WHY IS BA DUMPING THEIR 747s?

[747FOCAL]

Are they broke or thinking A380? Or? Heard both Cathay and Cargolux are in serious negotiations to buy a large portion of the BA 747 fleet.

[HZ123]

Is there a time scale i.e.Is this some time in the future as BA is standardising the 744 engines to one type only which is a major cost project that has just been approved.

However, there is and has been a rumour for some time that BA would look to expand the total of 777s and reduce the 744's. Do you think that there would be enough work for the future as there is also a project to winglet the classics which would improve there economy by up to 10%.

[cumulo-granite]

HZ123

BA don't have any classics left to 'winglet'

Cheers,

CG

:(

[chock2chock]

They have nearly sixty of those bloody things! I bet they could do away with some of the earlier models. Especially those with the earlier versions of the RB211-524Hs which i believe were quite problematic when they stated off. I believe they did something similar with the 767s.

[cumulo-granite]

One 767-300 in storage still - 'NWC I believe - back from 'the desert' but not flying commercial flights

CG

[747FOCAL]

Notso Fantastic,

Might want to read CargoFacts as this is discussed in recent issues. :)

[HZ123]

I was aware that BA have dispensed of the 'classic' but I refered to those that others have. There is indeed an approved conversion now for 777 winglets I recall an article in 'Flight' within the last couple of months. The conversion to one type rated engine for all is fact as I have seen it in print.

[Ruffles1960]

Heard a rumour in the pub about A380's?????

[747FOCAL]

API looked at blended winglets for the 777 and figured out that the 777 wing is already so efficient that adding a winglet will only bring VERY minimal benefit.

Ruffles1960,

I heard that anyone dumb enough to accept a seat on the upper deck better bring a parachute to slow them in case of EVAC down the slide. Also heard they are going to ban women with skirts and nylons from the upper deck as well.

:E :p

[akerosid]

Cathay is reportedly on the lookout for secondhard 744s as well, so BA's RR powered aircraft would probably be a good place to start; it wants to convert some of its early 744s to freighters (someone - can't remember who - is starting a 744 pax-to-cargo conversion project; I think it's Singapore Aerospace) as well as add capacity to its pax routes.

I fully expect BA to reduce its 744 fleet, as it can, but unfortunately, there are not too many takers for them and rather than trying to fire-sell them, which is doesn't need to do - it can keep them going. Another problem is a replacement. The 773 seems like a logical choice, but the ER is only available with GE engines; the best option might be an increased gross weight RR model, but that would still be relatively short legged and certainly would not be able to do n/s from NRT, SIN, BKK, HKG, which would be a requirement. Might they consider the ER? Who knows; they have GE90 experience anyway, so it can't be ruled out. Surely more likely than 340-600s anyway.

BA has said it doesn't want the 380, but I think events will probably force its hand. Besides which, in all fairness to BA, it's been a standard setter for the latest F and J class products, which cuts down on aircraft capacity because of the space taken up, so a 380 in BA configuration might not seat more than 400-450 pax.

[BahrainLad]

747FOCAL, what is it with you and the A380 upper deck evac?

A company like Airbus with, let me remind you, 50% and climbing of the world's aircraft market will not screw this one up. The A380 will be certified, enter service and be as safe as the next aircraft.

Why can't you accept that we Europeans are not dumb, can actually build aeroplanes and in doing so teach you lot a thing or two in the process?

Back to the topic: BA could have really used something the size of the 777-300 when they expanded their BAH/DOH route from 777-200 to 747-400 recently. I can imagine the efficiency on only a 6 hour sector is less than ideal.

[747FOCAL]

BahrainLad,

Where did I say Airbus or anyone that is in the EU is dumb??? I have said it time and time again that I like Airbus and the way they do things vs Boeing. But......

I have looked out many a 747 upper deck from the door. I have also looked off the roof of a 4 story building. Granted, I am a little skittish when it comes to heights, but I just have issues with trying to get the "cattle" to jump on a slide from that height in a timely fashion. anybody that has been to a REAL passenger EVAC cert test knows how the people end up all piled up at the bottom.

