Dipped around 7,500' 25*C with a 72 gallon bucket cinched to 70%----barely got it out of the water---a wind gust helped... :cool::cool:

SASless

3rd Jul 2013, 18:28

Now if you had just left yer Wallet back at the base you could have hauled twice as much water!

Gordy

3rd Jul 2013, 20:39

Now if you had just left yer Wallet back at the base you could have hauled twice as much water!

Ha....too true, :D however, like most I dad pay my dues and live like a pauper for many years before I got here. One never forgets one's roots.

newfieboy

4th Jul 2013, 01:26

Hey Gordy
Hope all well mate. Very sad to hear the loss in Arizona, RIP guys.

We just picked up a couple new B3's this last winter along with all ops gear. Came with the AFS Fast bucket....nice. Liking the multiple drop...no more cinching your bucket, just fill her up, if too heavy just hit the button and let a little out at a time till you can get out of the pond. Easy to pack up also and packs a lot smaller than a Bambi. Fits in basket nicely.

Slow start in Canada but things ramping up, forecasting + 30's where I am new starts today.
Be safe and have a good fire season.

Gordy

4th Jul 2013, 07:58

Hey Newfie, was just talking about you yesterday....all good....

We have just one of the fast buckets....like you say, it is a dream, but too heavy for anything less than a B3 Astar.... in the L4 we actually lose capacity with it. If only they could make the smallest one a tad lighter...in line with a bambi and I would outfit my whole fleet.

We had 2,800 lightning strikes in Norcal in the last 48 hours...just not too many starts though, but July 4th is upon us....bring on the "redneck fireworks":E:E

Be safe my friend...maybe we should plan a visit somewhere, you and yours and me & mine...? Be rude not too after this season?

SuperF

4th Jul 2013, 09:59

Hey guys, how heavy is the Fast Bucket? And what volume is that for?

Are they still making Fast Buckets? I thought that they stopped production, or was that the Waterhog?

Love the line, if you think that you are going to slow, then slow down. I got told that so many times I started using it myself....

Gordy

4th Jul 2013, 18:28

SEI bought the production line--as far as I know it is still in productiomn.

Fast Bucket Specs Here (http://www.sei-ind.com/sites/default/files/pdf/FASTBucketSpecs.pdf)

newfieboy

5th Jul 2013, 14:47

Hi Gordy
Yes will really have to plan something after the season.
Things ramping up big time up here. All our machines that were sitting now out on fires, nothing left in yard. I'm just sitting on airlines en route to pick one of our B2's up, then who knows where......Be safe my friend.

newfieboy

5th Jul 2013, 16:57

This mornings sit rep from CIFFC casual hire not including contract A/C
36 mediums
87 intermediate
10 light
Numbers growing by the day.....

Helicopter doctor

7th Jul 2013, 10:26

This is a very informative discussion. One thing I have not seen mentioned (have not read all as yet) is any effects on engine performance caused by the constant ingestion of smoke laden air.

Our Company has 2 Bell 212s operating in Indonesia. At present there has been a lot of fires in Sumatra which has been causing severe air pollution in Singapore and Malaysia. This is a yearly problem and is often caused by plantation companies in Indonesia burning off to clear land. A lot of the forest on this land is growing on peat, which smoulders for long periods once ignited. There has been a belated reaction to the complaints from neighboring countries and our Company was approached to take part in the fire fighting efforts. Apart from the fact there is almost no infrastructure on the ground, which make these efforts virtually useless, I am concerned about the effect on engine performance and reliability of the PT6T engines.

In 1997 during an especially bad dry season, I was working for an operator with a fleet of B205A-1's. We were caught in the “Haze” as it was called, in South Sumatra and in Kalimantan, aka Borneo. This caused considerable engine related problems. There is a “tar” like substance in wood or peat smoke and this accumulated inside the compressor section of the engine and caused loss of power. It bakes on to the engine compressor components and is very difficult to remove completely. Our experience with the Bell 205’s was very high Exhaust temps and gradual loss of power, to the point we could no longer operate the aircraft. With the T53 engine, the compressor could be disassembled for cleaning by hand, however this is not possible on the PT6T-3B. In Canada I believe PALL particle separtors are fitting to 205’s which are removed and cleaned every day to remove the tar. I am not aware of any 212/ PT6 filters.

This "tar" also accumulated on the rotor blades as a black sticky coating in as little as two hours flying.

The 212 in used for fire fighting in the USA and Canada, however I believe the conditions are not the same as here. In the USA / Canada, it seems the fires are attacked very quickly after they break out, and the aircraft are mostly flying in clear air before dropping their loads. In Indonesia, the situation is usually critical before any fire fighting action is taken, and by that time the smoke haze is so bad that most of the time the pilots cannot see to fly, and if they can fly, the engines are consuming huge quantities of smoke filled air. A wind shift at night tends to bring a lot of the smoke haze back into the area where it originated, concentrating it and bringing visibility down to a few yards at times, till it clears later in the day.

If anyone is operating 212's on fires I would appreciate any comments on this subject based on your experience.

Thanks
Doc

HeliStudent

11th Jul 2013, 07:20

Heli fire fighting going on at Mt. Charleston in Nevada.

Helicopters dropped 162,000 gallons of water on the fire on Tuesday. Air tankers carrying fire retardant are also being used to battle the blaze.

6 buildings destroyed by massive Carpenter 1 wildfire - WSMV Channel 4 (http://wsmv.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/22803876/carpenter-1-wildfire-chars-more-than-25k-acres)

helmet fire

12th Jul 2013, 05:38

It was really good of the USFS supervisory pilot to put together the lessons learned piece above. I think it I simportant that we learn from other incidents before we have to try them out ourselves!

I would also like to say that I disagree with his statement on the facts of the incident, although I was not there like he was..... so I accept this may open my response up to inaccuracies. The issue I have is that he claims the pilot went through "three separate emergencies......settling with power, dynamic rollover, and LTE"

I contend that he suffered none of these and am concerned that it will be attributed to those "labels"

Settling with power (better called vortex ring) is not possible in the scenarios described... Ie that the pilot descended in control and arrested the descent when the control head was in the water. That is, that he some how entered and recovered from vortex ring in less than 150 ft. This is an almost impossible scenario in my view. Vortex ring is not solved by putting the bucket into the water, or even reducing the aircraft load by having it placed on the ground. It is solved only by shedding the main rotor vortices ingestion. A quick search on PPrune for Nick Lappos explanation of this will help.

Secondly, dynamic rollover did not occur, though the symptoms are similar. Dynamic rollover occurs when the aircraft is in contact with the ground, not when the load is in contact with the ground. What happened here was that the load exceeded the ability of the aircraft to lift and the pilot tried to fly away. He was not dynamically accelerated past his centre of gravity, he was pivoted by the radius if his line and centripetal force.

