The Quality of your Instruction…

[The Phoenix Rises]

I am getting on with my PPL training (I have two Instructors at the club btw), but I have had several things happen which have made me wonder whether I am receiving the best tuition I could get. I thought I would share a couple of these with you folks to see whether this sits well with your own experiences.

1. My first solo was one circuit. My second solo a few days later was about 10 circuits. Then, I was sent out by Instructor #2 on a 50 mile solo navigation in what I now think was highly questionable weather. As I flew towards the first point, the weather closed in behind me and I could no longer see the airport. Ahead was appalling cloud and rain. So I aborted, couldn’t turn back and so headed towards the only clear bit of sky I could see, which was North of the area of the second navigation point. I had little idea of exactly where I was. I was getting quite a buffeting throughout too. I circled for about 15 minutes, hoping the weather would clear. It shifted slightly and I could then see the second town, and headed towards it. As I flew over it and then south, the weather became bad again, with rain, very low cloud, lightning flashes just above me and heavy thunder - in fact I had the distinct feeling the lightning was being aimed directly at me. As I got away from it I could just see where the airfield should be, headed towards it and landed. I was a little shaken inside.

2. I was recently sent on my XCQ. It was a very clear day, although with a strong cross-wind at my home runway which also meant a heavy cross-wind at the two away runways. I landed at the first airfield after making a silly mistake and turning onto base too soon (but then I was by then on a very extended downwind - traffic was heavy; also I am not sure they knew I was a Student Pilot (although they had been telephoned), not that that should necessarily have mattered of course). So I got ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship; ‘Good’ for the landing. On my second leg, I got a little lost en route, but got back on track again; and by this time the runway in use at the second airfield had changed to the opposite direction as the wind had shifted. But I couldn’t find the airfield and flew past it. It would have helped if I had been taught how to use the ADF and the VOR/DME. But I had no knowledge of any navigation equipment at all. I was given a QDM by the ATC but at that time I had no idea what it meant. In the end, the ATC ended up saying things like ‘fly a heading of 3 o’clock’ and so eventually I got there and landed. I was given ‘Satisfactory’ for airmanship and ‘Good’ for the landing. So I passed; but hardly at the standard I would have liked. When I got back, the Instructor #2 who had sent me on the XCQ was very surprised to learn that I had never been on a fly-away before and so had never done a solo landing at another airfield. A week or so later, #1 was talking to me and was saying about how I must push on for the XCQ, and so was pretty surprised (and pleased, it’s true) to learn that I had done it already and got it.

I had not been told I should be getting the written exams under my belt during the flying training, and in fact was not directed to do any at all. I think this is a mistake; at least I would have known about some navigation equipment. I have, now, recently done two written exams, HPL and Air Law, and got 100% for both. I am not stupid, and actually can fly pretty satisfactorily I guess as students go; but I sort of approached this business of learning with the attitude of ‘they are the tutors, I am the student, I am totally under their wing/s, I trust them, they know what they are doing and I will follow and do what they guide me to do’. Well, with hindsight, I am not convinced this was smart. I don’t think I should ever have been sent up on that first short solo nav flight in those weather conditions; and I certainly think I shouldn’t have been sent on my solo XCQ - as a navigation flight - without a) having landed on my own at at least one other airfield, and b) without having been trained in the use of the navigation equipment on board.

There are a few other things as well which I won’t go into. But I wonder whether all this amounts to a high standard of tuition? Certainly #1 likes things done in a different way to #2. It seems to me that a bit of co-ordination between them as well might help.

Do you folks feel this is normal tuition and these things happen all the time? And, of course I would be very interested to hear of any of your own experiences about your tuition.

The Phoenix

[kissmysquirrel]

sounds to me like a couple of things have gone wrong here.
1/. A severe lack of quality, basic, instruction.
2/. No student notes kept for the instructors to refer to.
3/. Hour building instructors who just don't give a s**t maybe?
4/. Poor management by the CFI

Change schools and get what you're paying for! Don't accept second rate instruction.


Having read through this post twice now I get the feeling it's a wind-up but in reality, this kind of thing does go on. For people learning to fly, the instructor has to remember what he /she was like when first learning to fly. The instructor was right, whatever he said. At least that's what we all thought because we didn't know any different.
Get the exams done sooner rather than later.
Ask questions. Ask any other students. Do your homework or one day, the lightning might be real and the outcome not so pleasant.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi kissmysquirrel:

A wind-up? You mean you think this is a joke??!

No. It really isn't. And the lightning and thunder were very real.

I think that's the point, when you say "we didn't know any different". One doesn't, and it is all a bit mind boggling when you start to learn. So you trust your instructor/s. Your points 1, 3 and 4 would seem to be pretty much on the mark, I would think. There are notes, I have seen the cabinet, but one wonders whether they are ever consulted. As for changing schools, that would mean changing airports and so that would be more distance...

Thanks for your reply. I conclude you would describe this as 'second rate instruction' as you say. That's what I was thinking; but I had no terms of reference.

TP

PS: Looking at my own posting again I can see how you might have thought it was a joke. The Sourcerer's Apprentice rather springs to mind...

PPS: Looks like everyone else thinks this is a wind-up too...

[IO540]

The Phoenix Rises

What you describe is pretty normal and I've experienced much worse myself. The standard of instruction is even more variable than the standard of the aircraft.

It is also true that PPL-level navigation (reading ground features) is not actually much good for real getting about the UK. VOR/DME is necessary, and in practice most people use that with a GPS as primary nav.

But then you've got to remember that the school's interest is in getting money off you. The longer it takes you the better (I am not suggesting that instructors are deliberately stretching your hours to make more money although I have known a very obvious case of this with an instructor and some very gullible students, which half my airfield was aware of too) and once you get your PPL they really have no interest in you whatever, except possibly to take more money for a night or IMCR.

Unfortunately, the PPL training world is geared up for the great majority of people - who drop out of flying very quickly after they get their PPL.

Get your PPL, get your IMCR, get your own plane, perhaps later get an FAA PPL/IR and put the plane on the N register, and don't look back (I guarantee you won't) :O

[Tall_guy_in_a_152]

Switching between two instructors on a regular basis sounds like a bad idea to me. Continuity is key and you have obviously suffered from a lack of it. Flying with different instructors from time to time is generally a very good thing, because you will learn that there are different ways of doing things and you can pick the one that works best for you. You will have plenty of opportunity for this post-PPL (check rides etc).

It sounds like you flew solo before passing your Air Law exam. I think that is illegal (?).

I think you should either pick one of your instructors to complete the course or switch schools, if that is a viable option. You can search pprune for several debates about switching schools.

Atleast you survived your difficult flights and I am sure they were a useful learning experience.

TallGuy

[bar shaker]

I'm amazed that you were allowed out of circuit without having passed Air Law, Nav and Met, let alone being sent on a cross country.

But... when you rang, you were given the destination weather (you did ask, right?). You then discussed the trip with your instructor and he checked your flight plan. If it was legal and your instructor thought you were up to it, it was your decision to go. However, ask yourself what you would have done if the weather had deteriorated further!!

Students on QXC should identify themselves as such to ATC when approaching their destination field. It lets ATC watch your approach and landing, it also means they can give you a slightly bigger hole in the circuit traffic, should you need it.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi IO540:

Nice to hear from you!

Don't get me started on the aircraft they put me in...!

I appreciate the comments, and I do wonder about the money element... Remember my other thread about buying a plane, and the £3.5k finder's/checking fee?

I completely agree with your last para - here's to it!

TP

[kissmysquirrel]

Sorry for thinking it was a wind-up but when you read about a solo student going off and flying in thunder/lightning etc you wonder if someone is just making stuff up to illicit a certain response. You were lucky. Next time, get the CFI to check the MET with you before any flight as the two instructors(hopefully one wasn't the CFI) you have flown with, obviously don't have any concerns for your safety.
You could always bring the old chestnut of "Duty of Care" up with them one day. Ask them if they are well insured for the day a students family sues them after a fatal accident.
I've probably opened a whole pot of eels here.
Fly safe and get the most from your training.

[In Altissimus]

TPR,

I was saddened to read your post. I thought that kind of thing only happened to me during my so-called 'training'. I expect if you search the grimy bowels of PPRuNe you'll find several posts from me in a similar vein...

In the end I had to change school - and I can't tell you how big the difference was, and how quickly I was retrained and passed.

It continues to amaze me that the CAA don't chase up this kind of thing - it would do more to raise standards than any of their 'safety initiatives'.

You know, I've been through several Piper and Cessna POH's, and I still can't find the little box where we deposit our common-sense when we get the plane with an instructor :rolleyes:

Take a step back - and sort it out. Remember, it's supposed to be fun and rewarding :ok:

Good Luck.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Tall Guy:

Yes, I think that’s good advice, and I think I should do that. I certainly went solo before the Air Law, and also for my solo nav (#1 in my opening posting above). I did have Air Law and HPL by the time of the QXC. As I say, certainly not the Nav - I hadn't even read the book.

As for the learning experience - well, the up side is that I think I learned far more from the experiences I actually had than I would from all going very smoothly. It just didn’t feel so good at the time!

TP



Hi bar shaker:

For the short nav (#1 above) no phone calls were made. There were no landings and the Instructor did not suggest or make any calls. The best advice I got over if the weather deteriorated was “turn round and come back”. Well, of course when I turned behind, the weather had closed over the airfield, as I wrote.

On your last para, that’s a pretty sore point with me. I specifically asked my Instructor before I left for the flight should I not identify myself on R/T to the ATC as a Student Pilot on QXC, and I was told no, that they would know this from the prior tel call. It would appear that what happened, of course, was that the airfield was so busy just at the time I arrived that the ATC missed that I was an SP. He was tearing someone off a strip as I reached the VRP for not reading instructions back, and then later for 2 people (a/c) talking at the same time; I was asked how I would like to join, meaning I did not have to join overhead (which I had firmly planted in my mind as how I would do this) and I guess this threw me just a little too! But then, after my return, the Instructor said it was clear from the details of my flight that the ATC didn’t realise I was an SP and that - from now on - they would instruct all subsequent SPs on QXC to identify themselves on R/T as such to ATC. Great for others following. Pretty poor show for me, I think.

TP

[Timothy]

There is another side to this coin. I have been closely involved with a student learning over the last year, and he has been totally cossetted, told that he cannot fly when the cloud base is less than 3000' (despite the 2500' TMA round these parts) or when the wind is more than about 12kts.

The trouble is that he has now qualified, and can legally scud run through controlled airspace, having never done either in his training. He has a PPL, yet I have to take him in hand and teach him how to fly.

I do sympathise with the Phoenix (though he does have the advantage over the rest of us that if he does crash and burn he will rise again from the ashes :}) that to be sent out as a very inexperienced tyro into CBs and TSs is criminal, but at least he now knows that adverse weather is survivable if you keep your cool (as he seems to have done admirably) and he will probably end up a more competent and safer pilot than one who has been wrapped in cotton wool for training and then suddenly kicked out of the nest.

W

[VFR800]

You have my sympathies, I would suggest you change school, but as you seem to be quite near the end of your training, this may not be feasible.

When are schhols going to get a bit more businesslike and develope some customer care ! We all pay a lot to fly and I think we deserve a lot better service from FTO's.

On the other hand, I know some 'hours' building instructors who are a joy to fly with and their instruction is excellent and some schools re very good, so I don't want to be accused of tarring them all with same brush ! :)

[Whirlybird]

What appears to me the worst aspect of this is the apparent complete lack of communication between the two instructors, or incomplete student records, so that neither knew what you had or hadn't done. Even if the records are incomplete, it doesn't take a moment to ASK you if you've done the exams, how much solo flying you've done, etc. It sounds like total incompetence on that kind of level. Unfortunately it's not unusual. The PPL course tends to be a DIY course to a certain extent for many of us, and it shouldn't be!!! I'd suggest changing schools, but you sound as though you're so near finishing anyway that it's not worth it. So do some research yourself, find out what you don't know, and make sure you learn it. You sound like you're doing fine IN SPITE of poor instruction.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi again kissmysquirrel:

No probs! I’m glad it seemed a pretty laughable experience, although as I’ve already said it wasn’t so at the time.

