Unable RVSM?

[Hulabaloo]

What I would like to know is, has anyone been flying in such airspace, had a failure of say a primary altimeter and reported that to ATC.........what has been their responce?
Have they climbed or descended you out of RVSM airspace or let you continue in RVSM at your current flight level but on a parallel track to your airway?
Anyone been in that situation?

regards to all.

[Phoenix_X]

However, when you are already IN RVSM airspace, things can be different.

We lost the autopilot on the way to the UK, airborne from AGP. Advised ATC and we were told we would receive increased separation. Only thing we noticed was a slightly early descent.

True enough -- good work! We never saw someone withing 2000' close to us. ATC were moderately busy that day.

[BEagle]

Ah - a favourite Cyprus - UK sim scenario I used to employ. At pre-session briefing, ask the crew what fuel they wanted. Then delay their climb with a tech snag such as flap/slat fails to retract; after they've resolved that let them climb but fail an altimeter air data unit to give an 'error' flag. Then sit back and watch the debate. Do they know the rules? Can they work out a plan to achieve destination. A top of climb fuel check would show them to be 'below the line' on fuel - do they know how to calculate reduced contingency fuel? Once they'd sorted themselves out, give them an engine failure/loss of hydraulics and let them manage a diversion to Iraklion. Short, busy session with lots of CRM aspects - and no access to ACARS etc. Most found it very useful - and they were then very well prepared should they have an RVSM problem for real!

[sycamore]

Notso
I hope you didn`t really get a/b after a lightning strike on the ground.:(

[Hulabaloo]

Well thanks for the replies posted so far, Im interested in this subject as I fly mostly 10 hour sectors with three quarters of that time in RVSM airspace.......now it extends from southern Europe through the FIR's of Cairo Jeddah and Sanaa.
Now should we have to descend below RVSM airspace no way are we going to make destination, fuel wise and duty times would be hard pushed trying to get airbourne agian from an enroute alternate that has hardly heard of our airline. So would I be right in thinking with failure of a required piece of equipment, that ATC could accomodate us remaining in RVSM airspace by increasing separation and that most of the time work load wise for ATC this could be accomplished?

[BEagle]

Suspect thatit'd be a bit like MNPS - if the failure happens before entry, keep out. If it happens after entry, tell ATC and you will probably be allowed to continue - but don't expect to be able to change levels until top of descent! Because it's probably safer to keep you where you are than mess everyone else about.

Is it a case that you can't load the extra fuel you'd need to continue below RVSM airspace - or that you don't want to because it's uneconomic? That's a balance of risk that your opertaions planners must surely have addressed?

[Hulabaloo]

Just far too uneconomic to carry extra fuel on every long haul trip to cover the possibility of a failure forcing the call Unable RVSM not only the weight of the extra fuel and burning fuel to carry that but also perhaps having to off load revenue pax or freight to carry it

[galaxy flyer]

I recently lost a CADC at 25W on the NATS and reported "unable RVSM". Shanwick cleared us down from FL340 to FL330 for the rest of the crossing. Upon coast-in, Gander knew we were non-RVSM, but the CADC "recovered" (Lockheed fix) and we pressed on. It was non-event.

GF

[Arkady]

An A/C reporting loss of RVSM status in UK airspace would almost certainly be permitted to continue. You may find that you are asked to change levels by 1000' once or twice to fit in with the traffic or vectored to avoid it. However, if the adjacent unit refuses permission, it becomes our responsibility to drop you out of RVSM airspace before the boundary. That may be more easily achieved earlier rather than later.

In the event of an A/C climbing to RVSM levels becoming non-RVSM, you would probably be stopped off at FL270 or FL280 and your estimate passed at that level. Once the next agency has your details we can start to negotiate, but you will probably find that you will get no further climb until you have been transferred to the adjacent centre.

[ZRH]

We have plenty of military flights and so-called State flights that are buzzing around Europe in RVSM airspace, but aren't RVSM equiped. These flights are allowed to be there but you as the ATC may refuse them if you are too busy. Funny thing is that we work these aircraft every day without too much of a hassle but let a "normal" airliner call in and say that he is suddenly unable-RVSM and the folks immediatly push him down from FL 380 to FL 280. It wasnt my sector, and I didnt want to tell the guys what to do, but nobody phoned the next sector to ask wether they would accept this flight or not. Maybe a panic reaction??!?
I would ask in the same breath that I mention my snag in, if it were at all possible to stay at cruise or climb above(if you're able).

However, my experience with GVA and the french is that they dont even accept approved non-RVSM flights:yuk:

[Arkady]

The rules for the NATS are more rigid because it is a procedural (non-radar) enviroment. Separation is based on the aircrafts ability to fly the specified track at the specified height and speed. If the aircraft is unable to do this then it would be automatically excluded. I doubt if the system can cope with exceptions other than when prior notification is recieved at the track planning stage.

[ferris]

For those travelling to (thru) this region, be aware. The rules are not open to discretion. If you report non-RVSM due equipment, you will be descended out, even if you are the only one in the sky:eek: . The same applies if your flight plan has not been received. No if's, but's, or maybe's.
I don't make the rules.

[Compass Call]

NOTSO
Several years ago we took a lightning strike on the ground with no apparent problem. As the flying spanner, I persuaded the captain to return to the ramp where I got thoroughly soaked inspecting the aircraft. The damage found took two days to repair.
In my opinion flight safety should come first, even if it means the engineer gets wet! :ok:

[ferris]

I was referring to the Gulf.

[DBate]

Happened just yesterday. IR2 was inop. Informed ATC prior entering RVSM airspace: 'Unable RVSM operation.' The only thing that came was 'Thanks for info'.

I guess there shouldn't be a problem flying in central europe.

So long,
DBate

[Check 6]

All European countries gladly allow "state exempt" non-RVSM aircraft operate in RVSM airspace EXCEPT the French. They will not even accept "state exempt" aircraft at FL410.

This suggests that the French skies are crowded with other aircraft at FL400 .........NOT!

Having said that, thanks to the ATC of all the other countries that gladly accept us.

[5milesbaby]

If I was informed an a/c had just changed to non-RVSM and was heading south toward France, I would instantly drop said a/c to FL290, get the standard 'NON' from Monsieur Brest, and then continue the a/c down FL270 and hand-off that way. What happens next can vary, 50% then get climbed back up to FL290+, normally those with French registations or ties. Similar things can be seen heading Maastricht way if the German watch is on, but the climb back up NEVER happens :ok: