night flying

[genius-747]

Hello.

Can someone please tell me what is required for a JAR-FCL PPL holder to fly an aircraft at night?

Also when a night rating is obtained what are the restrictions of night flying... ie. is it restricted to CTR's? and can visual approaches to the runway be made?.. do you need approach lighting etc..

Thanks for any responses.

[Fly Stimulator]

Can someone please tell me what is required for a JAR-FCL PPL holder to fly an aircraft at night? In a word - carrots!

A more in-depth answer (for the UK at least) is available in this (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf) and this (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_A.pdf) section of LASORS.

A UK JAR PPL with a Night Qualification flying in the UK can fly outside CTRs and can make visual approaches.

Just noticed you're in Ireland, so you may want to read this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102661) where I asked about night flying there. A consensus eventually emerged. :)

[Circuit Basher]

I think FS has answered this adequately, but one topic which came to my attention last night that I haven't found a ready answer to in the ANO interests me.

A couple of guys from our club were away in the club a/c and had delays getting back, such that it was after published hours for the home airfield (which is an A/G service) and was, in fact, dark! The aircraft is on an out of hours waiver for the field. One of the pilots was night qualified.

They tried to get into Dundee, but it was shut. They also tried Fife, which was in darkness. Eventually, they flexed their credit cards and flew into Edinburgh, incurring a £104 bill - somehow, they managed by dint of some active discussion, to get the handling charge waived.

It was always my belief that a licensed airfield with an A/G service can be used for landings outside published hours if you have the permission of the aircraft owner (hence the out of hours waiver). I would thus have seriously considered landing at the home airfield in this circumstance, accepting the fact that it was in darkness (that was part of my night training at Bournemouth - all the approach aids got switched off). I cannot readily find an answer to this in the regs - anyone got any comment?? :)

[Dude~]

Circuit Basher, when you say 'all approah aids were turned off, I presume you mean the runway lights too, however, no one should ever consider landing by the light of their aircraft lights alone as this is foolhardy and best left for emergency situations, not just to save a handling fee. It is exceptionally difficult to judge flare height under the landing light of an average PA28, not to mention the consequences of a blown bulb - a fairly common occourunce on PA28s and light aircraft.

[IO540]

CB

Presumably the airfield wasn't completely in darkness?

Even with the best accuracy of GPS I don't think one can do a night approach (using the aircraft lights only) if it is really dark.

[Circuit Basher]

I wasn't actually there, but I believe it was officially in the hours of darkness, but with some residual natural light. As I say, I was more interested in the legalities rather than the practicalities! And yes, I have (as part of my training) landed by aircraft landing light alone - eerie feeling!

At the airfield in question, the only nav aid is a VOR - on specified training nights in winter, there are VASIs.

[GRP]

Sorry... how does one see where the runway is if it is dark and has no edge lighting at least? I was taught to use the 'string of pearls' provided by the edge lighting in the absence of any approach lights, but that would clearly not work if the runway was not lit at all!!

Am I missing something here?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Same way you get home from the village pub in the dark without a torch, you use what's there. In practice it's not that hard particularly if there's isn't too much nearby streetlighting to confuse the issue (and ruin your night vision) if the skies are fairly clear.

After landing, seeing to taxi can be the most difficult bit, and where the landing light is actually most useful.

G

[flyingwysiwyg]

Hi Folks,

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I just wanted to get a couple of things straight.

I'm considering doing my night rating. Am I correct in assuming the following:

Its about 5 hours training

I will be able to fly after "official sunset"

I could land at my home airfield after hours, providing its light enough to see what I'm doing (assuming no runway lights or PAPI, VASI etc.....).?

If it's got really dark I would have to fly to an airfield with 24 Hr ATC and some lights?

How much night flying would I have to do in a year to keep my rating, and if I lose it, is it a check ride with an instructor?

Anything else I should know?

Excuse the ignorance, and thanks in advance. :O

F - Wyg

[140cherokee]

F-Wyg,

Yes, 5 hours training. No written paper or skills test.

It's a qualification, not a rating, and therefore no revalidation (although you must have performed one take-off and landing after dark in the previous 90 days to carry passengers).