It was the #2 that sent me on these trips, not the CFI (my #1), but as I understand it is is his responsibility to oversee the other instructors, and the ultimate fault lies there. I think they don’t display enough concern for safety. I might take it up with them next time. On the other hand, who likes to make waves…



Hi Altissimus:

Gee, sorry you had similar experiences, and I will search and see what I can find in the archives. I don’t think I can change schools now, but sticking with one instructor seems the next best idea. Doesn’t the CAA have any monitoring of schools? They must do, surely…?

I bet the 2 PA28s that I fly at the school probably did each have a box… but that the bottoms have rotted away and fallen out with age, and all notes lost to the elements…(!)



Hi WCollins:

Excellent!! However, The Phoenix has just risen from the ashes (after the big D!) and so I have another 600 years or so to go before I get to do that again…!

Yes, your point about being cosseted is well made and well taken. And like I have said somewhere, I am sure the upside is that I have learned more this way…




TP

[tacpot]

the Instructor #2 who had sent me on the XCQ was very surprised to learn that I had never been on a fly-away before and so had never done a solo landing at another airfield

It is actually very common for QXC students to have flown to one airfield but not the other on their QXC. So I am surprised the Instructer was surprised!

For most people their first solo land-away is at the second airfield on the QXC. I'm sure the QXC is deliberately setup this way. It is a test to ensure that you can find the airfield without having an instructor on board. The fact you flew past the airfield is a proof that the test is a valid one! (BTW: I got lost coming back from my second airfield on my QXC - only the excellent visibility allowed me to locate myself again!). So don't get too hung up on the fact that you had not landed at a strange airfield on your own before the QCX; very few people do.

It does appear you have been subject to some very lack instructing. As well as the lack of communication between instructors already commented on by other, it is a significant failure that you have not been trained to use the Radio Navigation Equipment in the aircraft, and not to have been give guidance on how to obtain (and use) a QDM, prior to your QXC.

It is difficult for any school to standardise the approach taken by any two instructors, as teaching styles are bound to vary. But the school should be making an attempt at standardisation - it doesn't sound like your school is. This has to be a bad thing for student progress.

As Whirley says, it sounds like you are doing fine inspite of this school.

At least you will know what to say is someone asks you if you can recommend a flying school...

[MikeeB]

I also thought this was a windup :(

Can't remember all the points, but I've just passed my PPL, and I had 7 different instructors. The school asked me about this, and I said it wasn't a problem, because each had their own way of teaching things, and pointed things out that others didn't etc. This approach does not however suit everybody, infact, I'm probably in the minority, but I was given the choice of *trying* to get the same instructor (or two) for the duration or not caring. I did prefer some to others; and one (due to a later ground based incident) that I no longer wish to fly with.

I had to fly four hours worth of solo circuits before they let me move onto anything else.

I had two navigation trips with two different instructors before they let me out of the circuit on my own. I also had to show (in the air) that I could work the ADF and VOR before they cut me loose.

Any sign of dodgy weather put a stop to all solo proceedings, and one had to, again demonstrate, that you had the knowledge of weather and airfields before doing QXC.

As somebody else mentioned, you also had to pass some of the written exams, and know who to talk to en-route.

Golden rule was, if your not sure, get on the radio and talk to somebody !!!!

Just reading the first post..... I really can't believe that.

[proplover]

I've just read the orginal Phoenix post and my jaw is still resting on the desk!
Personally I believe this school should be reported to the CAA. It is their responsibility AND they have a Duty of Care to safeguard, nurture and develop the student - not expose them to undue and unnecessary risk. Make no mistake - this could well of ended in !tragedy. I'm sure that Phoenix could think of one or two other students who if given the same circumstances might not of survived.
I like MikeeB had a good basis on which to venture forth on a QXC. Whilst the onus is on basic nav skills my training included getting QDM's if ever they were required and the use of a VOR.
Its to your credit in example 1 that you spotted some clear weather and circled (good reason to have your safety margin in your fuel calcs!).
Whilst a Put I to was told to go on a solo XC one day by a young newish instructor (covering for my usual Instructor), I looked around the sky line and thought ' I dont like the look of those big black clouds'. I questioned the wisdom of setting off in such conditions to be told that 'you can't always fly in sunny conditions you know'. I said 'b*gg*r off - its my neck on the line here, you'll be sat in the office with a cup of tea'. He indicatted that I was a Put and really couldn't understand weather yet, stommped off with a 'its up to you what you do then'. I stayed earth bound. Minutes later an instuctor friend of mine landed, how was it I asked? TERRIBLE he replies, that large cloud just fell on him, it was full of ice and hail, - so pleased to be on the ground etc etc. 15 minutes later heavy hail was falling on the airfield. I pointed this out to the eager new flying Instructor in no uncertain manner, reported him to the CFI and refused to be instucted by him ever again. (He was read the riot act by the CFI as the school were proud of there safty record and moved on some 4 weeks later after making a 1st lesson prospective student ill with tight turning).
After I passed my PPL I was doing a check out on a new type, all was going well. The instructor left me after a few ccts with the requirement being 'do 4 solo ccts, watch the weather but currently the wind will keep that big rain cloud away'. I did 1 cct quiet happly, however whilst starting down wind for number 2 I noted that the ATC gave note of a rapiddly changing wind direction and speed. It was now 90 degs to the runway 17kts - the limit of the aircraft!! Although I hadn't reached the full extent of the downwind leg I was already in rain with the vis dropping. Sod this I thought, told ATC I was executing an imediate base leg and why. The vis just dropped away, the ATC put the Rwy lights on as by now the rain was hammering down. By the time I could see the runway I was to high, I thought about going for it but the consequences of shooting off the end were to great. However I could see some light blue of to the NW - sanctury! Told ATC I was overshooting and would head for the NW. As I cleared the runway ATC gave me an option of doing a 180 turn to land on the opposite end. Looked back, the rain had just reached the opposite threshold. This I felt was on, executed a wing over 180 straight on to finals and landed. Half way down the runway I met the rain but who cared! I was on the ground. The ATC gave me a 'Well done and excellent landing' on the RT. My Instuctor came out to meet me, I can still visualise, in bright yellow waterproofs. I'm sure he was more relived than me, he appoligised several times for putting me in that postion. I pointed out that I was a PPL now and that the wind had changed dramatically in less than 2 minutes - but it was nice that he cared.
One final point, it appears to me that the QXC only matters on the circuit and landing. Whilst I was learning one student argued with a Manchester ATC as to her location within the low level route, she was just about to go blundering thru Liverpools Zone, although she was reported to the school, because she apparently met the critera of finding the required airfields and landing ok - she passed!

Gosh, just realised how I've rambled on - Sorry - just reminiscing on the early days

[IO540]

I am amazed your instructor let you go up with "that big rain cloud" nearby - those are often thunderstorms and he ought to have known that one can get big wind changes near to those.

[drauk]

Whilst the instructors were clearly remiss, did you not think to querstion any of this? Being sent off on a navex without having learnt anything about navigation? The forecast and visible poor weather?

[High Wing Drifter]

I've just read the orginal Phoenix post and my jaw is still resting on the desk!
Yeah well, that story is just unbelievable. Quite rediculous. Nearly as bad is that the replies have run to two pages (note to myself: don't bite!)

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi VFR800

I am beginning to wonder whether I should do something about this. I also wonder whether the things that happened to me are known among the powers that be at the club. I doubt it. But, I wonder what the reaction would be if they did know… Customer care? That I’d like to see…




Hi Whirlybird:

Thanks. You are right, there cannot be very good communication between the Instructors; and why don’t they ask me, as you say. I don’t think I could change clubs now. I had no idea that the PPL can be such a DIY, as you put it, but it’s a pretty accurate description now I take a hard look at things.



Hi tacpot:

Lol! Yes, I sure know which school to recommend…

Actually, I have to say I had actually been to both airfields before with my Instructor/s. It just happened that, on this occasion, my QXC, I messed up and couldn’t find the second field - more fool me. But I really do think I should have been taught the Nav equipment. It’s sort of pretty obvious, really, isn’t it? And a I read everyone else’s comments, I get a bit more peeved about it all.



Hi MikeeB:

No, this is all on the level, no wind-up. In a way I wish it were a joke.

The tuition you described sounds much more straightforward and logical, the sort of approach I would so have liked to have been given.



Hi Chipmunk2:

You know what? You’re right. The first flight could easily have ended in tragedy, which was precisely what my sisters said to me later that day. I think perhaps I should say something, at least to the CFI. In fact the more I reflect on things as you folks - far more experienced than I - post your comments the more I feel I was placed in an absurd situation at risk and that, at some time in the future, someone else might be in a similar position and there could well be a ghastly mishap.

The problems I have had really emanate from Instructor #2, although it’s true the CFI (my #1) is ultimately responsible for the other tutors. He himself hasn’t sent me on any dodgy navs. So… I think I will say something now.

I see you have had your own share of nasty ones. When you were learning for your PPL, you knew an instructor and so presumably had an idea of what to expect and what not to expect. I did not, and as I have said before I just placed my faith in the people for whose time I was paying. With hindsight - and what a cheap commodity that always is! - of course I should have said more earlier. As for the second tale you relate, well it sounds like a piece of brilliant handling.

I think the QXC does only assess on circuit and landing. I mentioned I got lost en route to the second airfield. But then, no-one knew where I was anyway…



Hi drauk:

Frankly: no. Why should I? I trusted the Instructors and believed they knew what they were doing.

Having said that, I did query the wisdom of going up for the navex at that time but the Instructor said it would be fine and I bowed to what I believed was greater wisdom and experience. And as for the QXC, I knew how to plot a route but not how to use the nav instruments on board. So, again, no; the Instructor said I could and should do it and so I did.

As I said in my reply to Chipmunk2 above, hindsight is a very cheap commodity. Now that I have some, I won’t be accepting what they say quite so readily any more.




TP

Hi High Wing Drifter:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've just read the orginal Phoenix post and my jaw is still resting on the desk!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah well, that story is just unbelievable. Quite rediculous. Nearly as bad is that the replies have run to two pages (note to myself: don't bite!)

I've lost you. Care to elaborate?

TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Soley in respect to radio navigation I am not a fan of introducing it prior to QXC.

QXC is supposed to ensure you can do the basic act of visual navigation. I would search my students and confiscate GPS devices prior to each solo Navex.

You either do not know how to use radio nav kit or you do know, have been trained and tested and found competent.

A halfway house of having been shown roughly how it all works - its dead simple see.. - is a recipe for disaster. It nearly killed me once so I speak from both sides of the fence.

Had you been trying to use ADF whilst dodging thunderstorms then the outcome would not have been pretty.

Also, not all club/school aircraft have the same or indeed any radio nav kit fitted. It would be inherently dangerous for an instructor to send you out in an aircraft that didn't have a VOR/DME box when you had been covertly relying on such a box to get you safely through your previous solo navex's. Your instructor would not know this.

Hence I am against introducing radionav to basic PPL students prior to a good standard of basic nav having been achieved.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Applies to all levels and spheres of aviation and is a maxim worth remembering at all times.

I also doubt that any instructor would have sent a solo student out on a Navex with thunderstorms in the local area. FI's are paranoid about that particular scenario and I have never ever met one who wasn't and didn't as a result ere on the side of extreme caution.

On what date was it that you flew this navex?

Not knowing the terminology QDM is alarming as is not having passed at least PPL Law.

Cheers

WWW

[Timothy]

PhoenixI've lost you. Care to elaborate? (S)He's saying that you are a liar and that the rest of us are gullible for believing you.