Lastly, he did not suffer LTE. He suffered LTA, Loss of Tail Rotor Authority in that he was pulling too much torque with reducing RRPM for the tail rotor to exert directional authority. It did not enter its own vortex ring state. Again, a search here on Pprune will illuminate the reasoning behind my misgivings on LTE occurring in this example.

As I said before, I was not there and may have missed some evidence but from the witness statement alone, I would offer a different point of view - not necessarily the "right" one, just a different one. And I re-iterate that his preparedness to the detail lessons for the rest of us is admirable.

Re the 212s, when I used to do that, we would compressor rinse every 25 hourly which was each second night as a min, and sometimes when time was available, we would do it every day. There is no solution to avoiding the damage to the engine and compressors unless you avoid smoke. If you cannot do that, then you MUST factor in significant wear and tear increases on the lifed dynamic items or get a very rude shock when you send them off for inspection. From memory, we would factor in at least another 20% operating cost for this type of work, and in the 212 we would pull the floor and treat for corrosion at then end of each season where foam was used.

Gordy

12th Jul 2013, 08:10

helmet fire
Great response.... I was waiting for someone to post and you hit upon everything I wanted to say but in way more detail.... I was going to say:

"he ran out of Pitch Power and Ideas all in the space of 15 seconds and f*cked up...and there but for the grace of (insert your preferred savoir here), go I"...

As for the 212 issue....I operate one on fires and do not have this issue....I have asked my mechanics to give me an answer...will post hen they respond...

Robertosicilia

12th Jul 2013, 20:47

good afternoon , please if some body can help me with this, we try to work with bambibucket in central america panama, but need find complete provisions for cargo hook to install in a bo105cbs very apreciate your help and sorry for my english have a good weekend

HeliStudent

17th Jul 2013, 15:10

Robertosicilia why don't you try Brenda Philips at SEI Industries (http://www.sei-ind.com/contact-us).

http://s.imwx.com/dru/2013/07/06d4f22b-7803-458b-a7a9-63f575fefafa_650x366.jpg

Helicopter crews work the Mountain Fire as it burns in the wilderness near Lake Hemet, Calif. Tuesday, July 17th

IDYLLWILD, Calif. -- A wildfire in mountains west of Palm Springs burned seven homes and led to the evacuation of dozens more, officials said.

Story and photo stream (http://www.weather.com/news/california-wildfire-burns-homes-threatens-more-20130717)

also

Helicopters water bombing in Scotland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23314276)

HeliStudent

17th Jul 2013, 16:47

I may not be able to post such news for a while, so let me make the most of it -

Helicopter Fire Fighting in Wales Today (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23347952)

Well done Heli-Firefighters! :D

Does anyone know which company were used, was it a local (to Wales) firm?

Gordy

17th Jul 2013, 16:48

Robertosicilia Here is what you are looking for however this is just a replacement kit. I am not sure as on-board makes the original anymore, but this is where I would start.

Here (http://www.onboardsystems.com/products/200-388-00)

Helicopter doctor

23rd Jul 2013, 01:13

Gordy / helmet fire.
Thanks for the feedback, anything else you find out will be appreciated.
Doc

newfieboy

24th Jul 2013, 01:18

Hi Gordy
Hope all well mate. I'm having a cold beer in Toronto Pearson en route home after a good go in Quebec, chance to practice my french....crews and longline bucket plus a few days on Initial Attack. Calmed down a little but starting to ramp up again. Posted some pics on Facebook helicopter pilots page. Internet was too slow to post here through photobucket. What news down south? Be safe matey....Best to you and the little lady.
Newfie

Gordy

27th Jul 2013, 06:56

Newfie....Good to hear from you....I am good, her indoors is travelling too---currently in Vernal, UT visiting one of her stores... Glad you are safe, will check out the FB pics---I post occasionally... Hopefully you get to go home to your lovely wife---who I need to meet one day----lets make a plan...

Things are slow to pick up this year south of the border----I think the USFS is being "fiscally conservative" right now and not filling all the resource orders to save money.

I am currently on the 5,000 acre ridge fire in Idaho----great part of the country, even though it does tax ones skills as it is all around 7,000 to 9,000 feet.....

For the rest of you who do not know what can be accomplished by helicopters...: The fire I am on is completely reliant on helicopters---tis the only way in or out. We have 11 hotshot and type 2 crews on the fire---220 people. We have to support their needs, (food, water, clothing, medical, toilet paper) along with all the operational needs--- chainsaws, gasoline, oil, water pumps, hoseline, connectors, let alone water on the fire, and bringing down EVERYTHING ss it is a wilderness area, therefore remove all trash etc.

We have 8 helicopters supporting this fire--- 2 cranes, a 205, a 212, a 407, a B3 Astar, a B2 Astar and an L4. This is from the daily sit report on the fire a few days ago---we have put more up there since:

Crews have been successful in putting almost 10 miles of hose on the east side of the fire to assist with hot spots and mopping up. Since the start of the fire on 7/17 up until yesterday (7/24), a half million gallons of water have been put on the fire, 70,000 pounds of cargo have lifted to and from the fire, and 350 people have been shuttled in and out of the fire area. Aerial resources will continue to be mission critical towards supporting the efforts of the fire fighters.

You can follow the fire here, they update it every few hours: Inci Web Ridge Fire (http://www.inciweb.org/incident/3523/)

Here are a couple pics I took yesterday, (and yes that is a nasty razor back ridge @8,400' and 25'C with fire burning all around----fun fun fun---tis where we get our adrenaline rush):

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2013/IMG_20130725_170913_433_zps41651ff1.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2013/IMG_20130725_170908_507_zps17b77989.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2013/IMG_20130725_170924_613_zpsb572ff88.jpg

Gordy

29th Jul 2013, 06:16

Quick update... A few of us were sitting at helibase this morning and could not think of another large fire, (as in thousands of acres), that was so reliant on helicopters. There is only one way up to the fire.....and that is by helicopter. Here is the latest from inciweb about 3 hours ago, and remember this is all in the last 12 days:

Helicopters have played a vital role in suppression and support activies during the incident and have logged over 400 flight hours. These flights have safely supported the following missions:
1). 1,000,000 gallons of water dropped while supporting firefighters during suppression and mop up operations.
2). 500 passengers transported from Warm Springs airstrip to multiple spike camps within the fire area.
3). 150,000 pounds of cargo shuttled from Warm Springs airstrip to the fireline in support of firefighters. This includes overnight fire gear, pumps, hoses and warm meals.
Helicopters will continue to support the fireline personnel as they begin to transport firecrews and fire fighting equipment back to Warm Springs airstip once incident objectives have been met.

John Eacott

10th Aug 2013, 12:04

newfieboy, I know it's a fixed wing but anything to do with your ops?

27hFoM0VPOA

albatross

10th Aug 2013, 13:58

Thats a Canadair either a CL215 or 415.

Winnie

10th Aug 2013, 16:17

Newfoundland Government Air Services (Peas and Carrots) CL-415 from Wabush, Labrador. On the Labrador highway, just a stones throw from Goose Bay.

