View Full Version : ICAO Licenses
21st Oct 2003, 17:38
Could someone tell me the difference between, ICAO licence and a JAA or FAA licence.
An ICAO licence is one acceptable to ICAO. That is, it meets criteria laid down by them. Both JAA and FAA licences are ICAO licences. The UK NPPL, for example, is not an ICAO licence, it is a national (UK) one. Hope this helps.
21st Oct 2003, 18:11
Thanks for your reply, see i am thinking of doing a professtional pilot training course in Florida, and i am stuck between two:
European Flight Training www.flyeft.com
-Which gives you JAA and FAA licences with 1,500 Hrs total time
Cost : $45,000
Phoenix East Aviation www.pea.com
-Which gives you FAA licences with 1,500 Hrs total time, but says it provides ICAO Licences?
Can anyone help please:(
21st Oct 2003, 18:28
Without having looked at their website, or having any knowledge of PEA, the FAA license that they will get you is (as GT said) an ICAO license.
If you want a JAA license, you will have to convert it. There are lots of threads around on converting ICAO licenses to JAR, and full details are in LASORS. I don't have any experience of this, but from reading about other peoples' experiences it seems that it's generally quite difficult for low-hours pilots. If you want an FAA and a JAA license, it seems to be easier to get the JAA license first then convert it to FAA.
21st Oct 2003, 19:23
Thanks for your information, I have looked at the posts on converting licences, but i have another question:
- If I did have an ICAO Licence would I be able to fly in the UK?
21st Oct 2003, 19:57
Yes if you have a JAA licence (which is also and ICAO licence).
Yes if you have an FAA licence (which is also ICAO), BUT the aircraft you fly in the UK must be 'N' registered ie. US registered aircraft.
Yes if you have an FAA licence AND convert it to a JAA licence.
Basically Gareth, both FAA and JAA licences are ICAO licences. Look at it as though ICAO is the overall international umbrella organisation covering international aviation.
But, each individual country (in our case, Europe as a whole now) have their own governing bodies having jurisdiction over their own aviation industries. Thee FAA for the USA and the JAA for us in the UK and the rest of Europe.
The snag comes where you may think that as both FAA and JAA licences are issued under the ICAO umbrella then the two are somehow easily interchangeable. They are not.
The frustration lies in the fact that you must convert between FAA and JAA licences to have full priviledges in either the USA and Europe respectively. The fact that they are both ICAO licences, in actual practical terms, means little.
Hope that hasn't muddied the waters for you.
I've also seen the term 'JAR compliant' being used by a US school. Does this mean anything in real terms or is it simply the FAA/ICAO licence?
29th Oct 2003, 20:38
I don't think that "JAR compliant" is a meaningful term. In order to give instruction under JARs an organisation needs to be "registered" (for PPL training) or "approved" for commercial, IR or instructor training.
29th Oct 2003, 20:50
The school I have seen offering 'JAA Compliant' licences basically puts you through the FAA PPL syllabus plus the extra exams you need for the JAA licence. You undertake the FAA PPL and JAA PPL flight tests at the end of it so come away with 2 licences.
The only reason I can think they call it JAA compliant is if you fail or dont take the JAA side for whatever reason you can still come home and get a licence off the back of your FAA licence.
This school however does have a resgistered JAA examiner onboard so for others, as stated earlier, I would prob guess they are just offering FAA licences - if you def want a JAA licence then check up before you head out they are going to give you what you want.
29th Oct 2003, 23:55
Right, I hope this clears something up. In order to work in Europe you have to have your JAA stuff. It is more expensive though, so what lots of people do is come to the states, get their FAA stuff, instruct to build some time and then convert their FAA ( US) stuff into JAA stuff, which is not that simple. I have my FAA ATP, with more than 1500 hours but I still have to do the JAA ATPL written exams, a commercial JAA flight check and 15 hours min IR course to get the JAA IR. I know phoniex east pretty well, as I worked for the big flight school next to it and have a relative working there. Its got pretty good rates, but you get nearly all that flight time, 1500 hours of it from instructing. And you will have to get it done before your visa runs out etc. After you do what I am doing and sit the groundschool, 6 months and then the conversions.It gets complcated, and flight schools tell you what you want to hear, so get some good advice before decieding what to do.
I dont know the specifics of your situation, but if I was you I would come to the states, and get my FAA private certificate. With thi in hand I would sit the groundschools for the atpl, then I would finish my training in the states and build some time intructing and do the flight conversions when I got the chance, that way you could aplly for work in europe while you were instructing tin the states. Hope this helps, and good luck
I am interested in the ĎJAR compliantí multi-rating advertised by a US school. From whatís been said it appears that I would (hopefully) get FAA & JAA multi-ratings but, according to the school, the advantage comes when it is re-validation time. The school says that the JAR compliant licence only requires you to have made three take offs and landings within 90 days before carrying passengers. There is no expiration of the licence or revalidation of the rating required.
So, if Iím not getting enough multi-time to warrant revalidation of the JAA rating, I can still fly N reg multi in the UK to retain currency when it suits me. Is this correct & if so, could I then re-validate the JAA rating if I ever need it?
30th Oct 2003, 20:48
You would have to check with the CAA about that (get it in writing!) . You may still have an FAA rating, good for N-registered aircraft, even possibly G-registered flown on your FAA PPL (can you do that with a twin? Can with a single), but remember you have to persuade someone to rent you one. May be difficult in the UK if you were out of validity on your JAA rating even if technically legal. Not sure about revalidation of a MEP rating - there will be a maximum time period for lapses, though it is probably several years.
31st Oct 2003, 00:14
There is a lot of confusion regarding FAA and JAA licences, so here are the facts:-
If you hold an FAA licence, you may exercise the privileges of that licence while flying a G registered aircraft in the UK and abroard (assuming the foreign CAA accept the CAA's "validation", which all the European agencies I've contacted do). This includes exercising the privileges of any Multi ratings, or complex endorsements, or even type ratings at a private level. the only exception is the Instrument rating, which is limited to "outside controlled airspace" by the ANO. So yea, you can get an FAA PPL, and then come home and fly around at night if you want (as the FAA PPL includes night privileges) with NO conversion whatsoever.If flying an N reg in Europe / Abroad, you may exercise ALL the privilegs of your FAA ticket, including IR.
A JAR complient licence is a convienient way for Non-approved FTOs in the US to issue a JAA licence. As they are non-approved, they are unable to do the initial examination, but once the student is FAA certified the resident examiner is then allowed to do the "conversion"....Basically the course consists of the FAA PPL course plus airlaw and RT I think.
As far as converting FAA ATPs to JAA ATPLs, it is fairly straight forward IF you already have the ATPL grounds. In this case, you are excempt from a commercial course, just need to take the flight test, and the IR course is reduced to 15 hrs, 10 of which can be done in the Sim. Otherwise you need the JAA ATPLs, and if you hold an FAA ATP then you are excemp from a "formal course" for the ATPL ground studies (ie. basically you just need to show up for the exams.....Bristol seem to be the place to go). In my experience someone who is at FAA ATP standard should be able to convert in this minimum time. An FAA CPL IR can also convert, but although you are excempt from the CPL course, and the IR requirements drop to 15 hrs, you are not excempt from the "formal residential course" of the ATPL ground studies. So if you have a UK PPL and the ATPLs, then you can go to the US get a CPL IR and then convert in minimul time. If you do this route, make sure you are trained by a school which knows the UK system, then your IR training for the FAA IR will also include much of the IR conversion training (the FAA hardly use NDBs whereas JAA does for example) and the FAA CPL course will be taylored to not only the FAA system but also the Uk system making conversion a lot easier. I used Angel City Flyers who are based in Enstone and Long Beach (http://www.acflyers.co.uk/), the instructors there are mostly dual FAA and JAA.
31st Oct 2003, 03:16
Just to add to Englishal
Should you have an FAA PPL with less than 100 hours you will be required to sit all the 7 PPL written exams and then the skill test.
If you have attained more than 100 hours, you are only required to complete 2 written exams.
I understand that JAR compliant schools can complete the flight test if they have a JAA examiner but not the written tests as the school needs to be JAA approved instead of JAR compliant to hold the written test papers.
It all depends on your goals......at the end of the day you can get to the same place in many ways.......how you get there is very much dependant on your situation and experience already held.
Gareth17 If I did have an ICAO Licence would I be able to fly in the UK?
Yes - we have a number of them at Popham - South African, Zimbabwean and US. There's no conversion required for private purposes. I was phoned only today by someone who has just run out of money convertion training from his SA PPL to a UK NPPL just before the tests. He never knew, and his school never told him, that he didn't need to convert - he just wanted fun flying in the UK whilst he's living here and his SA PPL will do for that.
jma: The school says that ... There is no expiration of the licence or revalidation of the rating required.
Doesn't sound like any licence I've heard of - (well with one exception which doesn't apply here and would just take us off on a tangent).
I'm pretty sure all the ICAO ones need revalidations! Any expansion on what they were talking about??? I hope it's not the old "FAA PPLs don't need BFRs". If they are coming out with that, I'd worry about the other info!
31st Oct 2003, 05:24
I'm pretty sure all the ICAO ones need revalidations
I'm guessing they are refering to an FAA licence which never "expires". Every 2 years you need a BFR but should you go out of date on the BFR all it means is that you cannot fly until the BFR has been completed. On successful completion of the BFR then you can exercise the privileges of the FAA licence for a further 24 months. You could leave it 10 years if you wanted, then do the BFR (assuming you can still fly :D) and be legal again.
31st Oct 2003, 15:18
Just to maybe clarify, there is no revalidation required in the JAA sense, i.e. go up with an examiner, pay them lots of money and enjoy the stress of yet another flight test every year.
However, you are required to undertake BFRs. These are done with an instructor and are fairly simple, for PPL say you would go up and show him stalls, steep turns, engine out procedure, etc. - just as you would on a club checkout.
The exception would be the FAA IR which is self-revalidating as long as you keep within the 6 month rolling window of currency, just make sure you keep your PPL (or whatever licence you are flying under), current via BFRs as well.