W

[FlyingForFun]

Just skim-read this thread, so apologies if I repeat things others have said - but it definitely sounds like you need to find a new school.

WCollins mentioned that flying in bad weather as a student can be beneficial in that it shows why you shouldn't do it. I agree - one of the most useful lessons I had as a student was when my instructor let me make a go/no-go decision in marginal weather, and I decided to go. I ended up logging a bit of unplanned real instrument time, and that instrument time was in the vicinity of CBs. Extremely unpleasant. Fortunately, I had an instructor with me who was able to get me out of the mess that I'd got myself into (and I'm sure she wouldn't have let me go if she wasn't capable of getting me home safely). I certainly would not want to have done that as a solo student, and I wouldn't have had any respect for an instructor who let me do it.

I also agree with Whirly about the lack of communication. The bad weather story is an example of a bad instructor. The poor communications is an example of a bad school. I had several instructors throughout my training (often when one went on holiday, or was off sick, as well as more permanent changes) and when this happened the new instructor would simply look at my record to see what I'd done. Even if my record wasn't completely up to date, it was only a case of one or two lessons that the new instructor would need to ask me about. Taking this to extremes, a couple of years ago I did a 10-hour aerobatics course, and I don't think I had the same instructor for any two consecutive lessons during this course. This wasn't a problem at all - the school was excellent in its record-keeping, and every time I turned up to a lesson, the instructor knew exactly what I'd done in all my previous lessons, and what I was supposed to be doing next. This is the way it should be - don't accept anything less.

FFF
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[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Wee Weasley Welshman:


I also doubt that any instructor would have sent a solo student out on a Navex with thunderstorms in the local area. FI's are paranoid about that particular scenario and I have never ever met one who wasn't and didn't as a result ere on the side of extreme caution.

On what date was it that you flew this navex?
Well, it’s been a pretty long time since my word was questioned.

However as I am fairly new to this site, as I am to flying, and as you are also a moderator, I shall answer that question with all the implications it carries. If I were in your shoes, and knowing even just the comparatively little I know now, I think I would want to ask the same question. I presume what you want to do is to try to substantiate or rather verify what I have said from the weather at the time etc. I have no problems with that, in fact it makes me even more concerned over the events. In fairness to the club concerned, I will not post the details on this public board, but I am sending you now by pm full details of the flight as per my log book and flight log.

Your posting has made me look back at my log, and I have to correct or qualify a couple of things I said in my #1 Para in the original posting of this thread. First, my second solo flight was not of 10 circuits, but of 4 circuits. I had completed 5 other circuits the same day immediately prior with Instructor #1 on board, he got out and then I did 4 circuits solo. This means that I was sent on this navex with a total solo flying time of 60 minutes, consisting of a total of 5 circuits. Second, the navex consisted of overflying 4 towns not three, and it was the third navigation point that I flew North of and then overflew as described heading south. Third, in all fairness to the Instructor #2, I should say I think that earlier that day I had flown this route with that Instructor on board, and then after a break for about an hour I was sent on the solo to repeat the navex we had just done. I have also found that it was on this day that I had had explained to me the basics of navigation and how to use the CRP-1; indeed, the flight log is half completed in the Instructor’s handwriting, and then mine as I was asked to calculate the HDG and GS for the remaining two legs.

I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did [I] know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’. (Actually, it might have been 6 A-bombs). I had no idea whether that was true at the time, and frankly still don’t, I have yet to read or take Met. Whether the thunder and lightning had started before my navex I cannot say, I am not sure. It had not at the airfield.

With regard to the rest of your comments: GPS, none on board, so it is not relevant. I definitely fell into the category (for the paras #1 & #2) of Not Knowing how to use basic radio nav kit. The term QDM I might have heard previously but certainly didn’t understand what it meant let alone have any ability to use it. Air Law I knew nothing about at the time of the navex in #1 Para above, but I had taken and passed the exam by the time of the QXC. You put over an interesting alternative viewpoint as to the use of radnav equipment prior to completion of QXC, and I am always ready to bow to greater knowledge and experience. But just from my own experiences as related above, I think I now belong in the camp of thinking it is best to know how to use this equipment as soon as possible and certainly for any extended solo navex’s, including the QXC - after all, as has been mentioned earlier, the QXC only takes into account the circuit and landing, not what happens en route.

If I get lost or stuck up there, I want to know exactly how to get myself out of it. So should every other student. IMH - and relatively inexperienced - O.

TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did [I] know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’. (Actually, it might have been 6 A-bombs). I had no idea whether that was true at the time, and frankly still don’t, I have yet to read or take Met. Whether the thunder and lightning had started before my navex I cannot say, I am not sure. It had not at the airfield.

B0ll0cks.

Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs... yeah right.

I don't personally give a toss where you are training or when you alledge all this took place. There is a no chance I nor the CAA is going to spend a single second checking it out.

Doing 5 dual followed by 4 solo circuits sounds pretty thorough to me. Usually I would have done 3 lots of solo circuit exercies before tackling out of circuit work like nav but there are many different syllabuses out there and all of them are flexible.

Repeating a navex solo that has just been done dual is a cautious little baby step - often done when a student is thought to be weak or in need of a confidence booster for some reason.

You shouldn't really be let out of the circuit alone until you know how to obtain a QDM - from 121.5 if nothing else - and can demonstrate the Lost Procedure. Personally I would want you to be able to obtain a RIS as well but thats not always possible. But on the subject of radio aids No NO NO.

On your first, second, third and probably more solo Navexs you should be focussing solely on Lookout, Map, DI, Ground, Stopwatch, Radio, Drills and Log. Thats more than enough for all students to be getting on with.

Trying to fiddle with a VOR or ADF box is not on the agenda AT ALL. Frequently the boxes are different in how they operate. As are the ways in which they present their information. You need to ident the aid in use - do you know morse? Have you got a decode to hand? What is the promulagated range of this aid? Indeed - have you checked the NOTAMs to make sure it is serviceable?

Radio navigation is not some difficult black art. The basics can be taught with a couple of hours in the classroom and a couple of hours in the air performing some set exercises. But to try and use it without having undergone proper training is likely to lead you right up the garden path, into a control zone and on into a mountain somewhere.

Your training might well be below par. It sounds pretty pants to me. Try another school perhaps?

Often the best thing you can do is hire an instructor privately. By which I mean approach one - one who has been doing it a long time and is not connected to your club/school. Offer to hire him for 3 hours of groundschool at whatever rate he thinks suitable - for cash of course. The groundschool can be done at his house, yours, in McDonalds in a spare classroom - anywhere. The purpose of these hours is for him to go through what you have done and what you know.

He will doubtless expose any big gaps or any oddities to the syllabus you have flown. On the back of a fag packet he can draw up a suitable series of exercises that you need to do to sort you out ready for the PPL skills test. You can then take this information back to your chosen school and say I need to do this this and this and why the hell don't I know how to do this this and this yet?

Its no good being passed around from FI to FI at a cheaper end school. Nobody takes responsibility for what you have and have not covered. The buck gets passed. Which is why continuity is so important. Its cock all to do with being taught the same way and everything to do with being seen as WWW's student and if you are pants at the test stage then this will be noted and WWW's career at NotVerySpecial School of Aviation may be limited to the end of this summer.

Thus motivating WWW to make sure everything is covered and that you are taught in a sensible series of building blocks that will stand up the scrutiny of the Skillstest when you are bricking it.

You are the protege of your flying instructor. If you are the harlot product of 10 flying instructors then none will feel embarassed by your poor teaching. If you are the product of one then the embarassment will be acute.

Good luck,

WWW

[In Altissimus]

Blimey WWW - not the most moderate response from a moderator;)

You (WWW) have given me and others some really excellent advice on this forum, but I think it is disingenuous of you to disbelieve the appallingly low standard of instruction that goes on in some places.

One verifiable example from my log book: my QXC was also my first solo landaway, and my first solo navex!

TPR - as WWW says: try another school. Whatever has happened, you have lost faith in your school - so change it. I know from experience that it is no help for people to say "it's not worth it at this late stage of your training" because, quite frankly, you're not at that late a stage; and you won't appreciate that until you go elsewhere.

[tacpot]

An interesting observation from WWW: - Continuety of training is not so important as continuety of responsibility! I suspect WWW's comments, albeit somewhat cynical, are an accurate reflection of human nature in the flying school environment.

A case of "We are who we teach" perhaps? (or "Ye shall know Bloggs by his students")

[Timothy]

A QDM from 121.5?

Wazzat then :confused: Heading for West Drayton? :*

A little more clarity about what a QDM is, how it is measured and provided, compared to the triangulation service offered by D & D might help someone who has already been confused.

W

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi WWW:

I don't get the point you are trying to make.

Why do you want to know when it took place then? If you want to call me a liar, bollocks to you too. I come here seeking advice and some terms of reference. Nothing more. And certainly not gutter rudeness.

What kind of a response is yours, for heaven's sake?

Not the most helpful of replies. And who said anything about involving the CAA?

TP

[Genghis the Engineer]

Grief - calm down folks.

We're mostly aviation professionals in here or aspire to be; in that context checking and having checked everything we do is normal and necessary, it goes on in this bulletin board as well as anybody else (I hope that I'm reasonably well regarded on PPrune for my technical knowledge, yet have been challenged to "prove it" more times than I care to remember - occasionally I've been proven wrong too).

As I posted elsewhere, a week ago a flying school presented me (and I declined to accept) a rental C152 with a lapstrap missing, half the engine cowling fasteners off, a fuel leak into the cockpit and a handful of unwanted screws lying in the back of the aircraft. I've certainly been places where the approved POH (or the tech logs) for an aeroplane seems to be treated as a "privileged access" document and certainly students aren't allowed near it. In that context I've no trouble believing that there are schools whose attitude to training is as poor as it can be to airworthiness - although I've not personally seen anything quite so bad.

What I have seen is schools or clubs who make a lot of attempts to point out to students / renters / members the potential hazards in a proposed flight to allow them to gracefully make the decision to withdraw. It strikes me that pointing out a monstrous CB could have fallen into that bracket, although one would then hope that the student who didn't get the hints would then be "pulled" from the flightline, not allowed to go and risk their neck. I'm also with others in thinking that sending anybody on a QXC without having passed nav, met and air-law is downright irresponsible - albeit possibly a consequence of the mentioned poor record keeping rather than malign intent.

Phoenix should seriously look at changing schools. Equally, I think that if he's not going to be fed it by this or any other school he should be spending time with his nose in the books and asking to take the exams, not waiting to be told what to learn and when. All aviation training involves a fair amount of private study, a PPL is no exception and no aviation student (PPL/ATPL/Engineering/ATC etc.) who can't get the hint and make sure they're up to speed on theory BEFORE they need it ain't going to get very far !

G


N.B. Does anybody remember about 5 years ago a training glider, taking a student up for a trial lesson, being destroyed by a lightning strike out from CB edge less than a mile away. Sorry WWW, but there is at-least one instructor out there that irresponsible.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi G


Phoenix should seriously look at changing schools. Equally, I think that if he's not going to be fed it by this or any other school he should be spending time with his nose in the books and asking to take the exams, not waiting to be told what to learn and when. All aviation training involves a fair amount of private study, a PPL is no exception and no aviation student (PPL/ATPL/Engineering/ATC etc.) who can't get the hint and make sure they're up to speed on theory BEFORE they need it ain't going to get very far !

Thank you.

As for the quote above - this amount I have figured out for myself! My nose is seriously in the books. My CFI wanted me to do 'Aircraft General' next. No way. Guess what? It's Navigation for me next.

TP

[proplover]

Mr WWW - whilst I cant comment on the validity of Pheonix's experiance I can only reitterate what happend to me. I also was told my next lesson was a local solo XC (50 miles total) in what I thought were very marginal conditions. Had I not been involved with other experianced PPL holders for some 2 years prior to that day and seen the decision processes being made by them I to would have proberbly thought that the instructor allocated to me knew better than I. It does happen and its not the first time I've heard of students ending up in risky positions having been sent up solo in obviously changable conditions.

