MYT

[Hulk Hogan]

MyTravel have issued what seems to be another profit warning blaming a weak late summer season due to holidays been sold at discount rates. Some people think this was to be expected whilst others seem surprised.

MyTravel say they have further non core businesses that are to be sold to raise cashflow and that winter 2003/2004 and summer 2004 was encouraging and within acceptable limits.

What are your views on MyTravel chance of survival? Do you think they will reduce the company to just uk operations and sell off everything else or do you think it's the beginning of the end.

I hope they pull through, lots of people did not think they would still be here in November.

[Easy Glider]

They face a massive up hill struggle to survive. Many companies in similar situations over the years are not here now to tell the tale.

[willoman]

In medical terms. they are in a coma. Survival depends on whether the shareholders decide later this month if the life support system presently supporting them is to be continued or switched off. It is too close to call.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

I think it could well be the beginning of the end and I hope to God i'm wrong.

Friends I know at MYT have told me that they have been flying punters round this summer for peanuts just to fill the aeroplanes up.

I am certain there will be lots more selling off of the family silver but whether there is enough to plug the hole is anyones guess.

[LGW Vulture]

Results like this and now it has to get thru the winter!

Take the Raybans off, its the night vision goggles they'll be needing! :uhoh:

[kinsman]

Well we were told it would go bust last Winter and again this spring and yet again we were told we would not make it out of October. So you will excuse me if I don't put to much store in news paper reports or remarks made here. That said things could be better!

The share holders will not decide the future it will be the banks! Cash flow is the key and at the moment a lot of cash is being generated from asset sales. Will it be enough? One thing is for certain no one on this forum knows the answer to that one.

[Jack The Lad]

My Travel is definitely not in good shape. Nor indeed are many of the UK charterers this year either. Package demand is well down on expectations and bookings

My Travel is no exception, but maybe their problems are greater than most due to their exposure in the market place.

IMHO, the biggest mistake they ever made was changing their original business model. That was that they would only ever deploy their resources to fly their winter aircraft capacity, and 'outsource' the rest. They forgot that concept and now find themselves in a muddle.

Great shame

[one truevoice]

They will be gone by April.

They have retired the only aircraft they owne, the dreaded DC10's.

God Bless them, I hope they make it to the suuny season, however my feelings are that they will get caught by the winter cold.

[MissChief]

All will be ok at MYT, and it is another major travel company which is soon to go under. (Sorry for their people)

[kinsman]

This whole industry is in such a mess I think it is time to consider a change of scene!

one truevoice "gone by April" such statements help no one! You like others make these statements with no knowledge.

[Paterbrat]

That the situation is not good is undisputable, but isn't it great to see the doomsayers however are ever with us. The adage that the only news is bad news, is unfortunately only too true. There appears to be a fascination for the gloomy salacious or problematical. The rubber necking at the scene of an accident the attraction of the blood gore at accidents, companies collapsing.
Perhaps is is some form of relief that bad things are going somewhere else. Just consider Hulk, today takes you personaly one step closer to your demise, now is that a fact, bad news or perhaps something we can all speculate on. One True Voice could knock us up a sandwich board and parade it around, Willowman could put his stethescope to Hulks chest and confirm our (worst) fears, and we could all cluster round an comiserate wow what a bad news party we could have. Oops heard a crash over there sorry gotta rush.:hmm:

[COWPAT]

Hey Paterbrat, brilliant post. A very good point, hilariously made. The other side of the coin though (for those of us that follow monty python) is whistling "Always look on the bright side of life" as the receivers are called in.

All depends on an individuals personal outlook on life I guess. I'd rather have a night in the bar with guys with your attitude though.

And on a more serious note. Good luck to all the guys and girls at MYT. Been there, done that and its not nice.

[kinsman]

Outstanding post!

[dada]

STOP IT NOW. first we were afraid we were petrified, kept thinking we can never live without my by mytravel side...........
we will survive, we will survive oh yeh

[tailscrape]

miss chief.

So, which other major travel company is going bust then? DHL?

[unwiseowl]

Perhaps she refers to this: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108122

[Easy Glider]

If Miss Chief is refering to Thomas Cook, it must be said that the U.K division at least, is the only part of the company actually making money.

[Hulk Hogan]

I'm am sure the share holders will agree to the sale of the businesses that have been sold otherwise they will never see a return on their money.

I think MyTravel will be here by the start of the summer season and I hope they have a good one.

[unwiseowl]

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/tw_news/article.asp?ID=19507

[Air Mail]

Dare I mutter those words - debt for equity swap?

Worked last year for Marconi, NTL and Telewest.

The banks usually try and claw some money back, rather than write off billions.

[smallpilot]

Air Mail - I think you are along the right lines.
MYT has said it made no money over the summer and if the busineses it proposes to sell are not sold then it will run out of working capital. As you say, the banks are owed a lot of money and they will be keen to see a return so I think it will be some kind of debt/equity swap with the current shareholders the ones to lose out. Reminds me of a certain large Hotels group which has had similar problems and is effectively owned by RBS bank now.

[U/S President]

From the Circular Regarding the EGM:

If any of the disposals Cruise Disposal, the Auto Europe Disposal or the WCT Disposal is not completed or the other assumptions set out above are not fulfilled, the Continuing MyTravel Group would require additional sources of working capital. The Board has identified further businesses and assets for disposal and will seek to negotiate and complete these disposals in case such additional working capital is required.

If additional working capital is required and such further disposals are not completed, or are completed but do not provide sufficient working capital, the Continuing MyTravel Group would require additional facilities in order to have sufficient working capital and would require consent from the Affected Lenders for that purpose.

The Continuing MyTravel Group may not be able to obtain such facilities and such consent may not be given. If these circumstances occur and the Continuing MyTravel Group is not able to obtain additional facilities, the Continuing MyTravel Group would not have sufficient working capital for its present requirements.

[unwiseowl]

A D4E swop was always likely. Trouble is, there's too much D and not enough E. Things don't look at all good. I do hope I'm wrong though.

[kinsman]

Bet the Mail do a good balanced report in the morning!

[ChrisDobison]

I hope My Travel does survive. If not, my dad is out of a senior management position in the retail chain and my mam will be out of an assistant manager role in one of the stores!!

Before I joined NATS, I worked at Going Places off and on over a period of 3 years and they are trying to streamline the business for the better. However, a big shop was built in the Northeast to relocate a previously significantly smaller unit into - the first store had 6 desks, the new one has nearly 20 desks - problem is, they no longer have any staff to fill them all anyway!!! Whenever I go to visit now I frequently only see 4-5 staff on maximum which is a great shame.

Going Places also tried to revolutionise the way people book holidays by piloting (excuse the pun) a scheme involving "Welcome Hosts" in the shops, this freed up agents to deal with holiday enquiries and means brochure requests got handled by somebody not trained in the Viewdata systems.

In all, to stop boring you - I am confident My Travel will survive, they've made some daft decisions which have helped cripple them but they will cling on then hopefully claw back. Because of our family links, we have flown Airtours/My Travel now for 10 years and unless they do fold I will continue to do so.

Chris

[FD Standby]

Cheers Chris,

You make a very valid point.

With all the restructuring, and re-assesing going on, If they make it out the oter side of the financial crisis they could wll be a very lean, and mean operation.

They are making some good and sensible (first in a while) decisions, that given the chance, will be setting examples.

They have been forced into this position by previous incompetents, I can see the silver lining; lets hope we all get to see it!!

[EPRman]

From the TTG:

November 7th 2003 -02:08 PM

Summer losses at MyTravel have left the company with “insufficient” cash to survive winter, the group has admitted.
A company spokesman said: “It is now up to the banks to make a decision on whether there is still a viable entity coming out of this.”
In a profits warning, the company predicted it had made operating losses during the key summer months – the period operators rely on to make money.
It blamed the weak late-sales market and a new accounting procedure for its position, and admitted overcapacity and poor margins had left it exposed.
In the same six-month period last year, MyTravel made £130 million.
In a statement, the group admitted it had insufficient funds to get through the next 12 months, and conceded its future now depends on:
• Shareholder approval of the sale of US cruise, car hire and hotel booking businesses
• Bookings continuing at “satisfactory levels and acceptable margins”
• Agreement by the CAA not to suspend its bond
The group is understood to have written to overseas suppliers to ask for 90 days’ credit to see it past the January peak sales period. But hoteliers are said to be reluctant to comply.
The desperate situation emerged as MyTravel confirmed its latest fire sale, with US car hire business Auto Europe disposed of for £50 million.
In a statement, MyTravel chairman Eric Sanderson admitted: “The group’s earnings and cash flows will remain subject to significant risk through its high fixed-cost structure and high levels of indebtedness.”
Banks and regulators were informed of MyTravel’s predicament before the group issued the profits warning.
The CAA’s inaction suggests it believes MyTravel has a fighting chance.
But the next few weeks are crucial because traditionally fewer bookings are made.
The authority is always reluctant to intervene during the summer, when more customers are abroad. It also prefers to allow operators the chance to boost coffers during the peak.
However, MyTravel’s admission prompted calls for the CAA to step in now the summer is over.
Rivals are unhappy the group was allowed to continue trading this year, and blame it for fuelling overcapacity and lowering prices in the late sales period.
“Everyone complained to the CAA last time,” said an industry expert.
Another said: “The question now is ‘what is the CAA going to do?’.”
MyTravel insisted a revival was still possible.
A spokesman said: “If MyTravel gets the working capital to see it through the winter, then at that point we should start to see some impact of the turnaround.”
But he conceded an original timescale had slipped.
“In March, we said it would take two years before we start making significant progress in terms of climbing back towards the black, but it’s going to take a lot longer than that.”
MyTravel’s directors declined to speak to TTG.

[Simon Lumley]

Thomas Cook Airlines are to enter the crowded UK-Canada market next summer and offer new charter services from London-Gatwick, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh to Toronto.

A one-class cabin will be used with greater seat pitch than the economy sections on scheduled airlines.

2x Boeing 757s with 187 leahter seats will be used for the services.

But there are concerns that there is too much overcapacity in the UK-Canada market and therefore could be a lot of consolidation next summer.

Source: Travel Trade Gazette - 10th November 2003.


:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Simon Lumley]

In a starkling report in the Travel Trade Gazette (10th November), My Travel has said that if cannot agree another mult-million pound loan soon it will not be able to survive after November 2004 because they just have not generated sufficient cash from Summer 2003 bookings. The "Baghdad bounce" never materialised.

ATOL are strongly considering stripping them of their bond because the company is so debt-ridden.

My Travel are trying to sell of major parts of their business to raise any cash. There are rumours that Manos and Panorma may be sold.

Rival tour operators, TUI UK, Thomas Cook and First Choice are annoyed that they have been allowed to carry on trading. They believe that a turnaround is now unlikely, and sadly so do many critics.

MyTravel should be changed to MyDebt?...MyProblems?

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

There's plenty of reading in those Travel Trade Gazette's isn't there Simon????

[KAT TOO]

Wll Simon
You are a busy(or not?) boy aren't you, still it look like i'll never need to buu a newspaper or watch the news ever again!! if you keep making 6 posts per morning that is.

cheers:cool:

[FormerFlyer]

Just what is a "starkling report" & who are ATOL?

cheers ;)

FF

[FormerFlyer]

Thank you for posting pretty much verbatim (with the exception of your own unique spelling) the text from TTG.

Do you have any opinion on TCX going into the Canada market? I personally think that TTG were wrong in their statement that the market is already crowded. I think that the UK-Canada market could do with more competition.

cheers ;)

FF

[carlos vandango]

as someone accurately posted the TTG article on the other mytravel thread I see no reason for this one.:hmm:

[Civil Servant]

The only thing no one seems to have considered here is MYTravel's notorious disregard for the punters. People I have heard saying things like "I'll never fly with them again and will certainly tell all my friends". This usually followed such things as:

"I paid extra money to fly from Humberside and now I find myself being bussed to Manchester and then bussed back from Manchester. No refund of my extra and no apology".

"I was bussed to Gatwick to go and then bussed from Birmingham when I got back"

Etc Etc Etc

Whilst undeniably some of the reasons are the downturn as quoted previously, perhaps a little closer examination of their own policies would bear looking into?

Hope they are gonna be alright otherwise a lot of good people will be out of work.

[kinsman]

Civil servant

And of course this sort of thing only happens at MYT! I can relate stories about all of the other operators from friends and my own experience that would sound exactly like yours and worse! And most end up going on holiday with the same operators again! I have been on holiday with MYT a dozen or so times without a problem or delay! Of all the trips I have done for the company over the last eleven years only a very few have resulted in long delays or problems. Like all operators MYT upset passengers like yourself from time to time it is not good but it happens.