CYHeli

10th Aug 2013, 22:50

That would be the best example of inter agency cooperation that I have ever seen.:ok:

SASless

10th Aug 2013, 23:21

Beautiful drop!

newfieboy

11th Aug 2013, 03:10

Hi John
CL415 as Winnie stated Newfie Gov own them. Know the crew, they were busy this year in Lab on fires. Unfortunately didn't get chance this year to work with these crews. Was busy in Quebec working along side their provinces CL415 crews. Very accommodating, they worked one sector along side us with buckets in the next. Quite the machine to watch, always loved longline bucket, but working along side these bomber crews always makes me a little envious on the fun factor it must be. They pull some pretty tight circuits when on ops.

The one machine I really want to see in action while working along side is this baby.

r7MPkkLCVmw

Wonder what they use to birdsong that in....for you info in Quebec they were using Kingairs for the CL415,s. Our fire season will be coming to an end shortly, yours will be beginning keep us informed John, know lots of Canuck crews heading down. For me done for the next few weeks...off spraying conifer release for forestry. Oh we'll change as good as a rest.

Gordy, hope all going well mate, will be in touch PM on the plans for a reunion, you would love Newfieland, would remind you off your days in light blue a la Lossie. Very beautiful. The fish and chips and pints of Guiness or heavy the real deal. Later mate be safe.

HeliStudent

13th Aug 2013, 17:30

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/cafire080913/s_c02_48657195.jpg

A helicopter drops water over a wildfire in Cabazon, California, on August 8, 2013. About 1,500 people have fled and three were injured as a wildfire in the Southern California mountains quickly spread.

Gordy

13th Aug 2013, 20:08

HeliStudent:

This is the Silver Fire on the San Bernadino NF. I have one of my helicopters, (currently based at the Keenwild Helitack Base), working this fire and one of our "sister" companies working it. I believe that is N873HL, Roger's 212. I head to this fire tomorrow.

Silver Fire Info (http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_details_info?incident_id=874)

HeliStudent

13th Aug 2013, 20:37

Gordy, thank you very much for this information. :ok:

I think being a fire pilot must be a really rewarding career. Maybe you are not lifting people out of the water on a winch or sliding them into the back of an air ambulance from a road accident but, by safely controlling fires you could be saving hundreds of lives. :D

Take care as you head out tomorrow.

Gordy

19th Aug 2013, 19:20

HeliStudent---Thanx.

The mountain and Silver fires are pretty much done, but still plenty of smokes interior. I am now headed to Idaho.

Here is an excellent video of the Beaver Creek Fire taken by a member of the public:

Beaver Creek Wildfire Video on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/scvp/beaverfiresv)

HeliStudent

27th Aug 2013, 20:22

British helicopter instructor in US prevents major fire during night time training flight:

62GOuRxUbUM

Helicopter hero saves day in US fire drama + VIDEO & AUDIO (From The Oxford Times) (http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/yourtown/oxford/10635064.Helicopter_hero_saves_day_in_US_fire_drama___VIDEO_ __AUDIO/)

HeliStudent

29th Aug 2013, 07:01

I don't suppose it gets much closer than this!

ffskX7K-q70

Well done to all the air firefighters. :D

Gordy

29th Oct 2013, 19:36

This may just top Madagascar as my favorite movie....we will have to wait and see:

OrrvR8xC58c

Ian Corrigible

31st Oct 2013, 16:37

Meanwhile, China goes for the Michael Bay (http://www.bit.ly/xnYJMG) approach to firefighting...

Missiles could help firefighters put out high-rise blazes (http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2013-10/25/content_17058318.htm)

I/C

Savoia

4th Nov 2013, 10:19

Blue Mountain Mayor says: Buy Skycranes

Blue Mountains mayor Mark Greenhill said the Skycranes had been ''a godsend'' in last month's bushfire crisis, when 200 homes were destroyed and has said ''we ought to own a sufficient amount to meet what seems to be an increasing threat.''

Fairfax Media understands it costs $1.5 million to hire one Skycrane for 12 weeks. The cost of buying one new is estimated at $30 million to $40 million.

Time to buy air-crane helicopters: Blue Mountains mayor (http://www.theage.com.au/environment/weather/time-to-buy-aircrane-helicopters-blue-mountains-mayor-20131103-2wuuk.html)

Gordy

9th Apr 2014, 23:52

Update on previous post....Lets all talk to the fire gods and ask for a slow day on July 18th...

New trailer....watch it full screen, sound up:

See it Here (http://movies.disney.com/planes?cmp=wdsmp_plan_4d_bing_src_Title_Trailer)

Gordy

16th Dec 2014, 06:00

CNN has picked up the story on the burnover save during the King Fire earlier this year.

You can watch the full story on CNN @ 9PM EST/PST Tuesday 16th.

Preview Here (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/15/dnt-meade-gary-dahlen-extraordinary-people.cnn.html)

RVDT

16th Dec 2014, 08:30

Shoulder harness - Optional?

John Eacott

16th Dec 2014, 10:09

Shoulder harness - Optional?

Basically: yes!

Gordy

16th Dec 2014, 18:06

Shoulder harness - Optional?

14 CFR 91.105(b)(2) (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/910628D28B527432852566CF00613CBE?OpenDocument)

(b) Each required flight crewmember of a U.S.-registered civil aircraft shall, during takeoff and landing, keep his or her shoulder harness fastened while at his or her assigned duty station. This paragraph does not apply if--
(1) The seat at the crewmember's station is not equipped with a shoulder harness; or
(2) The crewmember would be unable to perform required duties with the shoulder harness fastened.Try long lining out the left seat wearing a standard shoulder harness.

spinwing

16th Dec 2014, 22:35

Mmmmm ...

...Try long lining out the left seat wearing a standard shoulder harness. ...

Then surely provision (2) would apply :confused:

Sir HC

17th Dec 2014, 00:47

I think you'll find that's exactly what Gordy's arguing Spinwing.

Gordy

17th Dec 2014, 04:18

Then surely provision (2) would apply

I thought I said that.....

Anyway, this is not about legalities, but about some guys on the ground who are just as important as us in the air, the "team" came together this day and it ended well for once.

Gordy

20th Jul 2015, 04:02

Please do not fly drones near fires.......

Drones Delay Emergency Crews Battling Wildfires in Southern California Video - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/drones-delay-emergency-crews-battling-wildfires-southern-california-32548214)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/CKJkMIaVEAEXlmG_zpspry6uzdr.jpg

Ian Corrigible

20th Jul 2015, 11:16

And please do not start fires with drones...