Also the use of QDMs and VORs formed part of my training (2001-2002) and questions on the use of VORs appeared in the written tests. However the build up solo XCs that were carried out were primarily based on standard maps, headings, times etc etc. The aircraft that I did my QXC did not have any electronic nav aids - it was the standard nav basics.

It was I who felt that the CAA should be informed of serious bad decission making that put at risk students lives. I feel the CFI should be informed and in the first instance the matter resolved internally if possible. If its swept under the CFI carpet then the matter needs to be raised to a higher level, the next person that gets sent off in iffy wx may end up comming back in a box. We are all human and make mistakes but unfortunetly mistakes made that cost others do require investigation.

I believe we should indicate to new students a way forward should they be put in the same position.
Should we follow your lead, ignore the problem as if it doesnt occur and wait untill something tragic happens and then go tut tut how terrible and spend hours writting on pprune about how silly it all was?

[Northern Highflyer]

TFR

Sounds like you have got a bad deal. I had a few different instructors to start with but settled on one nearer the end. As many others have said, I had a good knowledge base before going off on my QXC, having done 4 previous solo navex trips including a land away.

That said though, during my skills test I was asked to perform a short field landing. I told the examiner I hadn't been shown one before. Different instructors or poorly written notes ? Not sure which was to blame but I hadn't done one before. The examiner explained it to me, I followed what he said and all was well, a successful short field landing and I passed.

Now about to start my IMCR but with a different instructor. The reason being that I felt my PPL instruction wasn't as thorough as it should have been, and the instructor I want to fly for my IMCR with is quite strict, which I feel I need for this next step. My PPL instructor found out, called me up and asked why I wasn't doing it with him. I explained my reasons and he made a comment about having "wasted his money" (he has just qualified to teach IMC) and that I had said I would "do it with him", which I don't recall.

I always enjoyed his instructing during my PPL but because I want to vary my training to see how others instruct I am being made to feel awkward by this individual. To blame me for him spending money on his IMC certificate is at best unfair.

All I can say is do what I am doing, get the best training you can, and if that means changing instructors / schools then do so.

[Whirlybird]

Discussions of whether what someone says is true or false are unhelpful. I prefer to treat everything as true, because it might be, and if it is, the person needs help. If it's not, and Whirly is a gullible idiot, so what?

Phoenix, this is PPRuNe, and sometimes people lie, so don't get too upset. Some of your story does sound incredible. I happen to believe you, because I had some incredibly bad experiences early on in my training, and I've heard of even worse ones. Perhaps the thunderstorms weren't forecast. It happens. I remember several of us trying to get back to Welshpool ahead of a scary and unforecast thunderstorm.

On the radio nav issue...pre-JAR, which was only a few years ago, radio nav aids were not part of the PPL syllabus. We all did our QXC without using them. I still rarely use them, and I've flown all over the UK, done the Dawn to Dusk twice, flown to Ireland and in the US, practically always using basic visual navigation. I agree with WWW that you should be proficient in that, and shouldn't need more for your QXC.

I understand your trusting your instructors and not questioning their judgement. We all do that, and you have to. I think those who question that have forgotten what it's like to be a student. Knowing WHEN to fly is much harder than knowing HOW to fly - but we expect instructors to tell us. OTOH, weather can always change, and you should always be prepared to come back or divert if you don't like it. I'm not saying you did wrong, just emphasising how it should be done.

One other point, which I found out after getting my PPL(H); it's very hard to know what you don't know. If your training has been incomplete, you rarely know all that's been missed out, and it's often rather nebulous things like airmanship points. I rather agree with WWW - at some point, find an instructor you trust, tell him/her the whole story, and go over things and try to make sure there are no gaps in your knowledge. It'll be money well spent I assure you. Whether you do it now - probably best - or leave it till after you get your PPL is up to you...but I did something like that and I wish I'd done it earlier!

[drauk]

The Phoenix Rises wrote: In fairness to the club concerned, I will not post the details on this public board

Why not? What is unfair about naming the place where you did your training? You've not even said you think they are that bad (i.e. a very subjective opinion), just the facts of what took place.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What could motivate an instructor to send his young charge off into the wilderness whilst commenting on the visible CBs? They are not getting paid for the solo flight. They do stand to loose their job and be prosecuted if you end up dead. Just like happened to a FI in PIK whose idiot student killed himself by not following the solo rules. A prosecution followed. I doubt there is an FI in the land unaware of that development.

Given that context the scenario as thinly described is not credible.

Having been a student pilot then an instructor and having taught under the auspices of a military school, a small private cheap school and a big corporate commercial school I understand that there are both poor students and poor teachers out there. For every story there are usually two sides.

A lot of people who engage on flight training end up having an overall bad experience. Probably the majority. Certainly most PPL's have lapsed after 5 years and only a small minority go on to any higher level or pursue anything more than a tootal around the local area. Whirlybird being a glorious exceptiont to the rule.

I make no apologies for my posting style. I kick up a whole heck of fuss on many threads with the intent of illustrating a wider point or putting some life back into a debate. Its nothing personal Phoenix and I wish you the best of luck with your future flying.

Cheers


WWW

[The Phoenix Rises]

WWW

I am not going to debate this with you any more. If you choose not to believe me, then more fool you. Calling me a liar is extremely personal, actually. You have insulted me, and I take exception to it.

Your ‘posting style’ is pompous and nothing short of arrogant. and you have contributed little or nothing of value here in this thread. Feel free to post no other replies to any of my other threads - I will not miss them.

There are many here who have contributed in a very positive way, and now that I have an idea of other standards I have decided to take the matter up with the CFI at the school as a first step. Thanks to those others here, perhaps this will result in safeguarding some other future student at this particular school. I appreciate their input.

You can stuff your good wishes. I really don't want them, and I certainly don't need them.

TP

[IO540]

At the airfield I did my training, an instructor does get paid while
sending off a student PPL on a solo flight.

Such a flight is done on the instructor's license/insurance. So the
hourly rate the student pays is the same as if the instructor was on
board.

One instructor told me once how he made £200 on one particular
(unusual) day when he sent several students on solo flights, without
him doing any flying at all.

But I agree that instructors tend to err on the side of caution -
usually to an extent which would make any outsider wonder what
possible use a PPL is going to be... more than 3 clouds in the sky and
you can't fly...

[Tiger_ Moth]

I received the finest flying instruction known to mankind.

[Whirlybird]

WWW,
What the hell is going on with you? Distrust, resignation, despair, cynicism, all in a couple of posts!! I KNOW you're a nice guy, at least some people thought you were a good instructor once, and you used to make some good points on threads. But if you're making any point at all here, I missed it too. :confused: :confused: :confused: Saying most people have a bad time learning to fly is not enough. If they do, that needs changing, not just being resigned to it. There are some lousy instructors out there, some good ones, and some fantastic ones. I've met a fair few of every type. I know which I want to be. The difficult thing for a student is recognising which is which, especially in the beginning.

I was "rescued" after a horrendous start to my PPL(A) course (which most of PPRuNe has heard enough about), by an instructor who was determined not to just turn me into a pilot, but a good one. He refused to accept second best, either in me OR IN HIMSELF. Most of us, instructors, PPLs, and students, could learn from that attitude.

Oh, by the way WWW, I do rather like being called a "glorious exception"; thankyou. ;)

[Circuit Basher]

WWW - I've stood on the margins of this thread, feeling sympathy for Phoenix as I, too, had some pretty poor management of the second part of my PPL training (having done the first half in Canada, which was well managed, I returned to UK). I feel that whilst your posts of 7 Oct 03 0310 and 1207 were hardly inducing a feelgood factor for a student PPL who's already had his confidence severely dented.

Yes, you may be an experienced instructor.
Yes, you may find the story difficult to believe.
Yes, you may have had a bad day.
Yes, it may be your usual posting style.
Yes, I agree, a student PPL needs to be exposed to some of the harsh realities that he/she may face in the real world of aviation.
Yes, you may be a moderator.

However, IMHO, from a CRM / HF point of view, on this thread, your tone stinks.

Sorry - not being personal, but feel that some winding in of necks, chill pills and recovery of teddies into prams might be appropriate until the pills take effect.

I am not personally involved or specifically acquainted with any of the posters on this thread, so am just going by what I see on the screen.

(smilies deliberately omitted).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I am distrusting that an instructor would cheerfully send off their student whilst pointing to the local CBs.

I am resigned to the fact that most PPL's lapse within 5 years.

I despair of the poor quality of instruction you can find out there.

I am cynical by nature and with regard to aviation training this has stood me in good stead.

Phoenix Rises - stop being precious. I never called you a liar. I asked when this event occurred - just out of curiosity as to what the weather may actually have been like that day. Could have been isolated CB day or a mid August thunderstorm strewn sky. Big difference.

Feel free to stuff my good wishes wherever is your personal preference.

Cheers,

WWW


---------------------------------
Circuit Basher posts
---------------------------------


Circuit basher - it was never my intent to provide a feelgood factor nor is CRM relvant here - this is an internet discussion forum and nothing more.

On Private Flying there is naturally an esprit d'corps that biases every thread towards the poor old student - to the detriment of the slack hour building instructors and greedy lying school owners. OK - thats the nature of the forum and fair enough.

I am not one who will virtually by default believe everything written here. If something sounds improbable I'll wade in with my size 9's and make no apology for that. I still DON'T BELIEVE that PR's instructor knowingly and cheerfully sent him off solo into a hazardous CB environment. I DON'T BELIEVE it.

I can understand that may be his perception but if so it must be wrong.

As a FI you have a legal duty of care to your student. FI's have and do get prosecuted if a student ends of dead or injured. I know FI's who have faced trials and believe me its quite scary to have your fate balanced by 12 people and a judge who know NOTHING about aviation or normal flight training procedures.

You can go to jail for manslaughter for sending a student off into innapropriate weather. This happened to a Prestwick instructor who was entirely blameless and totally professional. Nonetheless he seriously had to consider going to prison.

With that backdrop FI's are exceedingly cautious about weather conditions - particularly for early solo exercises.

Which is why I DON'T BELIEVE some of the things described by the instigator of this thread.

I'm not getting angry and don't need a chill pill. This is, after all, only a silly little online discussion between a few people who will never meet and are constricted by the very limiting medium of text based conversation.

I offered Mr Rises the advice of seeking a few ground hours with an independent FI to ascertain just what he has missed out on in his training to date. I believe that to be good advice. So armed he could set about his training provider to ensure that he is adequately prepared for his skilltest. I also advised him that trying another school should be considered.

Don't feel that me being a Moderator on another forum or me being a somewhat retired FI gives me a fig of authority or duty to be Mr Nice. Feel free to call me all the names under the sun and castigate everything I say for the rubbish no doubt some of it is. Thats what PPRuNe is all about. Anything else would be horribly sterile and not half as popular. ;)

Cheers

WWW

[Whirlybird]

OK, WWW, that is all well put and makes some good points, whether or not any of us choose to agree with them. I suspect that if you'd posted like that in the first place there wouldn't have been so many people thinking you were out of order.

On sending a student off solo with CBs around...

As you say, it could have been an isolated one which the instructor was sensibly pointing out. The wx could then have got worse, unexpectedly and unforecast. It's possible.

On the other hand...

I have heard of one flying school owner (no longer around, I believe), who used to INSIST on having his aircraft flying all the time if humanly possible. I've heard stories - and I personally trust their source - of instructors being told by him to send students out in unsuitable weather, on pain of dismissal. I'd accept the dismissal...but I'm not thousands of pounds in debt with a family, and some instructors are. I heard of one solo student who got lost in low cloud and rain, and found and led back by this owner, and according to the person who told me, it was a miracle the person was found.

True or false? I don't know; I wasn't around at the time. I'm spreading rumours - but note this is the Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network, so I can. The point is, it COULD happen. ANYONE can start and run a flying school. So did that happen in Phoenix's case? Who knows? Students need to be careful, and perhaps WWW's cynicism is sensible.

Just to get things in balance, I've been around a bit and the majority of flying school owners and instructors I've met are caring, hardworking, and doing their best at a difficult job. But not all!!!!

[The Phoenix Rises]

Folks - I am travelling for a couple of more days and will reply to each of you when I am back hopefully Friday.

However, what I shall quickly say now is:


a) A huge thank you for the input on this thread, I cannot tell you how much it is appreciated.

b) WWW: As you have reared your head again here - I am not precious, but you could stop being an A.H. Incidentally - you had all the details of the flight via my pm (which I wish I had never bothered to send), so what did you find on that day on that route? Clear skies and unlimited viability? I think not. Yet I see you have dodged that. And: of course you have called me a liar. If you think you haven't, your instructions to your former students must have been as unclear as your other comments here.


TP

[Aussie Andy]

WWW says:I can understand that may be his perception but if so it must be wrong.I don't believe everything I read, and I know great instructors whom I have a lot of respect for. I have also come across students who exagerate. But that doesn't mean its always so...

I think its OK to question the facts, but how can you be so sure that what Phoenix says "must be wrong"?!? Seems like you have the same bias you accuse others of, only in reverse?

On the case in point, I like everyone else have been shocked at the story - and I hope to God its not true... but if it is, then maybe it should be brought to the attention of appropriate authorities, and now that Phoenix has been able to confirm that what he says happened shouldn't happen, then he might be prepared to do so.

This forum cannot be judge or jury for EITHER side of the argument... in that respect I agree with WWW that there can sometimes be a bit too much bias in the "poor students" direction. We just all need to be calm balanced and intelligent people! :8

Happy flying one and all :O,

Andy

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Look Phoenix. So far you have come to PPRuNe and got up some BA pilots noses ending in a girly hair pulling fest:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=952292#post952292

We've just had a nice girly hair pulling fest here ourselves. Try not to turn these two events into a trend line...

I once had a student - a mature businessman - who suddenly got the aviation bug. Whirly probably remembers him. Complete pain in the backside with a lot of cash, a lot of distractions and not much aptitude. He too spent an inordinant amount of time pontificating about just which flash £££,£££ aircraft he was going to buy for his business travels.

He too knew next to nothing about self flown business travel or could tell a Cessna from a Piper at 20 paces. Last I heard he had bought a right nail and had made some fairly major infractions on an impossibly ambitious flight to Schipol. He was a walking liability with a pile of cash.

He was also very difficult to train. Hated this or that instructor for no apparent reason, didn't like doing this or that exercise, was bored with this or that lecture. Took him ages to qualify and he whinged all the way whilst fellow coursemates sailed on making good progress from steady application under the same instructors in the same aircraft. I caught him cheating with a GPS unit on navexs for an example of his attitude.


Phoenix - I am not rearing my head as I never ducked it away. You can ask me to stop replying and flounce off if you want to but I may take no notice. You are precious and quick to fire off the insults and take aggrievance believing people are calling you a liar. I'm not dodging the facts of the weather on your day - you sent me the details and I found it was really difficult to check historical weather records. Thats all - thought it might have been easy to do but its not.

The fact remains that I, personally, DO NOT BELIEVE that your FI sent you off on an early solo navex whilst cheerfully admiring the huge local CB's. Its not credible.

My instructions to students were always intended to be a model of clarity. Nevertheless its a suprisingly difficult skill and the ability for a student to interpret an instruction in a new and suprising way is almost boundless.

Cheers

WWW

[dublinpilot]

B :mad: y hell www! Telling tales now? I've no idea how rich Pheonix is, but haven't we all dreamed about owning our own plane?

Compairing Pheonix to your former student, is unhelpful, and unfair. You don't know enough about him/her to make that call. As Whirly said earlier, you should take the story at face value, as if it's true, he needs advise. If it's not, then it's his loss. I for one, believe the jist of the story.



Phoenix Rises - stop being precious. I never called you a liar.

The fact remains that I, personally, DO NOT BELIEVE that your FI sent you off on an early solo navex whilst cheerfully admiring the huge local CB's. Its not credible.

Well, given the above I don't see how anyone could read it as anything other than calling Pheonix a liar.



We've just had a nice girly hair pulling fest here ourselves. Try not to turn these two events into a trend line...

I dare say that it's your comments that have dragged this thread down. And since almost all comments of other users on your post, have been negative, I would think that I'm not alone in believing that.

You did give Phoenix some good advise, in telling him/her to sit down with an instructor (s)he trusts, and to look at another school. Couldn't you have left it at that, and left a benifical post, rather than dragging this whole thread down?

Speaking as someone who is generally a confident person, who once had his flying confidence ruined by one instructor (out of about 10 very good ones), I'm glad I didn't learn to fly with someone with an attitude like yours. I'm sure I'd have given up at the first hurdle.

dp

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Don't extrapolate a contentious bb posting so far - its not valid.

Quick review:

I started off telling this student pilot that he should not get involved with radio nav until he has mastered basic nav. It gets you into all sorts of trouble and is best left to the end.

I did not and do not find credible this posting by Mr Rises:

I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did [I] know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’.

I don't believe an instructor would place his job and his liberty on the line to send Mr Rises solo in a dangerous CB environment.

I have encountered middle aged affluent businessmen learning to fly intending to buy their own large aircraft before. During that previous experience I found that they often embarked on this course of action with little research and then expected to be hand held and spoon fed all the way.

By not being aware that a QXC comes at the end of the syllabus and by not being aware that one generally studies for the PPL exams before or during training; Mr Rises fits into a model in my head based on previous experience.

Thats a side issue and not really germaine to the point of this argument which seems to be Mr Rises is hysterical at having his version of events disbelieved and a lot of other PPLs want to stick up for him as I am a big nasty flying instructor moderator who should be nicer to people.

Sounds like a pants school to me operating a pants syllabus.

Still, Mr Rises ignorance of how a normal PPL course is conducted leads me to place him in a certain category of student.

Cheers

WWW


ps I could of course well be wrong and he's a splendid fellow who will make a superior aviator. I hope this is the case. ;)

[strafer]

WWW,

So you're an FI and a moderator are you? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!

Your postings are more reminiscent of some of the hormonally challenged Kevin's who occasionly pop up on pprune. TPF posts a thread about his experiences as he sees them, you then call him a liar, demand proof (which you later find you're incapable of verifying) tell him he's talking bollocks and now accuse him of 'flouncing' and being 'precious'.

I suspect that he's getting in the neck due to your experiences of other 'bad' students, but as someone posted earlier, a student is often just a reflection of their teacher.

To baldy state that no FI would ever, ever do what TPR claimed is stupid. As most Instructors are human beings they, like all other people, will range from the consistently excellent to the downright negligent.

Grow up, you big baby.

[dublinpilot]

Ok www,

You say you don't believe Phoenix's story. Therefore are you not calling him a liar?


dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

No instructor would send someone off with CB's around. I've known some pretty awful instructors and schools, but not one would ever do that.

As for doing the QXC as the first solo nav, you've got to be kidding me. If it is true, tell us the name of the school so we can get it closed.

There are plenty of 'bad' students out there. Mainly the type of person who learns to fly so they can talk about it. Dinner party pilots as I call them. The instructor ends up working harder than they do, not the object of the exercise, a bit of pre-reading would usually be nice.

All getting a bit heated here though. I am also a bit peeved by the "instructor" bashing that goes on in this forum, so I understand why WWW would get a bit annoyed.

[dublinpilot]

SAS,

The reason for my last post, was because www seems to be critisising pheonix for thinking he was calling him a liar. He seems to think that Pheonix has come up with the strange idea the was being called a liar, when he actually wasn't.

It seems obvious to me that www is calling him a liar, but doesn't want to admit to that.

If he wants to call someone a liar, then he should come out and do it. There is little point in telling someone you don't belive them, but you are not calling them a liar.

dp

[In Altissimus]

SAS,

As for doing the QXC as the first solo nav, you've got to be kidding me. If it is true, tell us the name of the school so we can get it closed.

It is true.

I believe the school in question should be closed - but I've put all that behind me now and am enjoying my flying.

For what it's worth, an Instructor recently posted some of the goings on at that place - the thread was quickly deleted from the Instructors forum...

[Say again s l o w l y]

In Altissimus, I'm gob smacked. That is so far beyond what's acceptable.

Could you please PM me the name of the place. I'd rather not have it posted on a public BB, simply because of the legal implications.

I'm glad you are now enjoying your flying, hopefully somewhere a bit more professional.

[G SXTY]

Blimey, a fully developed ruck - on Private Flying? I thought I was in Wannabes for a minute . . . :)

Happy to report that at EGSG at least, 4 separate instructors were absolutely paranoid about sending me off into anything resembling 'iffy' wx. Not only that; both my first solo land-away and the QXC were preceded by dual trips, to make the solo a bit less intimidating.

No-one was allowed to solo until they'd passed air law, and I was well practised in 121.5 & QDMs before I was let out of the circuit on my own. In fact, so cautious were they that my final hour of solo nav was postponed fourteen times due wx. On one occasion, (on an otherwise beautiful day) my QXC was scrubbed due to a TEMPO giving a 30% chance of CBs at one of my destination airfields.

Overly cautious? Perhaps, but I'm still here and all those 152s have still got 3 wheels.

TPR - WWW has his own, shall we say 'inimitable' style, but if there are one or two raised eyebrows at your story, it's probably because what you describe is so far removed from the experience of many people here. That alone should tell you all you need to know about your school.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Liar would be too strong a word. Incorrect perspective might be better.

I did think it would be possible to find archives of Met date online but when I tried I couldn't. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I tried the Metoffice website.

Shall we all have a hug now and go down the pub?

Cheers

WWW

[BRL]

Well chaps. I am going to give this another 24hrs on the forum.

A great thread has gone downhill in my opinion and it needs to stop now.

If things stay as they are, i.e. take this last page for example, then its definately going in the bin.

If it changes back to the norm then of course it can stay.

Think before you hit the reply button.
This threads future is in your hands now.............. :uhoh:

[greatorex]

Past seven day's weather is available HERE (http://www.tmdg.co.uk/weather/) - but don't know if that helps.

TPR's story is, indeed incredible but sadly, could well be perfectly true (having heard many such horror stories from the young chaps coming through who've worked for flying schools).

I think, TPR, that the advice to move schools ASAP is something that you should consider giving some serious and immediate thought to (I know it's difficult, especially if you’ve "paid up-front") but it does sound as though the training and service that you are getting is well below any expected levels.

WWW does have an excellent point when he says that you may want to consider a 'Private Instructor'. If you vet them well, you'll probably get someone who is a terrific teacher with a great deal of experience and you'll have the benefit of continuity in training.

Conversely, what WCollins says about some people not wanting to fly in anything less than CAVOK is also absolutely true. I’ve spoken to several PPL's who wouldn’t consider flying even if there was the tiniest of a crosswind component. Whilst I would never condone what happened to you, you have had a tremendous experience – made even better by the fact that you managed to walk away from it in one piece :D ;) :D ;) – and that is the best that any of us can hope for. . . .

Do please keep us posted and if you have the time, could you PM me the name of the school (just for curiosity's sake)?

Cheers,

G

[Evo]

Well all I can say is that I hope TPR isn't put off either his PPL or PPRuNe by all this.

I had an excellent instructor during my PPL, and I would recommend the school to anyone. But I headed off on a solo landaway and made it to Shoreham just before a thunderstorm hit (see here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62892) :) ). There was no "Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs" as WWW puts it. We looked at the met, there were PROB30 TSRA on the TAF ... but we decided that it was ok and I could turn around. I went. It happens.