Although no legal revalidation requirement, school may require check ride if renting.

As for landing after dark at home airfield without lighting, don't do it. Hopefully, during your night training you will see that to try as much would be pretty stupid unless an emergency. Our home field has indemnity/waiver scheme for local aircraft but explicitly excludes landing after dark when closed.

140

[flyingwysiwyg]

140,

Thanks for that, exactly what I needed to know!

No way I would even want to attempt landing in the darkness with no lights. I have enough problems in the daylight! :ugh:

Cheers,

F - Wyg

[RodgerF]

Quote

I will be able to fly after "official sunset"


And before "official sunrise" if you are up early enough!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or if feeling really ambitious, from one to the other!

Now there's a challenge, the Dusk to Dawn....


However, what I find very annoying is how few UK airfields are open at night - far too many only turn the lights on once a week for a couple of hours night-training - which then most of their pilots find hard to use. I tried to negotiate a landing at about 7pm at Wolverhampton Spaceport last winter - just because I wanted to stop in the vicinity, and they would have charged me a small fortune to keep the lights on. Just one of the reasons why travelling around the UK by air is nothing like so easy as travelling around the US on similar routes where they have sensible innovations like automatic nightlighting. Sorry, got myself all worked up there.

G

[IO540]

One has to think of a forced landing in complete darkness... I would not mind night flying over water.

[S-Works]

one would rather not think about a forced landing in complete darkness!!! aim for the dark bit and pray!!!!!

[Fly Stimulator]

aim for the dark bit and pray!!!!!
Or as the saying goes, "Proceed directly to the site of the accident!"

[FlyingForFun]

Genghis, couldn't agree more.

My home airfield only opens at night a couple of days a week for training - weekdays only, which is no use to me because I can only fly at weekends.

My next nearest airfield also only opens on weekdays for night flying, but at least they open 5 days a week. Still, it's no use to me.

The next nearest after that will open 7 days a week. But only for pilots who are based there - there are some trees on final which become invisible at night, apparently.

So that leaves me with next fourth-nearest airfield, where I tried to do some night flying last year. The airfield is only open until 6pm, which doesn't leave enough time to get anywhere and come back. Add to that the fact that I was not at all impressed with the school I was renting from.... and won't be going back again this year.

The fifth-nearest airport is my next option (I guess I'm lucky to have 5 airports within almost-reasonable driving distance). I think they might be my best bet, but since I'm out of the country for half of the winter this year I haven't decided yet whether to go through the hassle of getting checked out at a new school. I might, though, because I love night-flying - everything becomes really pretty.

FFF
----------------

[mad_jock]

Sounds like we are quite lucky at INV.

gets dark about 5:30 after the clocks change

Airport is open until the last Gatwick flight is in 10pm.

And you struggle to get them to turn the lights off. Unless it one of the pilots on desk then your lucky to see the field on the down wind. ( asked for min lighting and the bugga turned the apron floods off as well)

Mind you there is an awful lot of water about and high ground.
On a clear full moon night it is brillant flying around the area.

MJ

[Dop]

I've always thought night flying must be really cool - if you're flying past towns and villages and can see all the streetlights and houses lit up. Especially cool on a full moon.

But I think the idea of what happens if the plane conks out on you in the dark is a bit too scary for me...!

[redsnail]

I fly at night all the time. Joys of night freight...
Last night was glorious, very cold though.

I am intrigued, there's no PAL (pilot activated lighting) here (UK)? In Australia, you use a VHF freq the click 3 times to activate the lighting. They stay on for either an hour or 30 min depending.

[BigEndBob]

Going back to where to land at night in a emergency going for the big black area may be a lake or a mountain.
Some years ago i spent many a happy hour or ten flying all night out of HG (WBAnot) around the Uk to clock up some night hours for the ATPL.
In England there was about six airfields to land at after about 9pm so most of my x/c was routed close to these airfields. This gave me alot of time to study the ground.
I often felt you could do no worse in the event of engine failure to turn into wind (usually non at the surface at night) set up low RofD and dodge whatever the landing light picked out at the last moment. Alternatively aim for the car headlights in the hope that alongside will be a field.
Even the countryside at 2am in the morning is criss crossed with car headlights or farm building lights.
I always enjoyed this time of year when night training started.
When everyone else is getting depressed of the thoughts of long winter nights, as pilots we can look forward to some of the most rewarding flying experiences.