Remote control helicopter sparks 30-acre fire (http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/news-sacramento/sac-metro-remote-control-helicopter-sparks-30acre-fire/34247036)

I/C

Gordy

26th Aug 2015, 00:41

Figured I would post a few pics of my adventures in the last 5 weeks.... (Just got home for few days off):

The Lowell Fire outside of Lake Tahoe, one of my Hueys doing a spot drop:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150727_130844_zpsqdl7sbhc.jpg

All coming back to base for the night---we had 15 helicopters on this fire ranging from a Jet Ranger all the way upto a Crane and EVERYthing in between:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150728_201812592_zpsucflcg1l.jpg

Clearly NOT tomato plants:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150727_130521_zps469pgpdo.jpg

They do give us good lunche sacks though:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150727_120302_zpsll0ysamv.jpg

This was on the Frog Fire on the Modoc National Forest. One firefighter died fighting this one, (RIP Dave Ruhl), You can see a tanker about to drop here:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150804_184510021_zpsxrk7qgze.jpg

I then went to the Gasquet Complex in the Redwood National Forest System:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150820_091546109_zpszesj2lsp.jpg

Here is why California is having so many problems---you can see the effecct of the drought here:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150820_102958131_zpsj4qg2m2x.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150820_103157969_zpsfdxuackm.jpg

Gordy

26th Aug 2015, 00:50

And I just left Washington State and the Carpenter Road Fire:

Carpenter Road Fire Info (http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/4549/)

http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/photos/WANES/2015-08-20-1257-Carpenter-Road-Fire/picts/2015_08_25-16.19.01.089-CDT.jpeg

Flying out from Helibase in tandem... Spot the Drone.... (There is none that I know of, but could you tell 100%?)

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150823_103846944_zpsp8u3pkbc.jpg

Inbound to my dip site:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150823_185932247_HDR_zpskodvyvxl.jpg

Headed for the drop....spots everywhere:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150823_191048922_HDR_zpsks1eedoh.jpg

Off the drop---I know there is an escape route here somewhere:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150823_190105897_zpsvyw7od6c.jpg

Headed back to main base in the evening---the whole of the State is blanketed in smoke reducing visibility....I-pads help:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2015/IMG_20150822_185951232_HDR_zpsclws90xs.jpg

Ian Corrigible

31st Aug 2016, 12:10

Not to be outdone by China (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/111399-helicopter-fire-fighting-merged-threads-9.html#post8127900), Boeing proposes 'fire mission' using 155mm howitzers, claiming such barrages will be "more efficient and flexible than dropping the retardant from airplanes or helicopters":

Boeing suggests new weapon in fighting wildfires (http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-suggests-new-weapon-in-fighting-wildfires/)

http://i.imgur.com/YktrHDS.png

I/C

Robbo Jock

5th Sep 2016, 17:07

Maneuvering artillery pieces to get a shot at such areas would not be easy, either, he speculated

Why limit to ground artillery? Make shells up in calibres from 30mm up to 105mm, buy an Air-Force surplus AC-130 or two and load it up - orbit the fire, blaze away (excuse the pun) with all weapons, sorted.

Gordy

5th Sep 2016, 18:53

This whole concept is laughable. Do they realize how many of these it would take on a 1,000 acre fire. Besides, we basically line the fire and let the middle burn out.

Cyclic Hotline

6th Sep 2016, 22:03

I'm not sure that the entire concept is ridiculous, but would have certainly want to witness it in action to see if there is any meaningful effect. I've seen plenty of fires where the helicopter and fixed wing resources were pretty ineffective and almost irrelevant (to say the least) against massive fire complexes, where they could only offer limited resistance to an overwhelming onslaught of fire. We've all also seen plenty of times when there is no flying due to smoke, wind or other factors.

Twenty years ago, everyone laughed at the concept of fixed wing jets in the fire-fighting market and just look where we are today. Fire-fighting resources require a complete toolbox of tricks and resources, and I'm not sure that this one is without potential merit. It's been the staple resource of the oilfield firefighting business for decades.

Scientists test explosion method that could see wildfires stopped in their tracks | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2636010/How-fire-EXPLOSION-Scientists-test-method-wildfires-stopped-tracks-explosives.html)

John Eacott

13th Sep 2016, 00:23

OK Gordy: own up!

jQNHdAG94TU

500 Fan

28th Jun 2018, 10:17

500e

28th Jun 2018, 12:38

Does anyone know what the 500D (G-BIOA?) was doing in relation to the Manchester Moorland Fire today. BBC news reports show it flying in the area. Was it doing a little aerial spotting for the fire service? Thanks.

500 Fan.

News showed it with long line so presume water bucket only caught a glimpse,
Flown it a couple of times, owner AH helicopters

500 Fan

28th Jun 2018, 20:35

Thanks. I didn't spot the longline. A Squirrel appeared in later footage too so I guess there are a couple of commercial helicopters involved in the fight. The Chinook is grabbing all the media attention.

500 Fan.

Hughes500

29th Jun 2018, 18:10

Dropped about 450 loads of water as we were the only helicopter available

spencer17

30th Jun 2018, 06:54

They send me down on Tuesday and I could only do about a hundred loads. It was like fighting a house fire with a tablespoon.
Tueseday the fire line was about 4 miles long.
It is a shame that the Helicopters are called out as last resort. We should be in first. That would safe a lot of taxpayer's money.
@Hughes500: We had Pete's funeral on Friday, so no one was flying that day.

Hughes500

30th Jun 2018, 07:44

Spencer quite understand, wasnt supposed to be a slur. We were called in on Monday, but stood down by landowner as we were landing up helicopter. Then called in on Tuesday afternoon by United Utilities, arrived Tuesday evening. We dropped around 600 loads times 450 litres seemed to be pissing into the wind at times !

SASless

30th Jun 2018, 13:13

Helicopters can only put out very small fires if the water source is very close by....and the conditions are right. Otherwise at best the fire can be guided a bit.

Where the Helicopter excels is in putting out burning snags and residual fires like stumps and the like.

When a fire grows to be really active and running....there is very little that can be done but get out of its way.

In the USA....one saying re Forest Fires is "Fly Safe, make as much money as you can!".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9tQXY2GNxI&frags=pl%2Cwn

Gordy

30th Jun 2018, 15:36

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/495x495/fb_img_1530336400723_e77e641f3d796858b9c1c5e74e673396c93aef7 7.jpg
While we are talking fires, today is a sad day in our world--5 years ago today 19 Hotshots died on the Prescott fire. RIP my friends. To see what happened, go watch "Only the Brave", if you see people crying they are probably Wild Land Fire Fighters:

https://youtu.be/SQAUY24wzdQ

SASless

30th Jun 2018, 15:59

Gordy

30th Jun 2018, 16:04

Gordy.....I also think back to the Iron 44 crash....as I knew one of the Pilots and thought a great deal of him and very much respected his flying abilities and wonderful sense of humor!

Ahh yes Iron 44 was another bad one. Many lessons learned on that deal. As you know I was on the clean up of that site. took 210 trips at 45 minutes round trip hauling the contaminated dirt at 900lbs a go. The tree behind the cross is the one they hit....

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1500x2000/img_2289_4b6bcb2d48fdc860dc96febb04f32c731021e54b.jpg

500 Fan

5th Jul 2018, 21:27

There are 5 or 6 sizeable fires here in Ireland at the moment, thanks to the dry weather, a discarded disposable BBQ and possibly an arsonist too. The IAC have a few 139s with Bambi Buckets as well as one commercial operator with an EC120. Some of the fires seem to be quie big. It might be time to consider leasing in a CL-415 for a week or so to see how that might impact on some of the larger fires.

500 Fan.

Gordy

5th Jul 2018, 21:50

There are 5 or 6 sizeable fires here in Ireland at the moment, thanks to the dry weather, a discarded disposable BBQ and possibly an arsonist too.

I am currently working the County Fire in California--a total of 26 helicopters ranging from a Jet ranger all the way upto a Chinook. Fire is currently 80,000 acres and we are considering a 30,000 acre burnout.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1550/county_iap_07_05_18_34_a1acde9510aa99dc755ba75e6cc524b632c38 de3.jpg

500 Fan

5th Jul 2018, 22:18

Yea, the fires in Ireland are miniscule in comparison with some of the big fires in Canada and the U.S. Sadly, we seem to have a fairly limited capability in dealing with them, notwithstanding the efforts of the IAC and other operator. Last summer, one third of the country's biggest forest was lost to a fire, sadly.

500 Fan.

Gordy

7th Jul 2018, 00:46

Now I am on the Klamathon Fire in Northern California.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1504/56641_9aafa6fc306fe54abf0d6ed4d1b2293e4bea5c0c.jpeg

Carbon Bootprint

7th Jul 2018, 13:57

I am currently working the County Fire in California--a total of 26 helicopters ranging from a Jet ranger all the way upto a Chinook. Fire is currently 80,000 acres and we are considering a 30,000 acre burnout.
That's an impressive list of assets, though I understand it might seem miniscule given how formidable and vast those fires can be. Fly safe and keep up the good work. :ok:

Bhutan_H130

8th Jul 2018, 15:00

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1440x893/pprune_dd89ca535fcc5a19da8c6480ed77fa8e7eabf1de.jpg

RBHSL getting ready for previous fire season

Harmonic_Vibe

16th Feb 2019, 23:39

Would any of you fine gentlemen and ladies know where a fellow might find a Simplex 304 to rent? Was thinking there are lots that work from year to year in the southern hemisphere, so maybe the owners of such would be interested in making some money in the off season by renting them to an operator in the northern hemisphere.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

HV

Gordy

27th Jul 2019, 06:55

So some will remember the Carr Fire from last year here in California.

You see my girlfriends house at minute 2:59 and my helicopter at minute 3:57..... bear in mind this was at 3pm in the afternoon.... Most have no clue how intense fires are in California....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htwJLOA6HMg&fbclid=IwAR0dOUAxDCUOybpn1Dkb2sE1ZhT5szKJlUP3bdhW1Y5EOSGgF-UomwSWJ9w

SASless

27th Jul 2019, 12:25

Gordy,

Thank you for posting that video....it is amazing to me yet how small communities can come together during times of great calamity and how some freely put everything they own including their lives to serve and protect others.

nomorehelosforme

30th Jul 2019, 10:16

Not sure if this has been posted before? Does anyone know where it is? Another question how much of a potential hazard are the flying sunbeds!!!!!

https://twitter.com/Rotarywings1/status/1156085121893720065

HeliHenri

30th Jul 2019, 11:23

.
Spain (Sky Helicopteros).
.

heliduck

30th Jul 2019, 12:24

A perfect example of why a 150ft line is always in my kit!!

berlioz

1st Aug 2019, 05:15

Here´s an old photo of a bambi bucket used for the mighty KA32

5000 Litres of water

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1320x2000/bamby_8c917389105fa8ae5919e7ad4edd424f29ef17e0.jpg
5000 litres

nomorehelosforme

22nd Oct 2019, 12:06

Gordy

22nd Oct 2019, 16:46

Some good quality pictures and videos in this news report of the latest wildfires in CA. Makes you realize what the team of firefighters are up against.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7597649/More-300-firefighters-tackle-fast-moving-brush-fire-Pacific-Palisades.html

Luckily that one was caught small. As a reminder of what happens when everything transpires to give you the worst possible conditions, I was on this one on day one, nothing we could do to stop it), we are still working this area restoring the power grid to this day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwup6tA_OzQ

Ascend Charlie

23rd Oct 2019, 06:03

SuperF

23rd Oct 2019, 10:16

not sure about Australia, but in NZ we use sea water if its closer, and a high risk fire. In Nelson this year a fire was lit among some houses, and we had 5 helicopters running circuits out of the local harbour using sea water. It was really close to houses, in fact at one stage we were watering the deck trying to put the fire out underneath it, but ended up saving the houses.

I haven't been back to see what the seawater has done to the ground, so cannot report the results, but not too many people were complaining that day.

One consideration could be what the salt water does to the tanks that they use. Replacing that because you used sea water would eat into your profit for the year.

Gordy

23rd Oct 2019, 16:30

One consideration could be what the salt water does to the tanks that they use. Replacing that because you used sea water would eat into your profit for the year.

Bingo....Tough to hear, and flame me for it if you must.

In reality, I would use sea water to save lives but not property. Like I tell my pilots at the beginning of the season, "we are not saving cute puppies & kittens here, all we are saving is acreage and insured homes---do not be a part of the problem and do not risk equipment damage unless you see said puppies & kittens".

At the end of the year, the homeowner whose house we save is not going to pay for a new bucket, but the insurance company will pay for his new house if it is not saved.

heliduck

23rd Oct 2019, 19:51

But what puzzled me is the complete reluctance to use salt water to fight the fires - the ocean was 100 metres away, and a huge lake 1 km away, but they tracked up to 5km to a fresh water supply in an industrial area, greatly increasing the time between drops.

Obviously, salt water is going to stay in the soil for a while and kill the vegetation, but wouldn't that be preferable to losing your house?

I’m not sure of the circumstances you’re referring to, but in my part of the world we use salt water regularly. The vegetation isn’t the limiting factor, it’s the equipment used - any machine with a belly tank won’t dip from salt water as the spray generated from the down wash while filling will cover the machine & be ingested by the engines, not a good result as your helicopter corrodes away. Using a longline we can use salt water without the risk of covering the machine in salt.

John Eacott

23rd Oct 2019, 21:20

We had another bushfire in my suburb today, luckily the wind was blowing it away from my place. The B 214 chopper and the spotter were on the scene pretty quickly, and worked like cut snakes as the fire was advancing rapidly on a line of houses that were threatened last month too.

But what puzzled me is the complete reluctance to use salt water to fight the fires - the ocean was 100 metres away, and a huge lake 1 km away, but they tracked up to 5km to a fresh water supply in an industrial area, greatly increasing the time between drops.