The difference, I think, was that I was able to cope better. Things were as bad as they could have got in my case - had the CBs been closer then i would have turned back before landing, if they were later then i would never have got stuck. TPRs school seems to be the problem here, because it sounds like he was sent off without the experience. However, you cannot call him a liar because he went off solo with crappy weather around. It can happen at the best schools.

TPR, don't go away. PPRuNe is usually better than this...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Nah - this is PPRuNe at its best - a spicy chilli of debate and passionate sparks flying argument. Much better than the semolina we so often get on Private Flying.

Cheers

WWW

[dublinpilot]

TPR

I don't know much about the other forums, as I don't read them. But as Evo said, don't go away. Private Flying forum is usually much friendlier than this thread, and you will find it a very useful place for getting helpful information.

Live you to your name, and rise from the ashes of a bad experience. ;)

dp

[Whirlybird]

BRL,

I really think you should leave this thread. In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW), Phoenix getting outraged at being called a liar (and he was), and various naive people saying it couldn't happen (it could and it does, sadly), a lot of important points are being made. This thread needs to stay.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've retracted the bit about calling Pheonix a liar, but I am still very wary about what the instructor is itimated to have said, no sane individual would ever say it.

Whirly, I wouldn't mind being called naive if it were the case. Having been around many schools and instructors and being an arch cynic, I cannot think of any who would think that acceptable and I've been to some pretty appalling places(Nah.. can't bring myself to name any here) and some fantastic ones (Tiger Heli's for example) and nobody would ever send a student if there were alot of CB's around.

I will agree that the place sounds a shambles and I would suggest that TPR goes else where for his training. A private FI is a very good way of going if you can find a good one. I would like to know the names of places like this, so that I never inadvertantly suggest somebody give them a try.

[BRL]

Hi Whirly. I see what you are saying and you have given me another option for this thread. If it doesn't pick up then I will lock it and leave it. That way it stays around for others to see.

The problem with it, as I see is, that it has degenerated into a cat-fight/spicy argument, whatever one wants to call it and it is not good reading for some. I have left it for a while for the purposes that you rightly state, that there are a lot of important points that are being made, but a quick look at the last page confirms what my point is.

I can say, it might even deter people from reading pprune if every thread was like this. They would simply look elsewhere. I don't want that. You lot have made this into a pretty busy forum, no crap, no real nastiness, no backstabbing and so on and so on. This is why people keep coming back, most of the crap is elsewhere. Have a look at what Evo and Dublinpilot say. That just sums our forum up nicely.

If people want "spicy" arguments then I suggest they take up commercial flying and go to the forum just for them. ;)

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi folks:

Another quick visit, from the hotel room telephone connection.

Thanks for your continued input and comments. One thing I must clarify and correct, though, and straight away: I read just now, on skimming through to keep updated, that someone wrote that my QXC was my first solo nav. This is not correct, it wasn't and I did not say that it was. It was my second - please see original post to this thread. I think whoever it was has perhaps mis-read my posting/s.

You know, whether you believe me or not (and I am very grateful to those who do, which I think seems to be most of you) the important thing here for me is that you think that what occurred to me is pretty astonishing and hence the reason for disbelief. That, in itself - when I step back from the earlier feeling of being a bit miffed - is of great value, since it shows what should not be happening.

I have no intention of leaving PPRuNe, don't worry! You are all, I feel, a good bunch of folks at heart. And, just look at the energy and enthusiasm that you throw at a thread...!

Thanks again, and I'll respond more when I am back at base again.

TP

[Evo]

In between WWW stirring it because he's bored and likes a fight (well, you more or less said that, WWW)


It is sad, because when I first started learning to fly I had a lot of respect for WWW's views. Private Flying was unmoderated back then, and along with a couple of others he used to keep an eye on things in here so we saw a lot of him. He said things as he saw them, but it was constructive and with a lot of helpful advice. When I asked a question and he answered I knew there was something worth reading. Now it seems limited to the occasional troll or flame when he's bored. Sort it out WWW, flying the 737 seems to have gone to your head.

[Whirlybird]

SAS,
Perhaps calling you naive was a trifle over the top; my apologies. I was thinking of a particular flying school, no longer in existence, where I have heard from various different and informed sources that such things did happen, mainly due to an owner who was determined to keep his aircraft flying at all costs. If it can happen once...

BRL,
Point taken; moderate as you see fit.

Evo
I agree with you about WWW. I think he should go and stir things on some other forum, not here. And not for so little reason.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yeah I think I know the one you mean, I heard some frightening things about that place just over the Welsh border. Thankfully it is no longer with us.

It may be nice to have a list and rating system for all flying schools around the country, but I think the legal implications could be daft, but it may help to stop incidents such as the ones described.

[strafer]

BRL - I think (hope) you're in the minority here. I for one am enjoying this thread. We are all big boys and girls here and I don't see anyone leaving pprune in disgust because someone anoymous called another anoymous person a name, or because of a few 'passionate' statements on one thread.

This thread is useful for the orginal poster and entertaining for the rest of us - what more do you want?

PS W3 - Shall we all have a hug now and go down the pub? You can forget the hug, but I'll let you buy the first round!

[BRL]

Strafer. Your comments are noted.

Thank you for your input.

[IO540]

I wonder just what it does take to get a school closed down. Or, for that matter, is it right to actually close a school down? You could have a perfectly good person owning the business and a rogue instructor who does his dodgy stuff outside of anyone's view so the owner has only got rumour to go on. I've seen very dodgy instructors (the sort who do fully developed spins on a trial lesson, coming back with white-faced passengers) stay for years.

I am aware that my comments here are often negative but I've seen so many dodgy practices (poor record-keeping of fuel tank content being just one recently-topical example) that if one was do get strict, more than half of schools would close tomorrow.

[MikeeB]

I still don't agree with not using Radio Nav aids (or knowing how to use them) before doing your QXC.

Of course each school/instructor has different thoughts on this, but I had to fly a triangle using radio nav's before I was allowed to go off on my QXC.

From my own personnal POV, I was very happy about this, as it gave me much needed confidence that I may not have had, should I not have demonstrated to an instructor that I could indeed fly from A to B to C and back to A without looking out the window to get a ground fix.

Quite early on in my navigation exercises, I was also flow to a place (i.e. simulate been lost) by an instructor, then told to pin point my location using radio nav aids and plot a course to somewhere.

At the right school, and with the right instructor(s), they should be able to make the call as to if you are upto the job of using them or not, and at what speed to introduce them into your flying.

I actually cocked up one of my first duel nav exercises, and the instructor asked me the question "do you know how do use VOR's". I said yes, and he said "well use this one to get us home then, since you've cocked your sheet up". (which I did).

I'd much rather learn to fly at a school that teaches you at a pace that matches your capabilities, rather than one that follows a set pattern for each and every student, regardless.

[Whirlybird]

Mikee,

I don't think being up to using navaids is the point. I personally think that the QXC should show to a student that it's possible to fly anywhere using nothing but map and compass. That includes finding yourself again after you've got lost. Too many people, PPLs and instructors included, think it's not possible, or not necessary. It's quite possible, and not difficult; but it requires practice, and if you don't get that practice for your PPL, when will you? Of course navaids, GPS etc are useful too. But you need to be able to cope when your GPS dies, and you're in an area with no VORs etc - and there are lots of those; ever flown in Wales or Scotland?

[G SXTY]

[effects dodgy scouse accent and shouts "caam down, caam down"]

Having a row is dead easy on a bulletin board. Someone goes fishing or throws an ill-judged remark into the debate, someone else bites, everyone takes sides and off we go. That’s one of the downsides of communication on the internet – people have the cloak of anonymity; we cannot see an expression, hear a tone of voice. We can only express ourselves through what we write, and some people are better at it than others.

It doesn’t happen face to face. I’m fortunate enough to have met many of the contributors to this thread (in various states of inebriation) and there isn’t one of them I wouldn’t want to have a pint with again. At my first Gatbash a group of us stood in a circle and, after the introductions were out of the way, one of the first comments was; “This is Pprune - shouldn’t we have an argument now?” And we all had a good laugh.

For anyone new to Pprune, or anyone who doesn’t get the chance to put faces to names at the bashes, don’t take it too seriously – I certainly don’t. It’s only a website, after all.

To reinforce the message much more eloquently than I can manage, take a few minutes to read the best posting I have ever seen on Pprune – Sick Squid’s reply, 4th post from the top:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36718&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Yes, there are some silly comments made by some pretty silly people who should know better. C’est la vie. Be prepared to sort the wheat from the chaff, and Pprune will provide you with many real gems of information. IMHO, this thread is a classic example of that.

[VFR800]

BRL,

Don't delete the thread dude, after all, it just reflects life, lots of people with lots of differing opinions, not all of which will see eye to eye!

I can't think of a school that would send someone off on their 1st solo navex and then make it QXC, but it doesn't mean to say it doesn't happen. There are a lot of really appalling schools out there, whatever WWW may say and let’s face it, he’s not exactly the customer is he!

F'instance, I was sent off on a QXC in marginal weather, vis. at 1st destination was under 8km, I think the minimum is 10km, correct me if I'm wrong. Upon arrival at the 1st destination, it started to pee with rain, so I phoned the club, who asked me to return, saying the weather at the departure was acceptable. Note the word return, not deviate. Returning to my departure airfield, I strayed into IMC, got lost and eventually landed with a hoooge CB less than 2 miles away from the end of the runway and a crosswind of 20 knots (I was flying a 152). Oh dear!

I completed by QXC a week later, but to be honest, the whole experience scared the crap out of me and I gave up flying shortly afterwards. After a 3-year break I'm now 2 hours away from skills test.

This particular club made me fly with no less than 8 instructors, some of highly dubious proficiency and a couple with inter-personal skills of the Adams family! They didn’t bother with ground school, or proper briefs and definitely were of ‘light the fires and kick the tyres’ mentality, which may be a jolly wheeze, but is not exactly beneficial to your budding PPL!

I have had problems with the customer care side of the club I currently fly with and have posted a couple of threads about this, after a 'debate' with the club, these have been resolved and it's now a friendly and good place to fly.

I am sure the Phoenix has a bad time of it and some of what he says may be exaggerated or not, who am I judge. The point is the general standard of instruction and quality of a/c, school facilities and customer care of GA schools in this country is appalling. I know there are good schools and good instructors, but they are the exception, not the norm IMHO.

Flying is expensive and takes commitment and determination on the part of the student, however the obstacles posed by the above put a lot of guys 'n gals off and act to the detriment of GA. In the end the treatment metered out to Phoenix et al means we all lose out. :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I remember way back when a fresh faced 17yr old Welshman was dispatched on his QXC in a spamcan. Leg one no problem, leg two from Halfpenny Green to Shobdon - tootling inbound to Shobdon - must be within 20 miles now... where is it? Call them up with the usual speel including what I had for breakfast and sock colouration. Just as they reply my radio goes dead and I enter a ruddy great shower of rain. The knackered plexiglass windscreen becomes totally opaque as its

a) Old and knackered

b) Smeared in a summers worth of oil and bugs

So brave little Welshman ends up doing a rate one turn for a minute and then starts a small flapping exercise. Pounding the jack leads got the radio back and it turned out Shobdon was hiding just behind the rain shower.

I felt right chuffed when I got home and there were many tales of derring do that night. QXC should be a confidence builder. Therefore it needs to be a slight challenge.

I still disagree about radio nav. On the one hand if you are using it properly having been properly trained to do it then you are not developing your map nav skills. And on the other if you are attempting to use it following a cursory introduction then you are likely to mess it up and get yourself in trouble. I have seen it happen hundreds of times before. I've rarely seen two club aircraft with the same Nav fit and this often causes great difficulty even to students who were quite proficient the other day in another aircraft.

Odd new nav kit still catches me out and I really should know better by now.

Fly your heading accurately and be observant - you won't go far wrong.


WWW

[MikeeB]

I'm not saying I've just used Nav Aids, because I haven't. I've been taught to look out the window, see what is around, and then try work it out on the chart.

