Night Rating

[tayyareci]

Hi,

Sorry for being lazy but can anyone please advice me where I can find an information or preferably a written document , regarding if FI(R) can authorise the first night solo during PPL night rating course or not, thanks

[StrateandLevel]

JAR-FCL 1.325 FI(A) Restricted privileges. para b) (1)

"excluding approval of first solo flights by day or by night and first solo navigation flights by day or by night."

Air Navigation Order Schedule 8 Part B.

Now are you being lazy, or did you really not know where to find it?

[tayyareci]

I know it, but I believe this can be a grey area, let me try to express myself. The structure the sentence is made confuses me, because it states 'excluding approval of first solo flights by day OR by night' since the student who is doing the night rating is already holding a PPL and has done is first solo by day, and in the sentence it says "or" not "and" my basic knowledge of logic says to me (1 or 0 =1) and (1 and 0 = 0) so it if the day flight is positive(1) the result is 1 or 0 = 1 so he/she should be able to authorize the first night solo. I think the right way of making the same statement should be "excluding approval of first solo flights by day and by night and first solo navigation flights by day and by night." thanks for the reply and I must have been confused because english is not my mother tongue. :O

[BEagle]

Well, it's obvious - NO! Surely that's blindingly obvious, otherwise it'd just say 'First solo flight'........

A FI(R) can authorize a first night solo (i.e. is physically capable of writing on a piece of paper), but to do so would be contrary to the ANO as Strateandlevel states and hence illegal.

'A FI(R) shall not authorize a first night solo' is probably more correct in JAR-speak......and if you are so keen on trying to be accurate, note that there is no such thing as a 'Night Rating'.

[andrewc]

And as a supplementary question can a UK instructor
give training for the Night Qualification in an N-reg
aircraft to a UK PPL holder and sole owner.

My local instructors are not sure...

-- Andrew

[BEagle]

Hmm - don't know the answer to that. But I suspect that the answer is that the FI would have to hold a yank FI rating in order to conduct training in a yank-registered aeroplane..???

To be on the safe side, I'd recommend that the night trainig should be conducted on a UK-registered ac with a Public Transport CofA - at least then it would have a known maintenance record.

[Keygrip]

BEagle - even over here in the USA, a JAA instructor, instructing certain exercises for a JAA licence or rating, does not HAVE to have an FAA instructor rating.

[BEagle]

Yes - but I'm wondering about the use of N-registered aeroplanes for training in other than the state of registration?

It's legal to give instruction to the owner of a private CofA aeroplane here in the UK - but I'm pretty sure that means a G-registered aeroplane?

Perhaps the FI would merely need to be 'acceptable to the state of registration'?

[homeguard]

Tayyareci wishes to apply logic which seems reasonable to me. This rarely ever happened within the corridors of Kingsway nor ever happened later amongst those at the palace of Gatwick.

However 2+2=4 OR 6-2=4

but also 2+2=4 AND 6-2=4

Take your pick!

excluding approval of first solo flights by day OR by night.
excluding approval of first solo flights by day AND at night.

note the plural of 'flights'. If intended to be one or other condition, that being the first then it would be a singular expression 'flight' whichever was first! But it isn't singular it is plural and so both conditions are excluded as a priviledge to the FI(R).

Just a note for BEagle. A 'Night Validation' is gained during say the training for the PPL but a 'Night Rating' is issued when the priviledge is added after license issue.

'N' reg A/c. I'm pretty sure that quite recently the FAA approved training in a JAA State in 'N' aeroplanes by JAA Instructors as part of the JAA/FAA lets stop falling out and scratch my back i'll scratch yours, kind of thing.

[Keygrip]

Oh oh - homeguard, stand by for attack from BEagle.

Also, FAA allow non FAA instructors to teach towards FAA license and ratings provided all flight is carried out outside of Federal airspace - but in any registration of aircraft. Doesn't have to be an "N" number.

[BEagle]

homeguard - not so for a JAR-FCL licence! There is no longer a Night Rating, it is termed a Night Qualification. The same applies for UK PPL holders who wish to gain approval to fly as Commander at night.

I'm still not clear about whether a non-FAA rated FI or non-FAA licence holder may conduct training for a licence, rating or qualification in a N-registered aeroplane outside the stae of registration, irespective of whether the person under training is or is not the sole owner. I rather think not - but would welcome correction.

I believe there's a parallel with, for example, RU-registered Yaks being used for SEP re-validation proficiency checks?

[andrewc]

Looks like I'm going to have to storm the battlements of
Gatwick to get an answer...

I don't see why the FAA should care if you receive CAA/JAA
training in an N-reg that is otherwise being appropriately
operated.

I also don't see - having peeked at LASORS - where non
initial training in an N-reg should be a problem for the CAA
given that they allow US facilities to train peeps for UK ratings
in the US on N-reg aircraft.

[rant on]
The whole international licensing position on aircraft and
pilot status is complete ar$e. My driving license allows me
to drive a car anywhere in the world...I can also drive
across frontiers without any problem. There is no good reason
why flying should not be like this and plenty of bad reasons
that it isn't.
[rant off]

-- Andrew