Obviously, salt water is going to stay in the soil for a while and kill the vegetation, but wouldn't that be preferable to losing your house?

AC, Peregian Beach fire? Report here from Nine News (https://www.9news.com.au/national/bushfire-rages-at-peregian-beach-sunshine-coast-queensland-residents-told-to-evacuate/1facd712-9ed3-46ed-a03e-343222b8c887) shows the proximity to the beach, start 50 seconds in with shots of the MacD 214B and the belly tank :ok:

Quite an early start to the bushfire season here in Queensland and northern NSW, crews look to be busy for a few months yet :hmm:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x900/https_prod_static9_net_au_fs_503ca59f_cb7f_4f0e_aef5_1f979cc 9a453_9affc97762b26a434871c19defc9e1154e85c2da.jpeg

RVDT

23rd Oct 2019, 21:26

214B? = T55?

Same/similar engine used in Unlimited Hydro boats. Enough saltwater in one of those and the PT eventually locks up as it builds up on the PT wheel rim and blades causing surge and stall as well - not pretty!

I think a surge or stall in a 214B would be a pretty expensive exercise and trash a lot of the drive train.

San Diego is the only place they run in saltwater. Big teams just change engines between races. Small teams clean the PT wheel between races - interesting to watch as the parts are still pretty hot!!

They run extended inlets to try and mitigate it but it is still a big issue.

Ascend Charlie

23rd Oct 2019, 23:21

Yes John, that is the one. Last fire was started by 2 teenage kids, this one looks like it started near the Coolum High School, so probably some Year 12 kid didn't want to do his exams today!

bront

23rd Oct 2019, 23:42

We use salt water in South Africa and there is no visible damage to the vegetation when it regrows that I can see. We've been doing this for 25 years that I personally know of. It's a tiny amount of salt anyway and there is probably more salt deposited by the wind over time.

SnowFella

24th Oct 2019, 03:28

Seen video of the skycrane filling up on saltwater a few years ago during a fire on the NSW coast, guess filling up using the snorkel while on the move limits the effect of any spray kicked up by the rotor.

nomorehelosforme

25th Oct 2019, 11:47

Here is a news report with some pictures and videos of this weeks California fires, these pictures really show what the firefighting teams are up against and the tragic loss of homes and property as people have to evacuate.

Los Angeles area residents ran for their lives on Thursday evening as wildfires, whipped up by strong winds, reached residential neighborhoods, forcing 50,000 evacuations.

Two blazes are threatening LA, while another has taken hold in Sonoma County in California's wine country, where 16,000 acres are burning. Two other fires are moving across the center of the state.

Pacific Gas & Electric said it has discovered a problem with a transmission tower in Sonoma - but that it was too early to say if it was the cause of the blaze. The company had cut power in anticipation of high winds, but left live sections of high-voltage transmission lines, which were blamed for a series of deadly blazes that tore through the same area two years ago, killing 44 people.

This morning, as fire crew battled to contain the fires, it was revealed that six homes had burned down in Los Angeles and 49 buildings had been ravaged by the flames near the wine country town of Geyserville in northern California.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7609231/Hundreds-evacuated-massive-wildfire-spreads-rapidly-Northern-California-70mph-winds.html

Gordy

25th Oct 2019, 14:03

The ramp outside my of my hangar yesterday morning getting ready to go fly. I had 6 helicopters flying for PG&E, (including myself), checking for downed lines. Incidentally, my area was Magalia and Paradise, site of last years deadliest wild fire. No doubt we will be re-assigned to fires.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x826/20191024_070231_1__627460ea5c8f770dcd29686acda53a5317be98f8. jpg

mickjoebill

1st Nov 2019, 08:29

Full marks to KTLA news helicopter which is live streaming to You Tube.
Uninterrupted vision for hours at a time, live pilot mic most of the time.
A fabulous way to educate the public of fire spread and of the workings of ground and aerial firefighting.

The PR value to the aviation industry is enormous. An oil company could at least sponsor your fuel for these flights!

With the advent of ubiquitous 4G in most cities around the globe, Live streaming for hours on end of significant events from a single viewpoint is flourishing. Checkout RUPTLY who use streams provided from Indi journalists around the globe.

mjb

mickjoebill

10th Nov 2019, 15:21

Reporting of the NSW fires in the past few days has included eyewitness accounts from homeowners under direct threat who recall being warned by helicopter sirens.

Is the use of the siren increasing?
Is there a policy on use of sirens as a warning?

I’m all for it, but as usual, the public are not well informed.
What are the public meant to do when a helicopter sounds a siren? Shelter or flee?

In a submission to the Black Saturday Royal Commission I called for helicopters to fly well ahead of a fire front and use sirens to warn communities. Not necessarily to direct them, but initially just to wake them up.

But the introduction of the emergency warning message system, which uses mobile phone and landlines, I thought would provide this advance warning.

But the town of Paradise California, destroyed by wildfire on Nov 8th 2018, showed the shortcomings of an early warning system delivered by a commercial telecommunications network. The majority of emergency warning messages were not received. In some areas, the failure rate was 95%.

The fire started at 6.50 am and impacted the town an hour later. Paradise was a nice spot to retire so many residents were not too active at 8 am.

Paradise had become reliant on wireless delivery for voice and broadband. The trusty, fire resilient, copper landline has been marginalised. Seven wireless towers were knocked out simultaneously.

Fibre optic is not ubiquitous in rural areas due to the cost of rollout.

Australia has gone the same way. 80-85% of premises in NBN fixed wireless zones (rural areas) have disconnected their copper land line. At the time the Royal Commission published its report, it was forecast that the majority of premises in rural areas would maintain a landline, but the opposite has occurred. The LNP favoured more wireless and less landlines in rural areas.

Communications failure was not on the radar so government policy was based on the network being as resilient in the future as it had been in the past. The center piece of reform generated by the Royal Commission was the emergency warning system. Australia led the world in its activation, but it relies on a reliable comms network for distribution.
VoIP presents an additional hurdle to identify and prioritise callers.

To make matters worse, since 2016, mobile phone carriers have been encouraged to install antennas on NBN towers. This often occurs in high risk bushfire areas where mobile phone blackspot funding has subsidised the telco. The unintended consequence is that a community receives mobile phone, VoIP and internet service from a single tower. The landline is usually disconnected due to the additional $55 per month cost of keeping it active.
Most of the public are unaware of this reliance on a single tower.

You can identify a nbn monopole tower as it has a circular gantry. If it also has a set of antennas located below the gantry then it is one of these co-located towers which is a particularly critical piece of infrastructure.

In the Macedon Ranges, in Victoria, approx 7 of the 14 NBN towers are planned to have mobile phone equipment attached. Endurance of backup batteries under heavy use is only 3 hours.
There is no legal requirement for towers to have permanent generators, two of the mobile phone towers atop the strategic location of Mount Macedon, do not have permanent generators.

There are no bushfire related studies into this rapid change to wireless.
The politicisation of the NBN has had a chilling effect on research and reporting.

So, based on Paradise and the NBN network, the use of helicopters as an early warning tool in Australian rural areas should be given more weight in the public warning strategies of emergency management.

A turbine and siren screaming overhead or a “ping” from your phone on the bedside table?
Which is the effective wake-up call?

On the 10th anniversary of Black Saturday, Australia’s two top fire scientists wrote that the nation had become complacent to the threat of bushfires.

Last week the Governor of California called for more resilience in telco infrastructure, Australia lacks this kind of leadership.

https://youtu.be/C9DYEoxaVxs

Love to hear your experiences on how the public react to skyshout. when under threat of bushfire.

Mjb

Gordy

10th Nov 2019, 16:13

But the town of Paradise California, destroyed by wildfire on Nov 8th 2018, showed the shortcomings of an early warning system delivered by a commercial telecommunications network. The majority of emergency warning messages were not received. In some areas, the failure rate was 95%.

The fire started at 6.50 am and impacted the town an hour later. Paradise was a nice spot to retire so many residents were not too active at 8 am.

Paradise had become reliant on wireless delivery for voice and broadband. The trusty, fire resilient, copper landline has been marginalised. Seven wireless towers were knocked out simultaneously.
Love to hear your experiences on how the public react to skyshout. when under threat of bushfire.
Mjb

From someone who was there by 07:20 that morning, it would not have helped. That fire grew so fast that by the time those who would have initiated helicopter sirens figured it out, it was too late. Also not too many helicopters have sirens, (extra weight and all).

Also, there was only limited ways out and the skyway was already blocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3OX1PR2SCM

sycamore

10th Nov 2019, 16:32

Gordy

10th Nov 2019, 17:01

Gordy, been watching the tankers out of Redding,Red bluff,and further South...Well organised.....looked at OZ,but could only find a Conair RJ,,unless they don`t use tanker,spotter c/signs....
Keep up the good work.....are you in a UH-1..?

Red Bluff is not a tanker base, but they do fly over it. The Norcal ones are Redding, Chico and McClellan for the large tankers. The S-2's can go almost anywhere they can get topped off. They use all sorts from the 747, DC-10's ConAirs, P3's, I think the Neptunes are all done now, RJ 85's, C-130's, MD-87's and BAE 146's, and then of course all the Air Tractors. I might have missed some.

They use King Air's as lead planes and Cal Fire uses Bronco's--callsign "Air Attack". We use Astar's, 407's, L4's and even Jet Rangers as Helco--callsign "Helco".

Astar's, 407's, L4's and even Jet Rangers acan be used on exclusive use contracts doing initial attack, but slowly being taken over by 205's.

I have a fleet of Bell 212, 205, UH-1H, 2 X 407's, 4 X L4's, one Astar, one Jet Ranger. I fly all but the 212 and 205. I prefer doing Helco these days.

Day one on Camp Fire in Pradise:
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/20181108_140309_0d7badb4183ab3b93ed1bb5aee000bada623e5e4.jpg

hueyracer

11th Nov 2019, 07:59

Ah.. That's the downside of having the "wrong" passport...

While there are hardly any jobs for pilots here in Europe, you guys seem to have plenty of work...!

(as usual, take my bitchy comments with a pinch of salt... Then add lemon and Tequila to it... Et voila!)

Gordy

11th Nov 2019, 15:37

Ah.. That's the downside of having the "wrong" passport...
While there are hardly any jobs for pilots here in Europe, you guys seem to have plenty of work...!

Yep, if you showed up on the door with the right passport, license and more importantly skill set---I would hire on the spot.

(as usual, take my bitchy comments with a pinch of salt... Then add lemon and Tequila to it... Et voila!)

There is never a bad time to drink tequila.....

nomorehelosforme

19th Nov 2019, 19:38

Quite a good video of a Sky Crane at work firefighting in Australia

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=uvNkT_1573549204

SnowFella

20th Nov 2019, 02:23

And while it might not be a helicopter a rather decent video of one of 10 Tankers DC-10's doing it's thing not far from Sydney, only arrived last week.
https://youtu.be/hwCHeu31IIY

Twist & Shout

20th Nov 2019, 04:32

SnowFella

Nice video - thanks for sharing

berlioz

22nd Nov 2019, 08:50

SASless

13th Jan 2020, 12:19

I watched the film "Only the Brave" last night.

When you fly fires you become very close to those you fly support for....and develop a loyalty with when it comes to helping them when they are at risk and need help.

Part of your US Forest Service required training as a Pilot is how to deploy an Emergency Fire Shelter..

As you lay there on the ground with that bit of flimsy fabric between you and the Fire has got to be a terrible thing.

Hats off to the Hot Shots, Smoke Jumpers, and others who confront the Bear!

The film is about the Granite Mountain Hot Shots and the Yarnell Canyon Fire.

If you fly fires....you will know what this is all about.

Those guys needed help but it did not make it to them in time...though pilots tried.

https://azstateparks.com/hotshots/the-hotshots/about-the-hotshots

Gordy

13th Jan 2020, 16:28

I watched the film "Only the Brave" last night.
When you fly fires you become very close to those you fly support for....and develop a loyalty with when it comes to helping them when they are at risk and need help.

A great film, see the trailer here:

https://youtu.be/SQAUY24wzdQ

The film did a pretty good job of showing how fires work, there were a couple things I disagreed with, namely the shot crew would not belittle another crew. There are some politics involved, and the biggest question of all: Why did they leave their safety zone? Some have surmised that because they were primarily a "city" crew, as in their first priority was in saving homes, their "leader" reverted to this mindset. In true "wild land fire" situations and also aviation, our mindset is "unless we are saving puppies and kittens, let it burn, it is just acreage and houses---homes will be rebuilt".

I will go on a limb here while fire, especially in Australia is on people's minds. In the US, most of the kids on the fire line are getting minimum wage, no medical, health or life insurance. When **** goes down, there is nothing to help them. In Australia, I know most are volunteers. We have a charity here in the US that has the "52 club"---basically, would you give a buck a week to help a fellow fire fighter in need......I have done for 14 years now.....maybe if you have a spare shekel or two? At the very least take a look, I know 4 people in this video alone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieaIR6sFxJI&t=800s

Website Here (https://wffoundation.org/)

SASless

13th Jan 2020, 22:45

The Captain on Iron 44 was a friend.....and a darn good Helicopter Pilot.

Gordy

13th Jan 2020, 22:52

The Captain on Iron 44 was a friend.....and a darn good Helicopter Pilot.
Indeed....I did not know Roark but had flown on fires with him. I did know Jim Ramage the USFS inspector pilot on-board who also died. He used to work at the company I now run, and had given me my carding ride that year. I was just flying within 2 miles of the crash site a few weeks back.

mickjoebill

22nd Jan 2020, 22:41

Helicopter "monitoring" bushfire in Kyneton "clipped" a wire.
Damage to windscreen reported.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/north-west/atsb-to-investigate-after-helicopter-hits-powerlines-at-bushfire-near-kyneton/news-story/7e63043cf3dab8bafe1779075f8ad4de?utm_source=Herald%20Sun&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial

Mjb

Gordy

23rd Jan 2020, 02:53

Helicopter "monitoring" bushfire in Kyneton "clipped" a wire.