I had to fly most of my duel's using just the chart anyway to prove that I could.

Hey, I've even got in the aeroplane, set up a VOR and ADF, only for the instructor to get in 10 minutes later and "unset them" again, such that I couldn't use them.

Looking at it another way, if they don't teach you how to use them before your QXC, just when would they?

Again it comes down to different students and different schools, but if we are realisitic, how many people will pay duel rates for instruction once they've got their license?

I'm happy that I can draw a line between A --> B and fly it, without Radio Nav, however I'm new to this so as WB hinted, I'm not sure I'd want to go fly in Wales or Scotland etc. Need a good few more hours under my belt for that one. How many schools do teach you how to fly in Wales or Scotland? (except the obvious ones).
I know what I'm happy to do, and not happy to do. As time goes on, and I gain experience, hopefully I'll gain more confidence in myself, and spread those wings so to speak.

[IO540]

The last bit of this debate comes down to whether what is taught in the PPL is enough to enable you to fly to your licence privileges.

Objectively the answer has to be NO (what's the legal minimum horizontal visibility, and can it be navigated visually, by a 50-hour-total-time PPL?)

Visual navigation is easy once you can fly the plane almost subconsciously, but that takes far more than 50 hours on type, perhaps 300 hours for the average pilot and that's assuming reasonably recent currency too. Until then, the workload is high enough to make the flight hard work rather than enjoyable. But most pilots with many hours have long forgotten what it is like, hence statements like "you can fly anywhere with purely map reading" (which is technically correct of course).

This is why I think radio navigation should be taught properly within the PPL. This is controversial but nowhere near as controversial (VOR tracking and VOR/VOR position fix are in the syllabus) as a mere mention of GPS.

The trouble is that whenever anyone suggests teaching ANYTHING other than visual navigation, fifty people will weigh in with the old argument that doing so will detract from visual nav skills.....

If you want to get people jumping around, go into a room full of grey-haired PPL instructors and mention "GPS". It is like the abolition of the closed shop.

In the end all this is almost irrelevant, because some 90-95% of fresh PPLs vote with their feet and chuck it all in pretty quickly, and those who fly decent journeys almost without exception use GPS and VOR/DME and don't spent much time posting in this forum :O

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And go charging through controlled airspace with their noses firmly glued to a tiny GPS screen usually relaying data from a long out of date database.

Radio Nav is in the PPL syllabus and its sensible for it to be there.

I just personally won't see it taught until Bloggs has mastered map nav. What people do after their training is up to them - I trust them to be professional about their flying and their abilities.

Well, most of them.

Cheers

WWW

[VFR800]

WWW,

Would you be a 'grey-haired PPL instructor' then, as the mention of GPS seems to have brought you out in a nasty rash!

Maybe your fore-fathers were similarly opposed to the Spinning Jenny!! :O

[NineEighteen]

Shall we all have a hug now and go down the pub? Much better than the semolina we so often get on Private Flying. I was scared to say it myself...but I'm glad to see that it's not just me! :yuk:

Stir, stir, stir...:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Nah - I have a spanking 6 month old Garmin GPS PilotIII in my flightbag. Amazing piece of kit - much more accurate than the kit in the works motor.

But then I had over 1000 VFR hours logged before I bought it.

Mind you I did get lost on my CPL navex for about 10 minutes - mistook Huntigdon for St Ives as I recall. Happens to everyone.

Cheers

WWW

[IO540]

And go charging through controlled airspace with their noses firmly glued to a tiny GPS screen usually relaying data from a long out of date database

Actually, no, most high-time pilots use GPS and VOR/DME concurrently.

I don't know your occupation but your view is common among PPL instructors. Most of them rarely venture beyond the nearest folds in their chart.

Mind you I did get lost on my CPL navex for about 10 minutes - mistook Huntigdon for St Ives as I recall. Happens to everyone.

Actually, NO, it happens only if you've made a navigation error. (I never got lost on my QXC etc, but I did that in fantastic visibility and often in view of the coast and some massive land features.) The landmarks you mention did not change position. The trick is to navigate in a manner which makes an error (especially a GROSS error like you describe, in terms of distance bad enough to land someone in very serious trouble if they are close to CAS to start with) improbable. Visual navigation does not meet this requirement, because there is a variety of small and large errors which can easily be made.

Visual navigation is all that can be practically taught within a 45-hr PPL, given the condition of flying school planes and lack of equipment. But that is nothing to do with the fact that it is also the easiest way to get lost. As you found yourself.

I will accept someone having a go at GPS if used within the existing PPL training framework; there's really not a good place for it. But after that, everything changes.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Maybe my view is common among PPL instructors. I'm also an IRI and airline pilot as it happens so its a view shared not exclusively in PPL schools.

Everyone gets lost from time to time and anyone who says they haven't is a liar.

I'm not saying basic use of VORDMENDB can't be taught in the 45hr course. I cover it all in two one hour sorties towards the end of the course usually under the umbrella of 'skilltest preparation'.

You've GOT to be able to confidently navigate without recourse to radio aids in my opinion. Handheld GPS can and does fail. It is jammed from time to time by the military. Radio aids do go inop.

Remember a B777 still has an e-type compass and a stopwatch. Boeing wouldn't put them there without a reason.

Cheers

WWW

[englishal]

I disagree that you should NOT use Navaids at all. If its fitted, you should know how to use it. A GPS doesn't nescessarily lead to pilots bashing through CAS, in fact if its used right it will prevent this.

I agree that a student should NOT use a GPS in general cross country training flights, but if fitted they should know how to use them and when its pertinent to use them (ie when they get lost). This should be included in the instrumentation instruction which is required,and should be carried out before solo X/C's in my opinion. Get a Lat and Long of the display and draw your fix on the chart. Same goes for conventional navaids, find the radial, find a DME, draw the fix on the chart. Its pretty easy,most student pilots will have the nescessary brain power to do this.....In fact in the future its going to be essential for Private pilots to know how to use a GPS. Had a look in an OMF Symphony yesterday, lovely 2 seater modern 152 equivalent, its instrumentation consisted of twin Garmin 430's......

Cheers
EA:D

[Say again s l o w l y]

Human nature being what it is, no basic training a/c should have GPS fitted. If you get lost or "temporarily unsure of your position" you should be able to get out of it without having to resort to modern technology. I don't agree that low time students should know every in and out before they go off on their own. The basics yes but there is enough for them to think about already.
I agree wholeheartedly with WWW that stude's should not go near a GPS until they have mastered maps.
IO540 the reason you get instructors jumping up and down about GPS (and I'm nowhere near being grey) is that it does degrade the basic skills, just read GASIL etc. for tales of people calling D&D because their GPS has failed.

Get the basics right and then we'll teach you how to put the cream on top. That's speaking as PPL, CPL instructor and IRI. If you 'aint got the first bit right you're wasting my time and YOUR money. Who would do circuits without doing climbing and descending first???

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you show a student how to use the navaids prior to him completing his solo navexs then you don't ever know if the only thing getting him around was the navaids.

If he is using them he is cheating himself and setting himself up to fail the skilltest.

Even if he does know how to use them I don't like the idea of Bloggs being out in the open air for the first, second or third time with his head down, frown upon face, twiddling with the nav kit.

Its a recipe for spiral dive, stall or collision.

What he should be doing is drawing a circle and then following the Lost Procedure.

WWW

[Maxflyer]

No axe to grind, nobody to insult. Just to say I had several instructors - found it beneficial. I wasn't allowed to solo until I had passed Met' and Air Law. Wasn't allowed to go on my QXC until I had passed my R/T.

I was taught that go/ no go decisions were down to me. I waited seven months to go on my QXC. I religiously booked a triple slot each week and each week I didn't go because of bad wx. I would discuss the likelihood of my flight with my FI and the CFI. I'm glad I did it that way. The only downside was, I flew the route dual in September 02 and finally did it solo in April 03. During that time I had lost familiarity with the route.

I don't need to read between the lines of previous posts to know that I am not a natural born pilot, but I do feel that my school has enabled me to be a safe pilot. I am glad they applied the belt and braces approach with my training.

As for Radio Nav Aids; I didn't get taught to use them fully until after my QXC. Had I struggled I would have used 121.5 and looked for a diversion. I felt I had enough to concentrate on that day as it was.

I got my PPL in May 03 in a Robin HR200. I'm now converting to a Warrior and know that I have a lot to learn still.

That's my input.

Oh yes! I think WWW has made very good points, albeit in a slightly caustic and amusing way.

Hope the Moderator doesn't bin the thread. It makes a change from all things pink popping up all of the time:)

[Whirlybird]

I don't get all this. Are some of you really thinking clearly? What is this pink, semolina, etc rubbish people keep going on about? Anyone would think a normal thread on this forum consisted of little old ladies genteely agreeing with each other all the time. That's utter crap. There are some good discussions, even arguments. But they're usually conducted in an intelligent, logical fashion, and people usually have something to say. Or to put it another way, they argue with what people say; they don't put down the person. That didn't happen here. WWW criticised Phoenix because of what he'd said on another thread, because his experiences seemed unbelievable, and because he reminded WWW of a certain type of student. And some of you think that makes this into a good argument, that it's the way PPRuNe ought to be!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, my thoughts on that would certainly make BRL bin this thread.

[IO540]

WWW

Remember a B777 still has an e-type compass and a stopwatch. Boeing wouldn't put them there without a reason.

They are there because the FAA says so. Is there a failure mode on a 777 where you would lose ALL your navigation instruments (including radios) and still have enough electrically powered stuff left working to be able to fly and land the aircraft? And if so, how likely is it to happen?

SAS

IO540 the reason you get instructors jumping up and down about GPS (and I'm nowhere near being grey) is that it does degrade the basic skills, just read GASIL etc. for tales of people calling D&D because their GPS has failed.

I accept GPS cannot realistically be taught in the 45-hr PPL course. Especially as the average student takes 50-60hrs already, and many schools would not have the money to fit out their planes.

I do read GASIL for what it is worth, been to the CAA safety presentations, etc. These are mostly aimed at 10hr/year pilots flying WW2-equipped aircraft - probably the majority of the fatal accident statistics which is why the CAA and D&D plug away at the same stuff everywhere they go. If your GPS packs up you immediately fall back onto VOR/DME (which you've been using all along, concurrently). If you get a total electrical failure then you can't call 121.50 either, so you've got to carry a handheld radio, otherwise you better hope to either be in VMC or be able to descend into VMC above the MSA. I carry a handheld GPS and a handheld radio - as well as having all the stuff in the plane.

As regards ex-GPS D&D "customers", there will always be people getting lost doing heading/time/map navigation, getting lost wrongly doing VOR/DME, getting lost wrongly using a GPS. The only difference is that the first category is "OK" because they were doing it "the right way". There is no solution to the first one, other than many hours of practice and currency, and of course good visibility. The other 2 are usually silly procedural errors (flying 80 instead of 180 or creating duff user waypoints on a cheap GPS) which are easy to avoid if you use both systems.

None of this is rocket science.

Most instructors will always dislike GPS because of the above reasons, but it is a huge backward step to insist it should not be used afterwards.

[Say again s l o w l y]

IO540, it isn't that I dislike GPS, in fact I think it is a brilliant aid. A real revolution and I for one always have my trusty hand held some where in the a/c.
What I dislike is the over reliance on it. More often than not it has become the primary navigation tool. On more than one occasion I have had people say " I'm off to so and so" when I ask to see there PLOG "Oh it's alright, I've got my GPS."

As an aid it is unbeatable, but it is just that. It does drop out occasionally, usually when you need it most (sod's law).

I don't particularily like the way you say I do read GASIL for what it is worth, been to the CAA safety presentations, etc. These are mostly aimed at 10hr/year pilots flying WW2-equipped aircraft
These are not aimed at one group in particular, I learn something every time I read it, it may seem basic, but the same problems keep cropping up no matter what the experience level. Nobody is above learning.
One final thing, WWW is right, everybody knows the sinking feeling when you realise that you are lost. I have and every pilot I've ever been in contact has at some point, eventually it happens to us all despite(or because of!) the best efforts of technology.