Of course the TTG would not be influenced by inputs from MYT's competitors!? That would be unthinkable; after all MYT’s competitors would have no vested interest in twisting the knife or exaggerating a few truths perhaps?

Things are not good but MYT can still generate cash, all be it by selling assets! If the banks pull the plug now they would find it more difficult to get a good price for the good bits of the group. Most of the group’s tour operator’s do well, the problem is the PLC. MYT probably have another year to show signs of recovery, so don’t count them out just yet. I doubt the CAA will pull the bond if the asset sales go through they would have no reason to just yet.

[Big Tudor]

kinsman,

Wasn't TTG once published by a certain Canadian publishing company that used to have a vested interest in the UK tour market?? Not that I'm questioning the integrity of the report in the TTG. Who me? Never guv, honesty's my middle name. Could have been a journalist. :E

[kinsman]

Now I think about it your right! Did they not also get into a spot of trouble some years ago over a report about MYT that proved to be untrue! Not of course that would in anyway influence their reporting.

[newswatcher]

I think Kinsman has been dreaming of those "silver linings"!

On 3 November, MyTravel Group called an EGM, because it was in breach of section 142 of the Companies' Act 1985, which requires that the net value of the company's assets (net of liabilities) should exceed 50% of it's "called up" capital. This is no longer the case, and the EGM will be used as a vehicle to explain how the company plan to resolve this.

It does not make for comfortable reading that The Continuing MyTravel Group does not currently have sufficient working capital These are not the words of TTG, Daily Mail, or any other paper.

If anyone can keep awake long enough, then they would do well to read completely the two messages from MyTravel about this EGM, and then decide for themselves whether MyTravel will last for another 12 months. notice of EGM (http://www.hemscott.com/scripts/AFXnewstory.dll/text?EPIC=MT.&SerialNumber=895&NewsType=CDP&Indate=03/11/2003&CUST=1) supplemental circular (http://www.hemscott.com/scripts/AFXnewstory.dll/text?EPIC=MT.&SerialNumber=585&NewsType=CDP&Indate=06/11/2003&CUST=1)

As a comparison, First Choice announced that it believed that it would make full year profit targets this year, despite the effects of the GWII. At the end of October it said the 2003 summer season had been one of its best ever, and described demand for winter bookings so far as "strong."BBC report(24/10/03) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3210073.stm)

[Freeway]

Have been in the industry long enough to have seen all of this before. A familiar pattern in the majority of cases.
Having read the 2 notices posted above, I note the remuneration of the board and non-executive directors.
Forgive me for being synical, but over half a million a year for the CEO, plus share options and product familiarisation allowance...
doesn't he do a great job.. worth every penny!!
:yuk:

[DEH]

Thomas Cook Airlines are not "entering" the Canadian market next summer as have been operating to Vancouver and Calgary from gatwick and Manchester for Canadian Affair since spring 2002.

The "new" routes are the ones that My Travel have operated this year.

Hope its not another nail in their coffin.





Long live the dog!::D

[kala87]

According to BAA figures today, traffic at their UK airports is up 4%year on year for last month. However, charter traffic was down 7%.

This probably reflects the trend towards do-it-yourself trips on budget airlines, instead of taking package holidays.

So, MYT's core package holiday business has to contend with a falling market, let alone generate enough cash flow to ensure the company's survival.

By contrast, First Choice are meeting this year's profit targets and trading very nicely because they moved up-market and have a broad range of profitable niche travel businesses.

My guess is that if MYT survive at all (and I wouldn't bet on it) it will be a much smaller business. Why did they change their name from Airtours? My Travel must be one of the daftest airline names ever invented.

[kinsman]

Newscatcher

Thanks for the information but believe it or not this is not news!

I suspect part of MYT's problems this year stem from the press coverage of earlier this year!

As for the name Mytravel I could not agree more what a daft name! But then again the name change probably has been an advantage in recent months.

If I am trying to look on the bright side while some want to poor petrol on the fire it is because 20000+ folks stand to loose their jobs. They are well aware of the problems and don't need you or anyone else to make them feel even worse.

[The_Banking_Scot]

Hi,

I got a flyer advert through the post this evening from Canadian Affair.

They were advertising the Thomas Cook flights from Glasgow to Canada ( 4*weekly I think)

According to the flyer the seats will be leather and with 35 inches of pitch.

Regards

TBS

[carlos vandango]

such a large operation going down the pan is not good for anybody..it will affect the whole UK industry. At the very least it will weaken the bargaining power of unions with so many pilots looking for jobs. I just can't see why some people are hell bent on gloating about this.
Good luck to all at mytravel. :ok:

[Hulk Hogan]

I personally think they will survive, although eventually they will just be a uk company. MyTravel has a lot of things it can sell off to raise capital they just need to make it through the winter and have a decent summer.

Good luck!

[PUP]

It may well be very interesting to know why these flts have changed (if indeed they have) from MYT to TCX. I find it difficult to believe that anything should be concluded about the future of MYT from this information.
Perhaps it is relevant that Canadian Affairs paid MYT to operate full ac on the Canada routes but Canadian Affairs only sold about two-thirds of the available seats (£400 return) on the flts this summer and probably lost money as a result. Of course flying partly empty planes made the contract more lucrative for MYT. For 2004 maybe Canadian Affairs realise that they need fewer seats with the same no of flts per week?

[codpiece face]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, no one really knows what is going to happen, there are so many people around that consider themselves experts and have made these predictions to no avail before, lets just hope it turns out ok and remember there but the grace of god.

[Kestrel]

MYTRAVEL will be ok.

We like some have said are higher profile than others and get a kicking when we are down.

All we have done is been totally open since last year about everthing..do not let MYT distract you from the other charter outfits out there "ARE THEY ALL DOING OK"?

For those of you,who are jumping on the band wagon and slating us right now,i just hope the same thing never happens to you.

BEST WISHES EVERYONE.

[ChrisDobison]

Hear Hear!

Chris D
(Former MYT employee)

[Jack The Lad]

Kestrel, I couldn't agree more. Nobody wants anyone in this industry to fail. When that happens you are talking real lives and real families that suffer. Not just pilots, but all the way from the top to the bottom of the organisation. Even the poorest of people that clean the waste bins get affected.

Also, there is the secondary effect that will undoubtably effect every other pilot out there, especially those that might gloat at another airlines misfortune. You might think yourself lucky, but have you ever thought about the fact that there is a seriously more experienced pilot in the marketplace that will undoubtably get that job opportunity before you will?

