Conversion Question

[ILS30LGB]

Hi all,

I am a UK citizen who has been living in the US for 4 years, in which time I have gained my FAA CPL/IR (SE) and CFI. I have around 1400 hrs TT.

I am interested in moving back to the UK and therefore need some advice about my next step.

I intend to convert my FAA quals into JAA and achieve Frozen ATPL status.

I am a little confused as to the current regulations regarding conversions to JAR (they seem to change more frequently than my underpants)

I have been told that I should get my Multi-engine CPL and IR whilst I am here, and convert these when i return. Is this really necessary? or will it save me money in the long run to do this?

Any and all advice greatly appreciated.

[dorosenco]

ILS30LGB,

No, you don't HAVE TO do your ME/IR FAA before converting to JAA. You can decide to take your IR skill test in a SE or ME when getting there. There is no point of taking your IR skill test in a SE since if you want a job you will need a ME IR.
ME flying in the UK is quite more expensive than US, you might want to learn to fly a ME airplane in the US and only do the minimum required for conversion. Also, having a ME IR FAA might help you in the future with potential employers (N-reg aircrafts).

Start studying your ATPLs first, it should take you 8-12 months depending on the amount of work that you are willing to put into it each week (10 months if you put ~15hrs/week).

You should plan ~$15k for conversion and roughly 10-12 mohths to get your fATPL in your hands.

good luck,
:ok:

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi ILS30LGB,

I'm in a similar situation as you licence wise, although I am yet to obtain a CFI certificate and have just over 500 hours (studying for the FOI and CFI writtens at the moment).

My intention is to convert my FAA CPL/IR (SE) over to a JAA CPL/IR "fATPL". To do this I am required to complete:

1) FAA ME / JAA ME courses. The FAA ME Add-On will comprise a couple of approaches to add the the ME to the FAA IR privilages. As I already have a JAA PPL/IMC I'm going to have the JAA ME added to the PPL. I'm off to an FAA / JAA school in Florida next March for the course.

2) JAA ATPL Written Exams after an approved course at a training provider. Takes 6 months residential or 1 year distance learning (approx).

3) JAA CPL Skills Test with training as determined by the CFI.

4) JAA IR 15 Hour Flight Training Course with the IR flight test afterwards.

If you would like to instruct, you will also need to go through a full JAA FI(R) course and flight test, even though you have an FAA CFI certificate.

If you had an FAA ATP with type rating, a vast amount of time on type etc, then you'd be exempt from formal ground school (but not the exams) and also formal IR flight training.

The above is how I understand the situation of converting the FAA certificates over to their JAA counterparts, if any of this is wrong then I wouldn't mind being corrected...

"Edit: Spelling Mistakes"

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[dorosenco]

only one comment Charlie Zulu:

- there is a short route to your JAA FI(R) if you hold an ICAO CFI license. it only requires 30hrs ground and 15hrs flight ...

:D

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Dorosenco,

Thank you for that, I didn't actually know. I really should have read Lasors before replying to the post!!

To be eligible for this, would you be required to have previously sent people off on solo's with the FAA CFI rating? Or would holding the FAA CFI (or CFII) rating be sufficient?

That'll be cutting down on some costs for the JAA FI(R) rating for me! ;-) (Will be obtaining an FAA CFI and latterly the CFII before the JAA course).

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[ILS30LGB]

Thanks for the info....

I guess the best thing for me to do is gain some cheap(er) twin time and experience by completing my my ME IR and ME CPL here in the US.

Then return to the UK and complete the dreaded ATPL writtens, then go ahead a do the conversions.

12 months away from flying for the exams is also a worry for me......



Assuming I sail through the ATPL writtens is it possible to do the JAA Multi-engine Class Rating at the same time as the JAR ME CPL, thereby reducing the total hours required? Is it possible to do both in the 6 hours required for the ME Class Rating?

Any advice for the best schools in the UK for the writtens and then the conversion flying?

Thanks again.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi ILS30LGB,

Are you returning to the UK within the next year or so? If not then there is at least one ATPL Written course provider based in Florida. They conduct full time residential and distance learning courses. The exams are taken up in Orlando.

As for "best" school in the UK, you'll probably get all sorts of recommendations from people on pprune, but the "best" is the school (or schools) that suits you and your needs.

Personally for the flight training I'm going to use either Aeros or Bristol Flying Centre and ground school, well since the flight training exhibition at LHR on Saturday, I'm torn between Bristol Ground School and London Metropolitan University (Distance Learning for me as I can't afford to take the time off work).

If anyone is thinking "why is he replying at 2am in the morning?", well I'm on night shift and pprune is one way of getting me through the night without falling asle....... :zzz:

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[ILS30LGB]

I am actually travelling to the UK on Dec 16th so I have to get moving on this .. haha
Shouldnt be a problem, I can work at it full-time and I reckon I only need about 20 hours flight time to get the ME CPL/IR done, and I have an examiner ready.

I have been told that a seneca is £300 an hour dual in the UK, is this accurate?

and a sim is about £100 an hour, right?

Just trying to get some figures worked out....

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi ILS30LGB,

That soon!

Rough price quide:

Your costs for the Seneca and Simulator are about right.

ATPL Distance Learning - £2,000 (approx)
CAA Written Examination Fees - £728 (£52 per paper)

CAA Test Examiner Fee £607 (1 each for CPL and IR tests)

Commercial Training costs in a single engine are around the best part of the £200 mark.

Add to the course(s) aircraft hire for the tests (the £607 doesn't include the aircraft, it is merely the examiners fee per test, even if it is a re-test - I'm in the wrong job!!!!).

You asked in an earlier post about carrying out the JAA CPL on an ME - that is possible. But as always it'll be more expensive... (!)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[dorosenco]

ILS30LGB,

If you have a FAA CPL/ME there is no 6 hrs requirement anymore. The MEP is REALLY easy, a friend of mine did it one Sunday afternoon without even preparing it (hadn't flown a multi in 7 years !).

Your prices are about right, I paid 300p/hr for a brand new PA44 with HSI, de-ice, dual GNS430, RMI, etc ...
I strongly suggest to find an aircraft that has a RMI and not an RBI only. It will help a lot with the NDB approaches.

Again, I ended up by paying $15k with minimums (15hrs IR, 10hrs CPL, first time ATPL passes).

good luck my friend ...

[ILS30LGB]

Thanks Guys,

1 last question - for now at least.

dorosenco, you mentioned that you completed your conversion at minimums, 15hr IR and 10hr CPL, I didnt realise there was a minimum for CPL. Have I jumped to the wrong conclusion?

[dorosenco]

no, there is no CPL minimum. but flight schools suggest that 10hrs is a minimum. it took me 10 (including the flight test 2.5hrs) ...

ALSO !!!
If you still live in Long Beach try Oxford Aviation in Phoenix for your CPL conversion !!! They are opening something there with Sabena Training Center...

The IR must be done in european airspace.

SOMETHING ELSE !!!
Do not think that you really need a MEP. MEP means Multi Engine Piston Class rating which is useless if you want to fly a turboprop. Some people do not have a MEP at all. The IR is ME which means multi-engine class, valid for ANY multi engined aircraft ...