Checklists?

[GrassStrip]

I would like to canvass opinion on the laminated checklists, the likes of transair sell.

I'm currently flying a C150 (not long past my test) and as all the checks haven't sunk in, i'm still using my flying school's checklist book - but this is quite bulky and i'm finding a lot of it i don't need.

These laminated checklists look quite handy, being small and hard wearing and they seem to contain all the relevant information - does anyone use them? Would you like to pass comment?

Thanks...

[FlyingForFun]

The definitive checklist which you should be using is the one in the aircraft's POH.

Of course, refering to the POH every time you fly the aircraft is inconvenient, which is why your school, and Transair, and lots of other people produce, sell, distribute, etc their own versions.

My suggestion would be to use whatever you find most convenient. But before you use it, compare it with the POH checklist, and use a marker to add anything in the POH checklist which is missing from the one you've bought and which you would most likely forget if you didn't add it. Also add anything else that you think is relevant (I haven't yet found a POH that includes turning your mobile phone off as part of the pre-flight, but I still find it handy to add it to my own checklists, for example). A checklist is a constantly-evolving thing which gets added to each time you discover something new which is worth checking.

FFF
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[IO540]

A plane should come with a correct checklist which relates to the POH for that actual plane - it should be the responsibility of the school/club from which it is being hired to make sure there is one.

On a plane which you own yourself you might have to produce one yourself. I had to do this; I started with the POH but unfortunately this did not cover any of the optional avionics so a custom checklist was produced and laminated.

[Onan the Clumsy]

John Deakin wrote a column for Avweb - one of his first - entitled "Throw that checklist away".

Obviously a title designed to garner controversy, but, as he proceeded to point out, not necessarily bad advice.

Why? because a lot of the checklists that you see either contain pointless items like "remove pitot cover" or, if you look at a pre 1976 (non GAMA) POH are woefully inadequate.

As has been pointed out above, a checklist should be personal and evolve. If you constantly forget an item, put it in twice, or in red. If you have special equipment like an aotopilot, add it. Perhaps an item like 'switch lights on if after dark' MAY be removed. (do you need a reminder when you're in your car?) It's supposed to be a document to help you fly not a crutch without which flight is impossible.

Let's add the standard disclaimer here that I'm not saying you fly without one - quite the opposite in fact, especially considering your experience level (congratulations btw :ok: ) You might try making one that you feel comfortable with and get with an instructor to ask for his (or her :)) opinion.

As your experience level increases, you'll adapt your checklist to suit your style of flying.

One last note. My understanding is that as the equipment gets larger, check lists become just that, a back up check. Rather than read each item and react to it, the pilot uses a memorised flow pattern to configure the aircraft and the checklist to verify the configuration.

Good question though.

[BigEndBob]

Beauty of writing your own checklist is that all items can be put in a logical order.

I have found in most aircraft having closed hatchess, adjusted seat, harness and brake on, most items follow a logical sequence clockwise across the instrument panel then down and back across engine controls and gauges then anticlockwise in the reverse direction after engine start.

If not using a checklist this is the procedure i have used on all the aircraft i have flown.

[Miserlou]

Most hire aircraft in Denmark have checklists in them. These are half an A4 sheet of paper (cut down the longitudinal axis) and laminated. There is usually an emergency checklist on red paper too. These are full checklists and include a crosswind chart, important speeds and the club's phone number and frequency.

Once you've tried one yourself you'll laugh at the clumsy booklet type lists and why people bother with them.

Personally I prefer not to use one in favour of developing a fixed routine. This was essential for flying skydivers where there is perhaps only one or two minutes between touchdown and take-off. The Pilatus Porter has five essential items pre-take-off. Tailwheel, trims, flaps, fuel, prop. This flows from my left knee clockwise to my right knee though if I'm rusty I would often use the above mentioned type checklist on the first flight of the day.

So, for checklists, small is beautiful.

[Philip Whiteman]

Of course, as the machine becomes more complex, so the need for a checklist becomes unavoidable. However, the risk is that one tends to lose the plot - the overall picture of what is vital to safe flight: I still finish off with the old Throttle-Trim-Mixture-Prop-Fuel-Flaps mnemonic

[Flyin'Dutch']

As so often it very much is a case of horses for courses.

When I fly my Condor I don't need a checklist as the standard mnemonics will do.

When flying something more complex with more systems or if I fly something new or infrequent a good checklist is important.

Ideally I make my own based on my personal preferences and the POH.

For those sessions which are only a one time off the POH will suffice.

FD

[360BakTrak]

Why not use the POH and the club checklist to make your own in the size and format you find easier to use?
I did that with the aircraft I currently fly as the checklist I was given wasn't exactly the best quality and rather unclear.
As long as all the relevant points are in there. Mnemonics might help you learn checks a little easier too without constant reference to the list, such as emergencies etc.

[MLS-12D]

Good advice offered above.

A common problem with many (most?) of the commercially-prepared checklists is that they offer too much detail (I don't really need all of the V speeds printed out, or separate checklists for normal, short field and soft field landings). See this example (http://www.surecheckaviation.com/checklists/pro.html). As a result, they are great references for a quick review before flying the aircraft (particularly helpful if you switch back and forth between different types, as many of us do), but they are not suitable for use in the aircraft.

"Sure Check" makes a stripped-down "pocket version" that would be more suitable for airborne use (see this example (http://www.surecheckaviation.com/checklists/pocket.html#)); and if price is no object, "Check Mate" also has an abbreviated "QuickMate" (see example (http://www.checkmateaviation.com/Products/QuickMate/quickmate.html)) that costs twice as much. However, as has already been suggested, there is a lot to be said for making up your own checklist that meets your individual needs and is custom-tailored to your airplane's equipment.

P.S. I agree with Miserlou: whatever you decide to do, stay away from those clumsy flip-type checklists.

[DFC]

The problem with most checklists I have come across in flying clubs or schools is that they simply are not checklists at all...........they are "do lists".

The average flying club checklist will have every step required to start the engine which is great if one wants to learn how to start the engine. However, once one can start an engine, there is no longer a need for that detailed procedure to be included in the checklist. Thus by catering for the lowest common denominator, flying schools and clubs call their what to do procedure book a checklist.

Personally, I favour the full logical sequential scan where one looks and checks everything is set for start or take-off as appropriate. Provided that the pilot knows how to start the engine and how to turn on the radios and how to complete a run-up, the checklist can be cut down to the essential killer items.....i.e. the items that will kill you if they are missed..............after all, taking off with the radio's off will hardly kill you........and it's very hard to do if you have ATC so why bother wasting a line in the checklist for "turning on the radios"!!

One checklist I came across even had a check for the pilot to "look out for traffic". I was of the opinion that lookout was required at all times - not just when the checklist requires!! :(

Using the POH as a guide, a checklist could simply be;

Brakes ON
Radios Off
Start Engine

Controls Full and Free
Fuel On and Suficient (pump)
Power Check
Security

Pre-landing;

Gear down
Fuel on fullest tank, pump on
Cabin secure


After landing;

Radios off before engine!

Most important of all I think is that a checklist must be used to confirm (check) that an essential action has been completed and not as a daily reminder of the actions required to fly an aircraft.

The biggest pet hate I have is pilots reading the pre-landing checklist, reaching the check "Gear down" and simply moving the lever but not waiting for the result................personally, I prefer the prelanding checklist to be read after the gear is down and the aircraft essentials set.....then it is what is says.....a check of what has been done!

regards,

DFC

[Onan the Clumsy]

I'm with Miserlou.

When I started flying skydivers (in a 182) I made my own checklist and the bloke who owned the airplane asked we what it was. When I told him, he took it from me and said "If you need that, you shouldn't be flying the airplane". It took me a while to understand what he meant, but, as Miserlou points out, before takeoff, landing etc, I checked the essential items using a flow pattern and the rest became pretty much like driving a car.

This isn't to say you shouldn't use one. It's more about putting the checklist in perspective. If I was fortunate enough to be throwing them out of a Porter, I probably would use a check list.

During training we have to stress safety for obvious reasons, but at some point this culture has to give way to airmanship.

[Miserlou]

I'm glad I flew the Porter, Onan, but it's a dog compared with the Beaver!!!

Incidentally, forgetting to reset the elevator trim has cost lives; it got an electric trim because the pilot couldn't operate the trim and hold the stick forward at the same time. Now there's a mod out for an aural warning because even with the electric trim things were still going wrong!

DFC has also raised the issue of checklist philosophy. In commercial flying you find there are different checklists for different phases of flight like flow, challenge and response, read and do etc.

These take account of there being two crew but the philosophies are the same. Most relevant is to do the items on the list and then take the checklist and confirm that all is as it should be.

With regard to the complex types.
The ATR checklist A4 sheet folded vertically in half and printed both sides, pre-start to leaving aircraft.
Now the emergency checklist, that's a different matter!

[Onan the Clumsy]

A Beaver ( I think it was a beaver) got lost over here because of a 'dustless dust devil'. I thought I heard on the radio that one of the pax said he saw the pilot, right after takeoff, furiously winding a handle down between the seats.:hmm:

But then again, I might be wrong.

[Miserlou]

Onan,
That'll be forgetting the flaps which are operated by a manual hydraulic pump between the seats.
You need over 100mph to get airborne without flaps and it comes off mainwheels first.

Don't ask me how I know!!!

[Onan the Clumsy]

:E

[Final 3 Greens]

DFC

The biggest pet hate I have is pilots reading the pre-landing checklist, reaching the check "Gear down" and simply moving the lever but not waiting for the result

Isn't this often the result of less than brilliant instruction?

Surely, the sequence should be 'speed safe (within limits), gear down and landing checklist', with 'gear down and locked' or 'gear down, three greens' as a visual check following after the required amount of time for the cycling to take place.

But how often is it taught this way?

[KCDW]

While I tend to agree with what people are saying, remember that going back to the original question, GrassStrip admits to

"all the checks haven't sunk in"

So, my advice is at this stage to use checklists, and slowly eliminate the sections which have become second nature.

My club prefers the AFE version which are at the "lowest common denominator". For me, after 4 years, The walkaround stuff is now instinctive, and the inflight / post landing stuff is committed to memory/mnemonics, so this just leaves a couple of pages which I would rather spend a minute over than take off wondering whether I had forgotten something.

One day, no doubt, time will come when it will all be welded firmly to my subconcious!

[GrassStrip]

Thanks for some really good advice. I think the best course of action for me is to make a scaled down version of the checklist (you are right about the 'to do' list - my club checklist is a book of nearly 20 pages!!)

So I think if I scale it down to what I forget and what is really important and can put it on my kneeboard, it will sink in much better (and my map won't be fighting with my checklist for space!). This will also help me to try and learn the sequential approach, working from left to right.

Thanks again for the help.

[kabz]

I like the checkmate laminated checklists. They usually include a bunch of POH stuff like speeds and such, and are easy to handle in the cockpit.

Personally, I like to use them as a CHECK list (at least in flight) in the aircraft, just to verify that I hit everything I needed to. Plus, the landing checklist uses a standard GUMPFS acronym which is nice and simple.