[Deano777]

is it not sensible to obtain an IMC before doing the night rating? or is it a requirement? I know my flying club wont let me do a night rating without an IMC but obviously that could be just their 'requirement', do you need so many hours as PIC before doing the night rating as with the IMC?

happy flying :)

Dean :)

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Dean,

It isn't necessary to obtain an IMC before a Night Qualification, I had a Night Rating (as it was called) before obtaining an IMC rating.

However back in the good old days you required to have a certain amount of instrument time - 5 hours if I remember correctly. Quite sensible as you're flying without a horizon at night where you could end up in clouds that you can't see as easily as in the day time.

Also if youi're flying out of a Class D airport at night without an IMC rating you will need to take a Special VFR clearance out which a PPL/Night will legally need 10 kilometres visibility. With an IMC rating you could take it down to 3Km or if you have a suitably equipped plane fly an IAP with 1800 metre vis.

At night, as the atmosphere cools down, the chances of the visibility reducing to under 10km is quite possible. So what would happen for a PPL/Night flying around the local area finds that the visibility has reduced to below the 10km requirement for the Special VFR? Hmmm... not many airports outside controlled airspace are open at night.

So I would most definately say it is very wise and sensible to obtain an IMC rating before a Night Qualification.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[topcat450]

It was a good question about the 3 clicks on the mic to operate the lights.

Does anyone know why this isn't used more often in the UK? It would be damned handy for anyone that can fly at night as the no. if airfields available rapidly dissappears at sunset.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Never ever seen PAL available at a UK airfield. Shame.

WWW

[Aerobatic Flyer]

Does anyone know why this isn't used more often in the UK? It would be damned handy for anyone that can fly at night as the no. if airfields available rapidly dissappears at sunset.

Don't know, and yes it would. My home airfield in France has it - you need to click 7 times (or more often, 14 times 'cos it doesn't always work the first time....).

Unfortunately I'm not qualified to use it at night.... :(

Which brings me to a question. Can I be taught night flying by a French JAA instructor, given that I have a UK CAA PPL - but live in France? I don't want the hassle of converting my CAA licence, and can't spare the time to come back to the UK to train there.

Thanks, AF.

[S-Works]

There are a number of pilot operated lighting strips in the UK, Spanhoe is one that comes straight to mind. they are mostly on the small strips and are unsurprisingly popular on farm strips.

I have used them a number of times, 7 clicks on the POL frequency and the lights come on for 30 minutes.

It is a shame some of the bigger airfields don't have them. But I guess if there is no one there to operate the lights then there is no one there to collect the landing fee!!!

I agree that an IMC is a benefit for XC flying at night but for local flight just experiancing the sheer fun of being airborne at night the basic 5 hour hourse is enough When I did my rating orginally I did the night first and enjoyed many hours of cruising around the local area. Having flown a good number of landaway cross countries I have encountered cloud on many occassions in which case being able to instrument fly proves invaluable.

[Genghis the Engineer]

So far as I'm aware, changing your UK to a JAA license is just a paperwork exercise, at which point you can just add a JAR rating to it.

Or is that too simple?

G

[Deano777]

Hi CZ

Thanks for the reply mate, do you need a certain number of hrs before commencing the night rating as with the 70 hrs needed PIC to start the IMC? I have a PPL and have 60 hrs TT but whilst I am still consolidating everything I have learnt in my training I would like to move onto other things when I feel the time is right.
I havent got a copy of LAZORS to hand so I thought someone would know this without looking it up

Thanks :ok:

Dean.

[Fly Stimulator]

Deano777,

Good news - LASORS Section E (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf) is online!
do you need a certain number of hrs before commencing the night rating No - you can do the night qualification as part of your initial 45 hours training.
as with the 70 hrs needed PIC to start the IMCYou don't need 70 hours PIC to start the IMC training! All you need is 25 hours after licence issue, which can include the 15 hours (or however long it takes you) for the IMC course itself. This is also in Section E.