Just heard a rumor of a tanker going down in the Snowy Monaro....nothing further at this time.

John Eacott

23rd Jan 2020, 03:32

Just heard a rumor of a tanker going down in the Snowy Monaro....nothing further at this time.

C-130 missing; unable to upload screenshots from subscriber only newspaper but will keep trying.

https://twitter.com/NSWRFS/status/1220185124391702534?ref_src=twsrc%5Etwitterkit

N134CG

https://7news.com.au/news/bushfires/large-water-bombing-aircraft-has-crashed-at-peak-view-reports-c-661253?fbclid=IwAR0ZmJsAQ6MkwrTFccVQ1_mU8jby2scKWC75PfZmGT9S qOS_VH8AyC8UjlM

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-23/nsw-rfs-air-tanker-crashes-near-numeralla-bushfire/11893554?fbclid=IwAR1fNJObDxRnY-nZlqNcTob88USyw5r0Rkmodq80i-SHgO4zijsrXoGHZaw (https://7news.com.au/news/bushfires/large-water-bombing-aircraft-has-crashed-at-peak-view-reports-c-661253?fbclid=IwAR0ZmJsAQ6MkwrTFccVQ1_mU8jby2scKWC75PfZmGT9S qOS_VH8AyC8UjlM)

SRFred

23rd Jan 2020, 03:52

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/629086-c130-down-ne-cooma.html

SRFred

28th Jan 2020, 07:39

Meanwhile **** happens!

It looks like the Orroral Valley fire was started by a defence chopper.

The Department of Defence has admitted the fire was likely caused by one of its own helicopters, after one its landing lights created enough heat to set the grass on fire.

"The fire started during routine aerial reconnaissance and ground clearance work being conducted in the area in support of our local firefighters and authorities," Emergency Services Minister Mick Gentleman said on behalf of Defence.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-28/namadgi-orroral-valley-fire-to-canberras-south-worsening/11907438

RickNRoll

30th Jan 2020, 05:31

It didn't just start the fire, it was completely enveloped by it. It also sustained some damage. Could have been a lot worse.

https://the-riotact.com/army-helicopter-believed-to-have-caused-orroral-valley-fire/353462

nomorehelosforme

16th Jul 2020, 00:25

Saw this earlier, just interested about how much benefit this could potentially bring to the fire fighting teams around the world, obviously different countries and even regions have to deal with various terrains, availability of support resources and all the other surprises thrown at you while doing a days work!

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/fighting-forest-fires-at-night-bc-wildfire-service-successfully-tests-night-vision-helicopter-operations-1.5022933

There is a new weapon in B.C.’s forest firefighting arsenal.

After two years of planning, the BC Wildfire Service has successfully tested a helitanker --a helicopter with a water tank-- equipped with night vision goggle technology.

“It is a game changer,” said Leanne Ingham, superintendent of aviation management for the BC Wildfire Service.

Nighttime aerial firefighting occurs in other jurisdictions, such as California, but if implemented here, it would be a Canadian first.

"It won’t be used everywhere….but this gives us more tools in our toolbox," Ingham added.

Nighttime aerial operations would be advantageous because conditions at night are often better for fighting fires.

"The temperatures are down, the humidity is up and often the wind is down. So it makes the water that much more effective coming from the aircraft," she said.

The aircraft being used is an Airbus AS365 N2 Dauphin, owned and operated by Talon Helicopters, based in Richmond.

The aircraft has been outfitted with a 900L tank on its belly, along with a custom night vision-friendly instrument panel in the cockpit.

"Every single bulb and instrument has had to be modified,” said Murray. "So it doesn’t interfere with the pilot's vision at night or with the use of the night vision goggles.

Normally, aerial operations have to cease at sunset, but Murray says the new technology, which has been approved for use by Transport Canada will "allow us to keep flying all night, if required."

The technology also has the potential to expand operations at night for search and rescue groups.

For wildfire operations, the next step is to conduct tests on live fires. So far, tests have been limited to controlled campfires.

"There are some things we can’t test in a controlled environment,” said Ingham, citing the unpredictability of conditions in a live fire situation. "But we’re pretty optimistic.”

[email protected]

16th Jul 2020, 06:00

Flying around forest fires with NVG is OK as long as you aren't looking directly at the fire itself as the goggles will close down and you won't see much else.

I would always want NVG when flying at night but it won't be a magic bullet in those conditions and pilots need to be very careful.

berlioz

16th Jul 2020, 07:58

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1632x1224/firefighting_525c3c59d6bca42a24d9fe08dcfb0fc7c1a85834.jpg
FireFighting Season 2020 Portugal, AS350 and B412 on the back

Gordy

16th Jul 2020, 16:18

Saw this earlier, just interested about how much benefit this could potentially bring to the fire fighting teams around the world, obviously different countries and even regions have to deal with various terrains, availability of support resources and all the other surprises thrown at you while doing a days work!

There are a few units conducting night time fire fighting in the US. Down in the Los Angeles and San Diego basins it is common practice. The US Forest Service started about 4 years ago with a dedicated program based in Fox Field, just North of the Los Angeles basin.

Colorado State now has a program that is just starting their second season. I went to a briefing given by Vince Wellbaum the head of their program recently. A few observations:

Fire Fighting by helicopter is a little more complex than most realize, you cannot just get a helicopter, throw on a bucket and start dropping. There is a learning curve.
While not "dangerous", (her indoors would never let me out of the house...lol), it does have risk associated with it, and that risk needs to be managed.
Aircraft selection is critical, I am surprised that BC went with an aircraft that no-one else is using on fires--why re-invent the wheel?
When starting night time operations, SLOW everything down. Colorado initially only allowed night ops on a fire that had been seen and re-conned by the pilot during the day and they had further restrictions in place.
It is prolly best to use pumpkins or some other man made dip site initially until you are well practiced.

I wish them well....these are changing times in the world of aerial firefighting, I have seen the general tactics slowly change over the last 15 years, and more so here in California since the Carr and Paradise fires. People are scared, and freak out when they see smoke these days. One of the biggest changes is "bigger is better", and "sooner than later". We are seeing a full dispatch of engines, air attack platform, helicopter and two fixed wing tankers on just a smoke report her in CA, where as it used to be send an engine to confirm first and then order up what you think was needed. Also, with the abundance of Black Hawks now, they are showing up on smaller and smaller fires, it is only 15 years ago that I would be the only helicopter working a fire for about a week, and that was in a Long Ranger---these days the cavalry arrives and I go sit back at base in my hammock.......:cool::cool: