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Timothy
17th Oct 2003, 00:28
I have been asked to fly someone to Kemijarvi, Finland on 24 November in my Aztec, staying a couple of days.

Kemijarvi is 6742N 02709E. They could be as cold as -35, but would typically be -25.

Can anyone advise me about whether I am likely to be able to start the engines in -35, with normal W80 installed?

If not what can I do to preheat them?

Will starting at -35 damage them?

What do I use to avoid fuel ice at the -56 I am likely to encounter at altitude? Where do I get it (near Biggin or Fairoaks)?

What survival equipment do I need? Can I hire it (near Biggin/Fairoaks)?

Does anyone know anything about Kemijarvi? The phone is answered by a very bad-tempered lady who only speaks Finnish, so I got Helsinki AIS to call them. She said that she knew nothing about the airfield. Only when AIS called them back asking for the airport manager by name were they put through to him. He also doesn't speak English. All this makes me think that maybe Kuusamo might be a better bet, but I would love to hear from anyone with positive experience of Kemijarvi.

Of course, all the questions above still apply to Kuusamo.

Finally, I would like to say how unbelievably helpful were Helsinki AIS.

W

Cusco
17th Oct 2003, 00:41
Are you doing this flight for gold or love?

Cusco.

Timothy
17th Oct 2003, 00:46
I am mainly doing it because a friend wants me to, but also because I am interested in the challenge.

Gold and love are secondary considerations.

Why do you ask?

W

Final 3 Greens
17th Oct 2003, 02:15
WC

I have never flown myself in Finland, but have spent much time there on business.

Personally I would not consider challenging the WX there in winter. It takes no prisoners.

You may encounter very olow temperatures (-37 is the worst I have experienced), strong winds, low cloudbase, whiteout etc etc and if you have to put her down 'in a field' (which you will not be able to see due snow, due to tech problems, your survival time without the proper kit will be measured in minutes rather than hours. Even in a car, we used to carry salopettes, warm jackets etc and we avoided frozen lakes for fear of finding a thin piece of ice.

Of course, the weather could also be severe VFR, in which case I imagine it would be as good as it ever gets, but the climate and environment are extreme.

The Finns are normally quite friendly, so you were unlucky if you found a rude person.

Me. I'd be on a Finnair flt, but if you go, I wish you the very best of conditions.

sycamore
17th Oct 2003, 02:36
Doubtless you may get some help from the real bush-pilots on another forum, so here are a few snippets, whic may be open to flaming!
Check the manufacturers h/b for helpful hints/ oil /hydraulics etc
check drain fuel tanks to be sure there is no residual water /sediment etc. check all hoses as they will get brittle, same with heater ducting.
Check your tyres are in good shape, and carry a spare main and n/w, or a repair kit.
a/frame and prop de-ice working?
If you can get hangarage, do so,even if its expensive; even so a fullset of a/c covers including engines,pitot,etc.
Remove batteries for any prolonged stop/overnight.
You may have to drain the oil if no hangarage and the temp. gets really down; then pre-heat the oil AND engine before you add warm oil.Make sure you know how to do it, and lock drain plugs etc, ---ALWAYS wear gloves as if you touch cold metal surfaces, you will leave your skin behind!!
Oleos may leak if cold soaked--- if you are really stuck top up with warm engine oil as it is thicker.

Take a couple of de-icing spray cans to de-ice around tyres as they can freeze to a wet/damp surface- failing that , pi** over them!
In-flight , exercise your props regularly at very cold temps as the CSU will get cold soaked an so will the oil.You may also need a partial- blanking plate for the oil coolers,even if they have flaps.

Survival-- sleeping bags, engie/a/f covers, PLB (2), mobile, first-aid kit , flares, food, good cold weather clothing, and wear it whilst flying , in case the heater may fail. FIRE-LIGHTING KIT ,.... the list is endless, but..., better to be prepared.
You may wish to think about speaking to Safety Services at Kemble, or Far North at Wick, for eqt, or cheap fuel if you went across from there.

As I said, others may have different thoughts, but hope it works ..
PS.. IT WILL TAKE YOU A LOT LONGER TO PREP THE A/C. AND CHECK DAYLIGHT HOURS FOR THE LATITUDE.Ensure you land well b4 daylight ends, and beware the windchill factor .... and...etc:ok:

Saab Dastard
17th Oct 2003, 03:08
WCollins,

I heartily agree with Sycamore's suggestion about hangarage - I would think it is essential.

I have no experience of flying in very cold conditions - however, I remember living in Canada in the wintertime and experiencing temperatures of 72 degrees below freezing point (-40 F).

Nobody left their cars out overnight if they wanted to use them before springtime! You had to garage your car to prevent the engine from freezing solid (OK, that was water cooling, but I guess there are other fluids that will freeze, pipes / hoses that will become brittle etc). Even in the garage it was essential to heat the engine overnight with some form of electric heater (unless the garage is heated) to allow the engine to be started at all.

I guess the same applies to aircraft engines.

BTW, I would carry skis or snowshoes as part of the survival kit, as walking in deep snow anywhere away from "the beaten track" is virtually impossible!

Good Luck

SD

sycamore
17th Oct 2003, 03:29
And another thing or two... EFKM is 6643N, don`t think it has Customs and no lighting.
A couple of old tennis rackets will make snowshoes, ; you can make up your own survival kit with tea, coffee, Mars bars, readymix soups, take a couple of small saucepans to boil snow in --- don`t touch it if it`s yellow!! and a couple of flasks.Good sunglasses,and a good cream as windchill will dry you out. As F3G said it can be very harsh,and if the wx deteriorates,ie snow , then whiteout is a real danger... Hope you have a good `un...:ok:

Timothy
17th Oct 2003, 04:17
....hmmmm...

I don't know if you lot are making me want to do this more or less!

Yes, it is 6643N, according to ProPlan. I've left the page from the Finnish AIP I was referring to at the office, but either I am dyslexic or it is wrong there...either a bit worrying!

It sounds like Kuusamo is more likely to offer reliable hangarage than Kemijarvi, which is an argument for it, but it's much further from our destination, Salla.

Anyway, still open to more information if any is available, otherwise, thank you all.

W

sycamore
17th Oct 2003, 04:49
And another few things...., just found a few other bits that may br useful... Iwas in contact with SEMS Aerosafe, Basildon, and have a very faded fax paper, when i was possibly ferrying a mil. jet to Sweden a couple of years ago, and they also have a range of survival gear at reasonable prices.. I didn`t go in the end, and the tel .no. is faded/ illegible.
From an NTSB bulletin; operate heater on ground as moisture/ condensation in the ducting can freeze over the w/screen in flt. putting you IFR in the cockpit!
KEEP POWER ON IN THE DESCENT TO PREVENT OVERCOOLING the engines, and exercise props in descent for the same reasons..... you may also need to raise the idle speeds to prevent rundown.

It would be a good idea to make sure all u/c operating mechanisms are well purged with grease, as any water will freeze, and you may not get them down.

After t/o on a wet surface/ snow slush etc, delay getting the gear up to allow it to drain, and cycle the gear a couple of times . same with flaps ---practice flapless landings. Trimmers have also been known to freeze unless well lubricated.
Get a Carbon monoxide check on you heater

Try the Nordic Forum for local details

Timothy
17th Oct 2003, 05:21
Try the Nordic Forum for local detailsI had forgotten/never noticed that there was a Nordic Forum, so thank you also for that suggestion. I have posted there.

What a rich source of information this Forum is!!:D

W

sycamore
17th Oct 2003, 06:18
I`ve just PM`d you as well WC, and am now spinning this out as I had a hit from a Mod....!!!

bluskis
17th Oct 2003, 06:32
If the temperatures never rise above -40 my comments may be irrelavent, however this winter in the Alps temperatures fell to -15/-20 and stayed that way for days in the mountain shadows.

Frost was heavy on the wings and roof as would be expected.

The door locks could not be opened, which was just as well, as the rubber door seals would have been ripped had I opened them.

The fuel filler flap seals were ripped when I did a fuel inspection.

Fuel drains were forced open by frozen fuel, and a continuous drip of fuel ensued, adding to the block of solid holding the drains open.

Whether the battery would have turned the motors over I never found out, nut I suspec they would have been reluctant.

I was in perfect flying visability, and going no where.

This winter I am making enquiries about hangarage.

Good luck.

Flyin'Dutch'
18th Oct 2003, 03:33
WCollins,

I know he caters for a different sort of climate extremes but I think you could do worse than ringing Andy Bruce from Far North at Wick.

He can certainly help with giving you the name of the source for the fuel additive and I suspect a few more handy tips on how to tackle this trip too.

I take it that we can see a write up about this trip in a magazine near us shortly after the event!?!

FD

Timothy
18th Oct 2003, 06:37
FD

I'll Contact Andy, thank you.I take it that we can see a write up about this trip in a magazine near us shortly after the event!?! ...hmm...I hadn't thought of that...not a bad idea, I'll see if I can make contact with any of the editors :D :O :D :O :p

W