And, if MYT went to the wall, can you be SURE your airline isn't the next most vunerable?

Small industry this is. Best thing that you pilots can do is zip ya lips and hope to hell all survive.

Next best thing is that you hope and pray your airline has the best financial management possible. Thats what MYT needs right now, to demonstrate to those that have the ability to pull the plug that they have a sound grip on matters. Beancounters they may be, but trust your existance on the fact that they are and can do a good job to secure your job!

Time to reflect I reckon and get united?

[kinsman]

Well said guys, let us hope 2004 brings better fortunes for the entire industry.

[newswatcher]

Kinsmain, I posted these extracts particularly because it was the nearest I could get to MyTravel Group explaining the "problem" and their resolution. That is, unsullied by those evil journalists!

One of their big problems during the year has been the quality of MyTravel's "price sensitive" information. They seem to release bad news at the last possible moment, thus incurring the wrath of the "experts". If they bit the bullet, and were a bit more "honest", then I am sure that some of the flak would cease.

I hope everything goes well on the 17th! :ok:

[koi]

If we just take a big step back and look at what that lot have been up to over the last ten years, the quality and integrity of the board and the Airline management and the appalling way that they have treated staff and individuals at times, it would be churlish to bellow ...' what goes round comes around'. Some can scarse conceal their schadenfreude. It has always been an appalling industry for attracting the wrong sort of individuals at the top. That there is life outside the charter industry is beyond doubt and folk should not be worried in trying it out.
Good luck to you all at MYT.
koi...

[Stand 22]

It may well be very interesting to know why these flts have changed (if indeed they have) from MYT to TCX

They haven't. MYT will still fly for Canadian affairs from MAN next year.

TCX will be operating this GLA route at a substantial loss. A sign of how desperate TCX are to find work for their aircraft.

Regards,

[spy]

Out of interest!

"Lufthansa expects Thomas Cook AG to report an FY net loss of up to €300m, admitting that the tour operator’s performance in the last quarter will not improve its Q3 numbers despite a lift in booking levels.

The airline, which owns 50% of Europe’s second largest tour operator, gave the warning in today’s Q3s, updating Thomas Cook’s Nov02-July03 figures issued in September.

Lufthansa, which devoted a single page in its 24-page release to Thomas Cook AG, says that for the first nine months of its year the tour operator recorded an EBIT loss of €296m, adding that ‘although the level of bookings has picked up over the past months the deficit recorded up to July cannot be neutralised before the end of the business year. We expect for the full business year a segment result (pro rata earnings after taxes and goodwill) at the present level’.

Late last week, Thomas Cook AG’s chief exec Stefan Pichler and CFO Norbert Kickum resigned. The previous day Thomas Cook’s other 50% owner, retailer Karstadt Quelle, issued a profits warning blaming losses at the tour operator for its failure to hit FY targets.

Coverage in the German nationals over the weekend suggested that Thomas Cook will have to make huge writedowns relating to not only its fleet of Condor aircraft but also its purchase of Thomas Cook UK. An un-named analyst told leading financial broadsheet Handlesblatt that the writedowns could run to ‘several hundred million euros’ while top-selling tabloid Das Bild valued the writedowns at €1bn.

Thomas Cook UK’s performance is not separated out from the AG’s in Lufthansa’s statement. Earlier this month UK and Ireland chief executive Manny Fontenla-Novoa said at the ABTA Convention that Thomas Cook UK would report its best ever financial performance.

Fontenla-Novoa was a last-minute replacement for former CEO Stefan Pichler at this year’s Captains of Industry lunch at World Travel Market.

Travel Weekly’s ‘WTM Daily’ reported that he admitted that Thomas Cook is paying ‘three or four times the current market rate’ on its aircraft leases.

Shorter leases are favoured by tour ops as it allows them to manage capacity more easily than if the planes are owned or on long-term leases. However, Lufthansa’s Q3s point out that Pichler and Kickum spent €54m on two Airbus A320s which replaced two leased aircraft.

German trade title FVW, reporting on Pichler’s resignation, said that Thomas Cook Airlines is oversized for the German market and that it still hasn’t found buyers for 13 B757s.

FVW also suggests that the introduction of an upmarket Thomas Cook tour operating brand in Germany brand led to the loss of 300,000 clients. Fontenla-Novoa, on the other hand, has said that the introduction of Thomas Cook as the umbrella brand had been well received in the UK and has helped the bottom line.

Thomas Cook AG’s results for the year to end-Oct03 will be issued at the start of March04. "

[GW76]

TCX will be operating this GLA route at a substantial loss
mmmm....whats the factual basis for this ? I would find it hard to predict passenger numbers so far in advance.
Previous MYT flights ran almost full, no reason why this should not continue with TCX- 757 or A330

[Kestrel]

I REST MY CASE.

[spy]

Some months ago I saw several complaining that the British press were picking on MYT as a UK operator and ignoring much bigger problems in other operators. Many of you said that this was not true, well it appears you were sadly wrong.

Frankly this article regarding TC would indicate a worse situation than that faced by MYT! I hope both operators survive but lets stop giving MYT a hard time they have had way more than their fair share of attention. Funny I did not find this report in the TTG or the Financial Mail!

Having just seen the Horizon program on climate change, we may all have much bigger problems ahead. I am off to research a move higher, warmer ground at the other end of the failing Gulf Stream!:{

[Jack The Lad]

Kestrel

I don't read that as good news at all

Sorry, wish it was otherwise.

[kinsman]

I don't think Kestrel thinks this is good news! It just makes a point that MYT are not alone! Good luck to all at TC we know how you feel!

[unwiseowl]

I presume that ownership by a big wealthy company like LH gives Thomas Cook an advantage that MT does not have? Another thoght: If the banks were inclined to pull the plug on MT, the time to do it would have been immediatly after the shareholder circular was issued on the 6th.

[kinsman]

Who knows? Certainly no one on this forum! However LH don't seem to be that well off these days but all things are relative.

[dada]

Looks like this lot pretty skint as well. Can we have at least 4 pages dedicated to the potential collapse of this company and give mytravel a rest.

[brakedwell]

If you are employed by TC and the answer to any of the following questions is yes, start worrying.
a. Has the Chairman been accused of snorting Coke?
b. Has he also been accused of consorting with Ladies Of Ihe Night?
c. Is BA getting worried about the competition from your airline?
d. Recruiting aggressively when everybody else is cutting back?
e. Ordered another type of aircraft with questionable economics, adding extra costs for maintainace and crewing?
f. Expanded the headquarters building to accomodate even more non-essential staff?
g. Waiting for a cash injection from a questionable offshore source in order to keep afloat?
If all the answers are negative, think positive and try to ignore the rumour mill.

[FD Standby]

Copied from the MyTravel Forum:

"Lufthansa expects Thomas Cook AG to report an FY net loss of up to €300m, admitting that the tour operator’s performance in the last quarter will not improve its Q3 numbers despite a lift in booking levels.

The airline, which owns 50% of Europe’s second largest tour operator, gave the warning in today’s Q3s, updating Thomas Cook’s Nov02-July03 figures issued in September.

Lufthansa, which devoted a single page in its 24-page release to Thomas Cook AG, says that for the first nine months of its year the tour operator recorded an EBIT loss of €296m, adding that ‘although the level of bookings has picked up over the past months the deficit recorded up to July cannot be neutralised before the end of the business year. We expect for the full business year a segment result (pro rata earnings after taxes and goodwill) at the present level’.

Late last week, Thomas Cook AG’s chief exec Stefan Pichler and CFO Norbert Kickum resigned. The previous day Thomas Cook’s other 50% owner, retailer Karstadt Quelle, issued a profits warning blaming losses at the tour operator for its failure to hit FY targets.

Coverage in the German nationals over the weekend suggested that Thomas Cook will have to make huge writedowns relating to not only its fleet of Condor aircraft but also its purchase of Thomas Cook UK. An un-named analyst told leading financial broadsheet Handlesblatt that the writedowns could run to ‘several hundred million euros’ while top-selling tabloid Das Bild valued the writedowns at €1bn.

Thomas Cook UK’s performance is not separated out from the AG’s in Lufthansa’s statement. Earlier this month UK and Ireland chief executive Manny Fontenla-Novoa said at the ABTA Convention that Thomas Cook UK would report its best ever financial performance.

Fontenla-Novoa was a last-minute replacement for former CEO Stefan Pichler at this year’s Captains of Industry lunch at World Travel Market.

Travel Weekly’s ‘WTM Daily’ reported that he admitted that Thomas Cook is paying ‘three or four times the current market rate’ on its aircraft leases.

Shorter leases are favoured by tour ops as it allows them to manage capacity more easily than if the planes are owned or on long-term leases. However, Lufthansa’s Q3s point out that Pichler and Kickum spent €54m on two Airbus A320s which replaced two leased aircraft.

German trade title FVW, reporting on Pichler’s resignation, said that Thomas Cook Airlines is oversized for the German market and that it still hasn’t found buyers for 13 B757s.

FVW also suggests that the introduction of an upmarket Thomas Cook tour operating brand in Germany brand led to the loss of 300,000 clients. Fontenla-Novoa, on the other hand, has said that the introduction of Thomas Cook as the umbrella brand had been well received in the UK and has helped the bottom line.

Thomas Cook AG’s results for the year to end-Oct03 will be issued at the start of March04. "


Does the Daily Mail know about this?????

[LGS6753]

In 2004, the following will happen:

EZY will grow its fleet of 319s and open new UK routes
FR will grow its fleet of 738s and open new UK routes
Jet2 will continue to grow and will be operating more a/c than in 2003
Flybe will be operating more leisure routes than in 2003
Britannia Express will be muscling in on the seat-only market
Now will start flying
BMI baby will continue its leisure-orientated growth
Monarch will grow its scheduled operations

Also
Interest rates will go up again

Result - fewer people on package holidays. Ergo the airlines dependent on the traditional package (BY, TCX, AMM, MYT etc) will struggle to attract passengers.

If the Tour Operator fails, the airline goes too. Which Tour Operator is weakest?

I feel for those who will be affected, but MYT seems to have run its course, unless some of the above doesn't happen, or unless it is rescued by brilliant management.

[A4]

But with the above predicted significant expansion of the seat only carriers, are they not going to also struggle to fill seats? FR and EZY have both had trouble giving away seats let alone getting people to pay for them. With the rulings from Brussels viz pax compensation, the lo-cos are going to be under even tighter margins with increasing competition from their own business model.

I do agree that the Tour operating market is mature, but if the tour ops can adjust their business models to match the market demand, then they offer a positive advantage over the lo-cos as a one-stop-shop for your holiday, for which there will always be some demand.

It's all a case of balance.

A4 ;)

[Old King Coal]

brakedwell - mostly for the enlightenment of the young'uns on here, your post above was a passing reference to the late great 'International Leisure Group' and Harry Goodman, right ?

Nb. ILG was one of the largest travel companies in the decade from the 1980 onwards. It was also the parent company of that fabulous airline, Air Europe.
The whole ILG group came crashing down in early March 1991, much due to the 1991 Gulf war effecting customer confidence in holiday and business travel ( to say nothing of a suposed BA dirty tricks capaign ).

[Stand 22]

The annoying thing about TCX is that it probably will not even make the papers in the UK as they are a German company. You can bet your bottom doller that MYT will be in all of them when the results are announced as lets face it, it ain't going to be pretty!

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Stand 22,

The recent woes at TCX have indeed been highlighted in the national press in the last week. The UK arm is expected to make £30m this year while the German side of the operation is the problem area, hence the apparent dismissal this week of the CEO and his right hand man.

I hope MYT do survive as it does no-one any favours if they fold. Wanabees will find their chances diminished, the MYT staff will have a distressing search for new jobs and the terms and conditions for all pilots will undoubtedly be further diminished as managements can point to a surplus of trained pilots looking for work.

That said, the desperate cost-cutting employed at TCX UK post Sep 11 and reduction of capacity i'm afraid to say was not mirrored at MYT. Therein lies the current predicament they find themselves in.

[Lou Scannon]

If it's desperate measures that we are looking for, then I don't see any from MYT or TC.

They are not the firms advertising a million seats for didly squat in the hope of filling their new machines!

[Stand 22]

The recent woes at TCX have indeed been highlighted in the national press in the last week

That maybe, but not to the same extent that MYTs troubles have been scrutinised.

[kinsman]

Lets face it there is not an airline Europe that is not in or about to be in a mess. To think otherwise is burying ones head in the sand.

£30 million profit in the UK for TC is great but put it in context, many of MYT's tour operators make a lot of money but if the group is throwing money out the window then all the company's in the group are put under threat no matter how well they are doing in isolation.