[RodgerF]

Nope, there are no minimum hours now

Its all here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Lasors_Section_E.pdf

Where did you get the 70 hours PIC from before starting the IMC.

On application you just need 25 hours post PPL to include 10 hours PIC. The balance can be the IMC training course itself. Its all in the above link.

[Deano777]

my CFI told me, when I passed my skills test I asked him my next steps (which I knew, I just wanted some good advice) he said to hr build in the states, I said what about my IMC and he replied you need 70 hrs PIC, I questioned him as to whether this meant 70 hrs TT and he said no it must be PIC, I was a tad disappointed to hear this but I am now so very glad you cleared that up for me :D, I have bought all my IMC books in preperation so it looks like full steam ahead :D :ok:

Cheers guys

Dean

[Fly Stimulator]

Some CFIs do say the strangest things! :rolleyes:

Perhaps he just meant that it would be a good idea to build up some general flying and handling experience before starting the IMC. That's not bad advice at all, but there is no legal requirement to wait until any particular number of hours.

[Evo]

70 hours PIC is the requirement for a MEP rating, isn't it? Maybe he got confused :)

[Cusco]

I did the IMC very soon after acquiring my PPL and frankly, although I did it in the UK many years ago in a concentrated course over 9 days I found it quite taxing.

I would agree that a sound flying ability is essential before attempting the IMC: my problem was altitude keeping, while bouncing aroung in genuine IMC in a particularyl sh*tty March many years ago.

However I was pretty old when I took up flying so perhaps you youngsters wouldn't have such trouble!

Bose-x.

You've got me thinking about lights at strips: Do you or any ppruners have a contact number for Spanhoe or indeed any outfit in UK which has (recently) installed Pilot operated lights?

TIA

Safe flying

Cusco.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Dean,

As Fly Stimulator says you can obtain Night Qualification at the same time as your JAA PPL so yes you can obtain it before your IMC Rating.

Incidentially we're lucky we've got the option to do the Night Qualification at the same time as the JAA PPL or not. The Americans, unless they live in Alaska (FAR 61.110), have to do the night flight training before they can even take their PPL Checkride.

Anyway we're talking about the JAA system here.

As for the 70 Hours PIC before the IMC, that isn't the case. You require 10 Hours PIC which has been gained since the date of application for your PPL. However this 10 Hour PIC can be gained before, after or during IMC training. You will not however be able to have the IMC Rating issued by the CAA until you have the 10 Hours PIC.

The 70 Hours PIC requirement is for the Multi Engine Rating. If you were to go for a Multi Engine Rating, it maybe a good idea to do some flying in a complex single during those 70 Hours PIC. It'll make life a little easier when it comes to the Multi Engine flight training course.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Deano777]

Hi CZ

In some ways I wish the CAA adopted the JAA system which makes it madatory to do the night training before issue of the PPL, the CFI did say it would be better to do the IMC on a more complex single to make conversion easier as you stated, they have just bought an Arrow III Turbo so this maybe an option, he said it would be more stable than the Warriors currently used which would be good, I am dying to do the night rating, but if only my FTO would let me do it before issue of the IMC :(

Anyway thanks a million for the advice etc :ok:

Dean :)

[redsnail]

Night flying is great fun. Radio is usually a lot quieter and generally it's much smoother.
A couple of things to remember/consider. Take a bit more time out to look at the forecast and Metars. Note if the temperatures quoted are the same or close together. This means that there is a very good chance of the vis falling. Note when the tempo's are for and add a decent buffer to them. The vis can be hampered at dawn/dusk when there's just enough light to see but it can mask the runway lights if it's a bit misty/foggy. (That has happened to me).
Make sure you do carry enough fuel to go to an alternate as well. (I know legally you have to but keep an eye on it as that field may go "under" regarding the wx too).
If you have a spare moment when you are flying, listen out on the atis's and volmets to keep yourself in the picture as to how the wx is going.
Carry a spare torch and make sure it's working too.
Enjoy. :D