I never said Airbus would screw this up. The only thing I have said is that a lot of people will get hurt in doing so. :rolleyes:

[747FOCAL]

Notso Fantastic,

Forgive me, I only meant the "I heard" comments in fun.

The idiots that trample for the club seats atop a 747 have no idea that cabin noise is almost double up there and is why most don't put first class up there.

Any 747 pilots wanna talk about upper deck noise?:E

[747FOCAL]

Notso Fantastic,

Ouch, a personal attack. Now Danny or one of the other mods is gonna chew us.

Where I get my information is what I do for a living. It is fact, the upper deck of a 747 is louder than below. I could demonstrate, but that would be revealing proprietary data.

When I say "idiots" I mean anybody that would trample or act the fool on a commercial aircraft is an idiot. Just because a person can afford/obtain a club ticket does not mean they are smart. You just called me an idiot. I was once in coach as a child, but have never been back since and I fly +60,000 miles a year. Love them lay down seats and the shower once I get to Heathrow.
:\

[strake]

Well, I can fly First if I want but save money by going upper deck club BA in 62 or 64 A or K. Lot's of space and easy access. In addition there are four engines to keep me aloft. I know all the arguments for ER twins but.....

[Groaner]

Maybe trying to get a little back to the topic...

What I find very interesting about the CargoFacts article is that Cathay says they are also going to use the BA 744s (as well as freighter-convert) to replace A340-300s...

[Hand Solo]

Bah humbug! 744s make cr@p freighters, thats why FedEx won't touch them. Shame there aren't enough MD11s to go round!

As for this:
But , it is longhaul in BA that makes money.

Might I humbly remind NSF that the only fleet to make money in BA in the 12 months post 9/11 was the ten-strong A319 fleet at BHX, and long haul is still propped up by the pro-rated mileage revenue allocation system.

[747FOCAL]

Hand Solo,

The FedEx reason for not buying Boeing has nothing to do with the 747. Boeing not developing a hushkit for the 727 is the real reason.


As for you Mr. not pointing the finger as that is against the rules.... Matter of fact I LOVE YOUR AIRLINE!!! I would never unless under duress travel anyone but them across the pond. God only knows how many pairs of them blue socks I have that I wear on gods day, sunday, football day, right ;) So before you go acusing me of attacking YOUR airline you might want to try to understand what I do for YOUR airline on a day to day basis.


Ignore me, shoot, what makes you think I would ever contact you with how you "debate". :uhoh: :oh: :ouch: :)

[skibeagle]

I have flown about forty sectors with BA in Club class on B744's over the past two years. I always request the upper deck. I believe the area to be more personal (am I right in thinking a better passenger-FA ratio ?). I can't say I have noticed it to be any louder than the maindeck, and anyway, the little brown bag has some yellow things in it called "ear-plugs", wow, what a darn concept that is...

Sure, I have concerns about the helter-skelter ride down to the tarmac, especially having twisted an ankle once in training from a B767, (clumsy clot eh, but no worry with BA as I would have a few Bellini's in me at this point to deter the pain). Maybe the skipper could bash off the nosewheel in his emergency landing/abort ? At which pont, I reckon my ride will be only marginally further than those from the back door. I also want to be close to the flight deck door, if some git wants in to the Flight Deck, I want to be close by.

Overall I believe it to be the best Club/Business product on the market, (compared to LH, Swiss and Air Canada anyway). I just hope the arrogance of Ayling Bob's days stays firmly in the annals of history.

[Yak97]

Perhaps, as they won't play ball over Concorde, BA might like to sell them to RB - Going rate a fiver each?

I bet he could make a profit with them (Even if its just LON-MAN-GLA to replace his awfull trains).

[Torquelink]

There has been a surplus of B744s recently - given the state of the industry it's hardly surprising that the biggest beasts are hit the hardest and, of course, the same market conditions mean its difficult to move them on the used market. But the B744 has pretty much the lowest smc in the business and if you can fill 'em you'll make good money. The talk about possible used buys by CX, TG, VS and others are straws in the wind showing that some carriers are waking up to the fact that this lift is presently available at knock-down prices. BA have been looking to shed some 744s for years in view of the fewer but higher yield policy.

Aviation Partners Boeing are presently evaluating two possible blended winglet configs for the B744 (they've already flight tested winglets on the 74 Classic but that dog has truly had its day). Both configurations reduce drag resulting in a reduction in cruise sfc of 5% leading to increased still-air range of some 250nm and a reduction in required thrust resulting in reduced engine-costs. High altitude field performance is also improved. Blended winglets allied to low second hand values could give the 744 a significant increase in operational longevity (and no, I don't work for APB!)

There is no APB programme for the 777 and when TG asked Boeing if they could have a -200ER variant with a MTOW of 699,000lb so they could have Trents (the GE exclusivity starts at 700,000lb) Boeing said no and now TG have ordered 340-500s/600s instead. It could be that BA carry more weight but Boeing seem to be more keen to avoid offending GE than getting additional 777 sales!

[CR2]

Cargolux buying BA 744s for conversion? I won't claim to know everything that goes on in my airline, but that really is a new one on me.
Like anyone else in the industry, we're looking/evaluating future aircraft. A380F (:yuk: personal view), more new 400Fs, 400ERF (though they don't have RR engines which we use) and converted pax -400s). There is a thread on Freight Dogs ( here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104048) ) about the -400SF, so won't rehash it here.

[eal401]

With regards to the winglets on 744s, as I understand there is a company which offers blended winglet replacements for this aircraft. It provides some economic benefits from the "factory fitted" ones.

Whilst a little iffy in his address, 747FOCAL does have a point regarding upper deck evac of an A380, so people may well baulk at such a "ride." However, I am confident that this is an issue Airbus will have addressed.

[747FOCAL]

If there were any blended winglets available for the 744 I would know about them. APB went out and tried to market them and got their lunch handed to them by Boeing senior management. :E They never lived on the 747-200s as the outer wing box could not take the added stress. I would say you will see an aftermarket winglet available for the 744 eventually. :)

[Torquelink]

747FOCAL

I attended a recent APB presentation on wingletted 744. Project v much alive and well. According to APB, Boeing support their efforts as a wingletted 744 will do more damage to Airbus than themselves. Outer wing requires reinforcement either through stringers or upper surface skin - yet to be decided.

[747FOCAL]

Torquelink,

Nice to hear that Boeing did not succeed in killing the APB program for the 744. I had no sooner gotten the package for my cert approval of the numbers and was told that APB had run amuk and that there would be no blended winglets on the 747 as the ones that are currently delivered were the "best" that could ever be designed. :yuk:

[eal401]

747FOCAL

Agree with Torquelink, I read about the 744 re-wingletting recently. Can't remember which publication though I am afraid.

[747FOCAL]

Problem is, everybody around here thinks the 747 is the best plane flying and is impossible to improve on. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

When a company like APB says we can improve this or any Boeing airplane by 6% the senior engineers all shoot it down as BS. The "Not invented here" scenario rings very hard around Boeing. Ask APB about all the working pains with the 737 winglets. I don't think Joe Clark would have ever signed up with Boeing if he would have known then what he knows now. :ok:

[eal401]

Problem is, everybody around here thinks the 747 is the best plane flying and is impossible to improve on.

You can leave me OUT of that group!! :suspect:

[Torquelink]

I'm sorry to hear that Boeing take such a blinkered view of other people's improvements to their aircraft. I would have thought that any improvement that kept the aircraft flying longer and burning spares would be welcomed. I suppose that they may argue they don't want to lose new sales but it's just as likely that it would be Airbus losing new sales. Certainly, with no new 747 variant likely for years (if ever) improving the existing models would be more likely to damage A380 sales than anything else.