This is a very bad time for the industry, be it seat only or package, don't forget MYT have been in the seat only market for a while now, it is not the cure all it appears. The seat only market is getting as saturated as the package holiday market.

:(

[kinsman]

Of course the Mail know about it but they like bashing UK operators not German! Hope all goes well at TC and MYT.

[middlepath]

seems TUI is doing quite OK, atleast the UK side.

[kinsman]

Sadly not the German side!

[middlepath]

in general german speaking countries including switzerland are very unflexible and inefficient in aviation business. They are suitable in manufacturing business. Flexibility is key to aviation.

[Paterbrat]

Completely agree Kinsman. The intense competition in the air travel market which has given the travelling public fares that are within reach of most people is also subject to the troubles which have been spreading since 9/11. There is a worldwide malaise which has made people uneasy, and it has resulted in an economic downturn from which we appear to only just, very cautiously recovering from. The on-going world wide unrest however coupled with the growth of the low cost and increase in the seats available for a projected increase in bums which has failed to materialise is creating intense competition in a saturated market, Market forces will result in ' corrections' these will contain pain and inevitable hardships for some, in the meantime every little bit counts, and each company and it's personel will if they are sensible will be doing the best trying to simply survive and try to ensure that it will not be them that go under.

[jmccrew]

"At a substantial loss " what a load of poo given that TCX is a charter airline any loss ( thats assuming that there is any ) would be Canadian affairs as TCX would be paid if the flight is full or not .

[Lou Scannon]

Speaking as someone who has become on first name terms with most liquidators...

The angel of death is moving around us once more Brothers and Sisters. Let us pray that she doesn't stop at our crewroom door for verily,no soul is safe from her tallons.

:sad:

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Stand 22, I'm afraid the media exposure (fairly or unfairly) goes with being a publicly quoted company on the stock exchange.
Exposed dubious accounting practices, a multitude of profit warnings, re-financing deadlines and the turnover of boardroom staff are likely to attract the interest of media vultures.

Lou Scannon, I disagree that TCX has not taken desperate measures. Redundancies, fleet reductions, pay cuts & freezes and an assortment of other cost-cutting measures were applied post Sep 11th. The German operation is now suffering the same pain the UK arm had to endure (13 757s taken out of service).

MYT took a gamble by not reducing capacity 2 years ago like the other charter operators and this unfortunately is why they are paying for it now.

[beamer]

Disturbing to note is talk around the bazaars surrounding the query as to how the other players - BY, MON,AMM, TCX - will absorb MYT business when the axe falls - probably just idle gossip but this is a rumour forum !

[DBate]

You can't really be serious about your statement. Take a look at LH, seems to be one of the most efficient airlines in the whole industry. And - if I'm not mistaken - they are german.

So long,
DBate

[EPRman]

beamer,

The DFO at our lot was outlining the contigency plans for the demise of MYT at the annual base visits in January this year and they're thankfully still here.

[spy]

Beamer

The vultures have been making plans ever since this mess started, it is no rumour! You can't blame them they are all fighting for survival.

My guess is the German market is going to loose a big player and that will impact on the UK. Even if this does happen or if MYT fails it will not mean automatic salvation for the remaining operators as the market is still vulnerable to further pressures on the economy, increasing interest rates and fear of flying due security issues. The German owned UK operators are at the mercy of their parent company’s success and sadly no matter how well they do they will not be protected from a major collapse in Germany. Looking at the projected write downs at TC AG you could see LH pull out of this market and throw TC to the wolves that would leave TC UK very vulnerable indeed.

Even BA is still under threat; I doubt they would survive another 9/11. As it is they will need further large restructuring to survive.

[beamer]

EPRman/Spy

Thanks for replies - I know that at 'board level' these plans have been explored for a long time - I only mention the subject because there seems to be a gathering of pace on the flightline - engineers, handling agents etc which I had not heard until now.
I have a number of friends at MYT who I do not wish to see out of work but looking at prices and load factors throughout the industry I cannot help but see the term 'over-capacity' in my mind.

[dada]

just because you're the favourite to win(or fall) doesn't mean
you can't be upstaged by an outsider. life is full of surprises
especially if you're at the mercy of a german parent company.

[spy]

I have not seen any evidence myself Beamer and certainly there is no change or information being passed to the handling agents at Gatwick to whom I have spoken or the engineers. I would be surprised if companies were not making plans, they did the same last year, it makes good sense to be prepared but only time will tell. My view is MYT will limp on; my concern is for TC as the German situation according to a friend in the city is going to be very bad in the New Year. MYT’s books will look very good by comparison!

If MYT can hold on until then the landscape may change dramatically and depending on their position then, all may be well for the summer. This all assumes the economy stays stable and we have no major terrorist activity between now and then and bookings hold firm with good margins.

I think you will see some very big changes at MYT and if they are made I can see the company returning from the brink, if not it is just a question of time.
:(

[spy]

Apparently I can't post a short answer so I will give a longer one!

I agree the situation in the German market is going to come home to roost and have some dramatic effects on the UK. I think we will be looking at a very different situation in the New Year as the German operators will be forced to make massive changes to survive. This will without doubt inpact on UK German owned operators regardless of how well they may be doing.

Brace, Brace! Another bad year for the industry ahead!:{

[kinsman]

Without wanting to upset the moderators may I ask why the TC thread has been moved but not the Mytravel thread?

[dada]

because there's a hate capmaign against them?

[tailscrape]

The difference with Cook's and MYT is this:

Thomas Cook have announced losses group wide, but can see an improving situation. The UK is profitable for them. Germany is not, but is recovering allegedly.

MYT are strapped with debt, and cannot wriggle free without selling the best parts of their businesses, which leaves all the under performing ones in the portfolio. Hardly a good starting point for recovery....

MYT are having to fire sale these assets to survive this winter, by their own admission.

Thomas Cook has two large parent shareholders in LUFTHANSA and KARSTADT QUELLE, who have publicly said this week that they are sticking with the plan and will support Thomas Cook at this time.

Spot the difference anyone?

[dada]

yes, that's as maybe, but first i was afraid i was petrified, kept thinking i could never live without you by my travel side.....

[koi]

Nature must take its course. It always did ....so what exactly is new here. I believe it is a well understood fact of business life in the western world that a company has a life span of 10 to 12 years before a cycle of renewal. Is this what we are seeing here perhaps. koi

[SLT]

Fire sale????? Don't think so tailscrape!! :rolleyes: If we weren't getting a fair price for the businesses and we were selling all the businesses in desperation, then maybe you could call it that, but when MYT has refused a number of bidders for the likes of Cresta because they weren't bidding enough I don't think you can call it a fire sale.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the German parents won't offload TC UK to protect their German interests!! They won't hesitate for a minute. I know you regard TC as "home" - your own words - but don't say things you know to be untrue, just to score points.

[dada]

here here slt. simply disposal of businesses acquired over the years that are now considered non-core.

[SLT]

Agreed dada!!. The banks have lent us (quite literally!) heavy support, and they're not about to withdraw it now! I have a feeling that as spy says, the picture is going to change a fair bit in the coming months.

Fingers crossed!!!

[kinsman]

Tailscrape

I did not realise you were a moderator!

Beware, I have heard the same story from other management teams just before the light went out! Hope it is an improving situation for all concerned but the mess in Germany has been on it's way for a while and now I am afraid it is just starting to arrive!

As we are being forced to sell off non core businesses so will the Germans, TC and TC Ag may not be core to LH.

[tailscrape]

SLT,dada,kinsman

Your enthusiasm for all things "thunderbirds" is laudable. And I am not a moderator.

The reported facts are these:

MYT is having, byt it's chief exec's admission, to sell businesses to survive THIS WINTER. It faces a cash crunch.

MYT has had it's shareholder value diminished by it's wasteful management over the last 5 years.

MYT is now 20 odd % owned directly by the banks.

It's shares have slid to around 15p .

No one has bid for MYT because it is virtually bankrupt. No competitor will buy capacity from you in a sale at fancy prices, because the chances are that they may get it for nothing before next spring.

MYT has junk status amongst the credit community, meaning that if people were to lend you money you would pay more for it. And that you cannot afford.


Now, let's contrast that to the plight of Thomas Cook:

TCAG are making horrendous losses.

TCUK made a record profit.

The group has two main shareholders. Lufthansa and Karstadt Quelle. Both have reaffirmed their commitment to the group strategy.

No assets are being sold. Yet.

The company answers to two shareholders, not 200,000 like MYT do.

If TCUK were sold, then so be it. However they are a going profitable concern. So, unlike MYT the situation is different.

Personally, I wish we could all work in a stable environment. All pilot's should start on £100000 p.a. and have company ferraris. We don't though, and it is survival of the fittest.

Thomas Cook may not be in the best of health, but in the industry eyes, MYT have already been given a lethal dose of sodium pentathol and are not long for this world.

Bad news it is, but that is the way of it. Please feel free to come back and abuse me. It always happens when I tell the truth.:(

[kinsman]

Tailscrape it is the truth as you see it!

No one is in a position to buy MYT in Europe!

I suggest you lookup the definition of bankrupt as MYT are not in that position as we speak.

You are correct TC have only two shareholders and that makes you feel safer!

I doubt anyone will want to buy a UK tour operator/airline be it MYT or TC.

The scale of the problems in Germany are huge and dwarf the finacial problems at MYT.

All that said no one questions the deep problems at MYT but there is still life and therefore hope. You and others were forcasting the demise of MYT this time last year and it is still here.

[tailscrape]

kinsman

You could buy MYT for not a lot at the minute. No one wants to, not no one can.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Kinsman,

No-one here wants MYT to fold but to say that TCX are in a more precarious position is just not true. I rather think that it is wishful thinking to deflect the media interest in MYT.

TCX UK will be recruiting pilots next year and I suspect that MYT type rated guys will be applying. I rather doubt that TCX UK pilots will be applying to MYT.

Time will tell but my own gut feeling is that MYT, if it is to survive, will be downsized drastically as more pieces of the group are sold off to reduce debt.

As for buying MYT as a whole entity, I don't think in its current predicament, that there would be any takers, as large amounts of debt would be unattractive to any purchaser.

[spy]

Tailscrape

You are of course correct the situation at MYT is not good. But to put the TC situation in context many of the MYT companies are making money just like TC UK but that will not protect them if the group fails nor will it protect TC UK.

The reason TC UK is in a position to turn in any kind of profit this year is due to the intervention of the Germans and this can work both ways! Much of the write down in Germany is due to the rescue of TC UK.

I don’t think having only two share holders is an advantage frankly as that makes it easier to dispose of assets. Airlines are rarely seen as assets to tour companies these days I am sad to say!

Taking on pilots is not an indicator of a healthy company AE were doing it right to the end. It also means you may have an unhappy work force if you need more pilots and you are not increasing capacity!

[diplomat]

Spy

"Much of the write down in Germany is due to the rescue of TC UK."

Incorrect


Kinsman

"The scale of the problems in Germany are huge and dwarf the finacial problems at MYT."

Totally incorrect

[A4]

Diplomat,

You assert that previous posts are incorrect. Please embelish us with the facts as to why.

A4

[Lou Scannon]

MYT does have one asset, the slots and lots of them.
This may well help to find a buyer of sorts for the airline.

[FLEX42]

Kinsman et al, treat TAILSCRAPE's postings with the disdain they deserve. A quick trawl of his many postings will show what a twisted and bitter sad individual he is. He USED to work for TC once upon a time and was forced to go elswhere (DHL) although he has tried many other companies to no avail, I wonder why ?

Yes it is a rumour network, and many thrive upon it. I hope you all pull through at MYT. Although we all chat and banter on here, isn't it a shame that fellow professionals can't be a little more supportive in difficult times instead of being full of destructive comments. Let's try to get at the truth, but without the vitriol please. Best of luck from spotty, and hope to see some of you on the Hajj.

[kinsman]

Flex42 good point well made! Interesting view of tailscrape and explains a lot.

Lou nice thought but as I stated earlier no one is in a position to buy us at the moment. You could get us cheap true but the debt would be a problem!

I will fight MYT's corner here but we must face the fact that things could be a lot better! MYT may yet pull out of this mess, tomorrow will be interesting!

I am not sure if the lack of press coverage at the moment is good or bad! Strange having spent so much time on these pages complaining about the press coverage!;)

[Prince Of Darkness]

To the TC Experts:

Can you tell us TC's current level of debt, that is, what they owe to banks, finance houses, etc?

I read somewhere that it was in the order of €2-3billion, which makes MYT's woes look somewhat paltry.

Discuss.

[spy]

Those figures sound about right but they are of course in a different position to MYT. Their troubles are just starting to surface and they appear at least to have a sound team leading in Germany, all be it two have just done a runner! TC's problems are linked to a poor German economy over which they have no control. MYT was down to poor leadership!

I have no idea where it will end but I am sure LH cant afford to support these loses for long, they are still recovering like all the other major carriers from 9/11, SARS etc.

[MissChief]

Check out Der Spiegel this morning, and you'll read that TC is to be broken up by it's 2 share-holders, with TC's French and UK businesses on the block to finance the "re-structure". This makes some of the previous contributors look rather daft.

The reality is that most of us "drivers" are active at conjecture but useless at anticipating accurately the moves made at board level. (I guess if we were so good at business, we would not be working on the flight-deck). I hope it all works out o.k for pilots of both TC and MYT, not forgetting all the other fine employees of these 2 companies.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

MissChief,

I wonder if you will deem your own post of Nov 8th "daft" then in the coming weeks and months ?

The new hands at the helm have been in position for less than a week and are only temporary. I rather doubt such a radical decision has already been taken and suspect that is conjecture and rumour by German media enjoying a feeding frenzy.

Besides, putting TCX UK "on the block" as you put it is hardly good business sense as it is profitable. May I suggest that a more sensible course of action would be to carve up the loss- making German arm.

As you correctly assert, people here are guessing the outcomes at MYT and TCX in the same way as the media be it English or German !

[tailscrape]

flex42,

Oh what a big man you are. Nice to see a balanced individual....

My comments are based on what I have read in the press, and from certain info I have available.

As for identifying people, well you are just sad for slating me personally. And as for who I work for, well is that your business?

If you do not like other's opinions, then log off. Permanently.

[dada]

well said, get out of here. talk like this is killing off the thread - keep to the subject or the thread will soon be dead.

[Prince Of Darkness]

With respect, spy, debt is debt; it has to be repaid at sometime.

The two that "did a runner" from the TC Group board HAD TO, before they were removed, so, possibly their management skills and "leadership" left a little to be desired.

And to LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK: The UK arm of TC is only in profit now because of the large write-off's that have been absorbed elswhere in the TC Group. Unfortunately for TC, there is no money left in the kitty to do the same for the German operation. And, as "Cash Flow is King", methinks that TC will sell the parts that they can get the best price for.

The Inclusive Tour business Europe-wide is in the trough-part of the 3-to-5 year cycle that affects our industry. One just has to look around at most operators woes.
The survivors will be those who have taken their heads out of the sand, not those that still have their heads buried in the sand, and that applies to the workforce as much as the management.
Those terms and conditions that we, as employees have gained, will rapidly be erroded to pay for all-round mis-management, corruption and general economic malaise.

Oh, dear; I seem to have used the "C" word!

Good luck to all of us, I wish no ill of anyone. Just security and good health for us all.
Sadly, all the uncertainty in my company is now affecting the health of my family.

PS. One other question. How many TC/Condor B757's are parked-up, now?

[spy]

Lima

I suspect if there is a move to dispose of TC UK/France it was an option looked at a few months ago when this situation was looming, it will not be a snap decision. I agree that debt is debt my point was thay MYT can change leadership and structure to try and improve their situation, TC Ag are still victim to a weak German economy and can do little to effect that.

I think it is time this thread moved to a different title myself. I suspect TC UK will continue in one form or another but as with MYT only time will tell. Good luck.

Tailscape

Keep your hair on no one knows who you are except flex42! Sounds like he hit a nerve though! If personel comment offends you then I would moderate your posts they often seem shall we say insensitive!

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Prince of Darkness,

I believe the number is 13 757's as previously stated on this thread.

TCX UK has been turned round due to enforced cost savings of £140m that were implememented in the main by a small egyptian fella who, whilst being universally unpopular, got the job done. I'm not sure where these enormous writedowns you refer to come from.

Spy,

That may well be the case. Who knows ? All I do know is that the UK operation has operated profitably whilst MYTs has not this year. Cost cutting and capacity reduction appears to have worked at TCX UK and has worked at other tour operators. Lets hope that MYT management can sort out their long term financing and return to a profitable business model in the UK.

[PPRuNe Pop]

A quick point.

I have had a complaint that an attempt is being made to identify one of the posters on this thread. This is a no no.

We do not take kindly to anyone naming names on PPRuNe. So be aware that it usually results in one or more persons being removed from the thread - sometimes even removed from PPRuNe. :ugh:

This thread is VERY important to a lot of people with a lot more to be said, especially is if a sudden announcement is made. Hopefully none. So please stay on topic and have regard to those who work for MYT and who must being feeling very grotty at the moment. Best wishes to them all.

PPP

[spy]

Pprune pop

This thread appears to be important only to those who do not work for MYT. Your comment regarding sudden announcements is ill judged an insensitive in the extreme, I suggest you rethink it. I think you will find most MYT employees would gladly see this thread closed it really is not important to them more irritating actually! MYT employees will hear soon enough if there is any news though their own web site.

[PPRuNe Pop]

spy

This thread appears to be important only to those who do not work for MYT.

That is clearly not right. There are plenty of people making contributions who work for MYT. The inevitable consequence of a thread such as this is comment from stirrers. We watch then for trouble makers.

The sudden announcement is NOT MY comment it refers to those made earlier about that possibility for today. I suggest you read.

If enough people PM me to close the thread I will, but not for one person's opinion. It seems to me that you have deliberately mis-interpreted my comments anyway.

Naming names is not acceptable and for that reason I have removed them from your post.

PPP

[spy]

Pprune pop

You have removed nothing from my post that would identify anyone as I have not attempted to name anyone. I await your apology!

What anouncement were you expecting today? It was an EAGM the result of which is a forgone conclusion. That is not how your post read, if that was your meaning you were not clear.

[kinsman]

OK! Please close this thread!

[tailscrape]

kinsman,dada,slt,flex etc....

truce....;)

[kinsman]

Lima

I think we crossed edit's, mate!

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Ok

I'll delete. Your u-turn has just raised you in my estimations for what its worth !

[SLT]

Fair enough...... :p

Now that we've got that sorted, let's get back to some serious management and accountant slagging!!

[FD Standby]

Please close this thread, it has become utter rubbish!!!

It is full of mis-information (no announcement today, other that what we already expected), and frankly irrelvant junk.

The bigger this thread is, the more people read it, and some will buy this rubbish!!!

Close it now

[Hogg]

But I taught you wanted a Head to Head????????


:ouch:

[spy]

Nope wrong again, thread to be closed! But like the picture of the pig!

P.S. Still waiting for an apology from "Pprune pop" for his false accusation and editing!