[747FOCAL]

Torquelink,

Just look at the Hushkit market. Boeing told their customers back in the day that it was economically impossible to bring these older aircraft to Stage 3. The truth was some sales w*nker decided that Boeing would sell a lot of airplanes if they could not meet noise requirements. What happened? The airlines revolted and companies like FedEx, Nordam & Raisbeck made billions and they sold dick for 757s compared to the 727. :cool: They also pissed off some of their biggest customers to the point that they have publically said they will NEVER buy aircraft directly from Boeing again. :{

Your correct about the A380 and that is the only reason that Boeing is offering the 744SF. Not sure how many they will sell though. They are 6 Million plus over IAI for the conversion. :hmm:

[Capt Homesick]

Perhaps the solution to the upper deck slide problem will be to install a roofed slide? It would still be steep, but would look a lot less intimidating to the pax- from the top, anyway!
I don't think the roof would have to extend all the way down- just far enough to lessen the apparent slope. Would this work?

[747FOCAL]

Capt Homesick,

Smart man. Airbus has already thought of this and has implemented the tent. I still think it may backfire on them as people will have trouble jumping into anything they cannot see the bottom of and you also will not be able to see the pile of humanity at the bottom so the pile will just grow and grow. :uhoh:

[Torquelink]

747FOCAL

I just hope that Boeing learn their lesson. I read somewhere that when they were looking at the 747-400XQLR(?) they reckoned that a number of aerodynamic improving and noise reducing mods that were supposed to be part of the XQLR would be retrofittable to the -400 i.e. blunt-edged (MD11 style) flaps, chevronned nacelles etc so that existing aircraft could meet QC2 and reduce fuel burn etc. If they decide not to do this I hope someone else does - maybe one of the outfits you mention - because with 600+ aircraft out there with no obvious replacement there would be a significant market for a package of mods (maybe including the blended winglets) which resulted in reduced noise, costs and improved performance.

[747FOCAL]

Hmmmmmm.........

Analysts wary of 747-400 future despite new sales
Airlines line up to take used aircraft, but it is unclear if this will spell a long-term upturn

Flight International 11/11/03
author: Max Kingsley-Jones
author: Leithen Francis

Analysts say it is too early to predict whether the increased interest in secondhand Boeing 747-400s from airlines in Asia and Europe suggests a long-term upturn in the fortunes for the 400-seat widebody.

Cathay Pacific plans to acquire up to 15 747-400s in the next few years, while Malaysia Airlines is believed to be seeking two secondhand aircraft. Thai Airways International is acquiring seven ex-United Airlines aircraft. Meanwhile, French charter airline Corsair is believed to be finalising a deal to replace its five 747-300s with ex-United -400s.

According to Airclaims, there are 33 idle 747-400s and the consultancy director Edward Pieniazek of the UK consultancy says these deals "do not address the overall inventory imbalance". He adds, however, that with Asia's post-SARS recovery making good progress "others could come out of the woodwork and may start a trend".

Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific says it is "looking to buy up to 15 747-400s over the next few years. Some will be used for passengers and some will be converted into freighters." Cathay operates 19 747-400 passenger aircraft and five freighters, all of which are Rolls-Royce RB211-powered.

The airline's Oneworld alliance partner British Airways, which operates 57 RB211-powered 747-400s, has been looking to reduce the fleet by about 20% and has held on-off talks with Cathay about a deal.

Corsair operates five 747-300s and is thought to be acquiring Pratt & Whitney PW4000-powered, ex-United 747-400s to replace them after evaluating an offer from Boeing for similar, ex-Singapore Airlines machines that are being returned to the US manufacturer. Corsair's deal is thought to include the trade-in of its -300s.

MAS, which operates 17 PW4000-powered -400s, is looking for two all-passenger examples with P&W engines. The airline returned two General Electric CF6-powered 747-400 combis to Boeing last year.

Thai concluded a deal with Star Alliance partner United earlier this year for seven 747-400s.

[wellthis]

747FOCAL, thanks for providing the comic relief, it was great!

It does seems odd that First is not upstairs, high noise level would make some sense. You are right though that BA does provide best service in the transatlantic route. Some of the other carriers don't even provide individual screens yet. I don't really like the rear-facing seats, but I guess they had to make maximum use of the space. Also great is the window in the lav as one watches the clouds roll by!

Speaking of high noise, there were suggestions here that the reason for BA getting rid of 744s was the RB211's high noise signature on take-off out of HRW. If true, why would CX want them? Are they different in noise certification? Any info/links appreciated.