[Timothy]

I have had a failure mode in an HS125 whereby the batteries went into series (which they should only do for engine start) thus putting 56v through everything that was expecting 28v. It took out nearly everything that was switched on at the time (including all three inverters, nearly all the avionics, and much else besides.)

I have no idea if such a thing could happen in a 747, but it certainly gave pause for thought on our flight deck.

Compasses and mechanical stopwatches are a good idea.

W

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi folks,

Well this thread has got a few comments in it now! I have a few replies… It’s now the 11th; I’m answering posts from as far back as 7th!! Apologies.



FlyingForFun: 7/10

The concept of my being invited to consider a ‘go/no-go decision’ at that time was certainly not part of the picture of my tuition then. Perhaps it should have been! But I wasn’t at that level of confidence, and anyway I just wanted to fly. It takes me an hour to drive to this airfield, and once there I like to get in as much as I can.

Your other point about communications, yes I agree. It would certainly help me a lot if one Instructor knew what the other had been doing.



In Altissimus: 7/10

Wow, your first solo landaway and first navex was your QXC?! For whatever reasons, right or wrong, that’s impressive! My QXC was, though, my second solo navex, but my first solo landaway.

I am thinking again about the changing of schools. As I have said, I am going to talk to the CFI…



Wcollins: 7/10

A little more clarity about what a QDM is, how it is measured and provided, compared to the triangulation service offered by D & D might help someone who has already been confused. Hear! hear!



Genghis the Engineer: 7/10

For my first solo navex (para #1 of my first posting) I had done none of the exams. For my QXC, I had Air Law but not the others you mentioned. And as I mentioned above, this CB stuff was no part of a go/no-go test. And as you say, even if it had been, the FI should have not let me fly.



Chipmunk2: 7/10

I think that’s the thing, isn’t it - one thinks that the Instructor knows better than the Student.

I am going to tackle the CFI about this. Personally I think he has to bear some of the blame - after all the tuition is supposed to be under his overall direction, I assume. As for the CAA, I will wait to see the outcome of my chat.



Northern Highflyer: 7/10

A short field landing during your skills test, and you hadn’t been shown one? Were you flying out of my school…?!

I don’t see why you should have to be made to feel guilty over changing instructor for your IMCR. One presumes that if your first instructor had been thorough, you would have been happy to stay with him.



Whirlybird: 7/10

Thanks.

I can see now, because of all of the postings, that the experiences I have had have been pretty bad. I thought the quality of my instruction was bad; but I didn’t actually know it was bad - and certainly not how bad. There is a big difference. This was why I posted this thread.

And I guess I can see that because this is such a bad thing to have had happened, a couple of people don’t believe it. That’s their choice. I have sent you a pm btw.

Well, I have now done my QXC without the use of the radio nav aids too! I still feel it would have been nice to have known what a QDM is and how to use one. And if the instruction is this bad and one has to look out for oneself all the more and not be so trusting of the abilities of the Instructors, then I personally felt that Students should know about the nav aids before the QXC - just in case.

You make another very good point - it’s hard to know what you don’t know. I will work on your suggestion.



drauk:

I think it would be more appropriate to deal with the club first and let them hear my complaints. And thank you, yes all I had done up to that point was to give merely the facts of what took place. Not opinions. That was precisely my intention. It was the opinions of others that I was after. I already know mine.



Now to the 8/10…! But a little break and, sadly, some work first… But just one more thing.

I am compiling a list of things that have happened to me at this school, in preparation for my talk with the CFI. I have another question to which I don’t know the answer. Now I know I am going to get a major amount of flak here and be shot down in flames by some who have read my postings in disbelief, but in spite of them, here it is!

At 4,000 feet across the channel, in a PA28… If one of the fuel caps on the wing were to come off - what would be likely to happen? Nothing? The fuel in that wing would be pulled out? A disaster in the making, or nothing too serious?

Thanks everyone.


TP

[IO540]

SAS

More often than not it has become the primary navigation tool. #

I think the biggest problem here is not making a distinction between a GPS being used for PRIMARY navigation (which is absolutely fine, and is the best way because a GPS is far more reliable, accurate, less prone to gross errors) and it being used for SOLE navigation (which is stupid, because any single device can fail).

In VMC, one can perfectly well use a GPS for primary navigation. It works especially well if you load the route into it. And you SHOULD concurrently read the chart;

I know some people don't read the chart but there will always be people who do silly things, and it would be an interesting question whether a careless person with a GPS is less likely to be lost than a careless person without one; I am sure the answer is that having a GPS is better. Of course there is no data to work on because only those who get hopelessly lost and call D&D or somebody are known about, and it is very hard to get hopelessly lost with a moving-map GPS.

In IMC, one uses the GPS as primary and VOR/DME concurrently. This is also by far the best way to navigate in VMC; the two methods tend to eliminate each other's gross errors.

But this debate can go on for ever, because any navigation method other than visual navigation is bound to detract from one's visual skills! A bit like any speed limit above zero will result in deaths.

The CAA presentations are aimed at the basics, in fact the presenter at the last one I went to told me so; they appear to tailor the material to the statistics which is fair enough. They go over and over what is basically PPL revision. I don't knock it and read every word on every page, but I think there is only so many times you can tell somebody to not get distracted and stall after takeoff.

TPR

At 4,000 feet across the channel, in a PA28… If one of the fuel caps on the wing were to come off - what would be likely to happen? Nothing? The fuel in that wing would be pulled out? A disaster in the making, or nothing too serious?

Whatever happens, you should have enough fuel in the other tank to get across the English Channel, anywhere :O

I would be extremely worried if it was raining though!! That (leaks past filler caps on planes parked outside) I have found is the biggest reason for water in the system. Once I drained out five full-size fuel testers, completely full of water, out of a PA28. When it's 100% water it is easy to think it is just fuel.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi IO540:

Well that's a relief it's not serious anyway. No, no rain. And it didn't actually come off. Instructor #2 did a walk round at Le Touquet and a visual check on the fuel levels, but did not replace the cap on the port wing properly. I noticed it in flight, that it was at a wrong angle. It could have come off; but it didn't.

But, it was another little slip from an Instructor which I wouldn't expect to be made...

TP

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Instructor #2 did a walk round at Le Touquet and a visual check on the fuel levels, but did not replace the cap on the port wing properly. I noticed it in flight How strange. Nothing of the sort could ever have happened to me during my training, as the pre flight checklist was always done by the student, ie me. And checking that the caps are on right is a separate checklist item that you do some time after checking the fuel.

Do other people rely on instructors to check out aircraft?

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi GTW:

I had done my check already, and was told to make it a cursory one anyway as the instructor wanted to get a move on and get back. The Instructor then had a quick walk round and looked at the fuel.

TP

[Gertrude the Wombat]

and was told to make it a cursory one anyway as the instructor wanted to get a move on and get back This is called get-home-itis. It kills people.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi GTW:

Thanks. I am learning lots here. And certainly about how things should, and should not, be.

TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I wouldn't read anything into an instructor not putting a fuel cap on quite straight. We are all human.

What were you doing in France on a training exercise? Did you request to do the trip or something?

Seem of dubious training value to plod across the channel on a navex when you could be flying a leg with a map in one hand whilst negotiating to traverse some controlled airspace and then get a diversion. Lunch in France sounds like a jolly day out for the instructor with some training value thrown in as an afterthought.

Would make me suspect the standards are slack if it is routine for low time students on navexs to end up taking Lunch in frogland.

You did have a dinghy on board I hope? Or were you wearing a drysuit?


WWW

[The Phoenix Rises]

WWW:

AAAAARGH!!!

You have really got me into the serious giggles now!

Are you getting such a bashing here that you have to resort to posting what I said in another thread?!!

Heehee!! Come on, put your disbelieving hatchet away.

This is too funny for words...!

TP




Ooops, and I've just seen your posting above...

Yes, that's right, we both had full frog suits on already...!

TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

IO540 - the problem with GPS is twofold.

1) its so good that people use it all the time and forget how to cope without it.

2) the units have so many options and a limited interface that results in an inordinante amount of heads down time fiddling with it.

I've no problem with them myself - I have a Garmin PilotIII and think its wonderful. Its useful in IMC IR training as you can show Bloggs in real time just how pants his hold pattern is. It is very useful to show blogs what is happening pictorally and get him to relate that to what the needles are doing. I find this allows Bloggs to build the mental model he needs in a fraction of the time it often takes without.

I think a lot of people bemoan the rise of GPS because it takes some of the skill away from aviating. Thereby devaluing it a little.

Unfortunately this is an age old and accelerating trend. Blatting about in a tiger moth is much harder than in a C152. In the future we will all be flying FADEC push button diesel engines with integrated GPS avionics and probably basic autopilots.

You could call it progress and be grateful or you could lament the facts.

Cheers

WWW

---------------------
---------------------


What bashing? This isn't bashing. Hell I've been in 27 page threads with death threats before now. This is barely a heated word.

Glad to hear you had frog suits on. Your chances of survival without are minimal even in the Channel in summer.

Right, I'm off waterskiing for the first time now. If I don't post again you'll know it didn't go well.

Cheers

WWW

ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible. ;)

[SlipSlider]

WWW I stayed out of this thread 'til now because I don't use VOR/DME etc at all (the a/c I fly has none...) but.....X-channel as a student?

There was an article in Flyer by a fairly well known instructor that made the point that as a morale booster and in the right circumstances and timing it is a superb exercise. "Why am I spending all this money to learn to fly?" ..... trip to calais/Le2K ...."of course, THATS why I'm spending all this money!!"

This particular QFI does a lot of x-channel check-outs, so has no need to manufacture jollys.

An open mind can be a good thing, even perhaps for a very experienced instructor.
Slip

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm willing to be persuaded. I'm just naturally suspicious of dual navexs that involve landing somewhere agreeable. Its always at the students expense and sometimes has dubious training value but is a nice day out for the instructor.

That said I used to engineer it myself to take a couple of students off for the day and do some landaways in Faro and Granada for lunch. It can make a pleasant change for everyone and make the training more enjoyable for Bloggs.

Or it can be a lazy arsed freebie for some hour building clock watching scum of an instructor who probably eats babies or something.

Take your pick.

Cheers

WWW

[The Phoenix Rises]

WWW:

ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible.

That's fine. I can hardly believe it either!

Next time you are down my way, come and have a drink and meet this Instructor. You can ask direct then...

TP

[PPRuNe Towers]

hmmm, about those silly things like compass and clock.

Royal Nepalese 75 just lost the lot out of KTM - that's Kathmandu. Bit lumpy out there. Just about an hour for it to get down safely. The two previous 75's it happened to didn't make it. Lost all on board. Technology is a tool and only a tool relies on it.

GPS - sole or primary nav - be honest. You know and I know that folks are using it as sole. They haven't drawn a line on a map since they discovered the combining of the words credit card, Duracell and Garmin.

It's habitual, it's engrained and it's thoroughly supported by the industry because the mark up is higher than a half mill.

The training experiences suffered by the Phoenix and others are and have always been available in the UK and elsewhere. I first set foot in a club 28 years ago and asked the gods to teach me to fly. Ended up having to threaten to call the CAA before they'd get the POH for a PA28-140 out of the safe. I didn't agree with them that it actually was a 4 seater when fueled up and wanted to do a W&B. Tragic thing was I had my licence by then and no one else had ever had the gumption to demand the same during the prior 8 years Cherokees had flown there.

They continued to fly that way for many years after.

I may fly full glass with a head up display these days but I'm still very active in light aviation. Nothing suprises me amongst these seemingly bizarre experiences. For all apparently mortally wounded by by the Welshman's turn of phrase sup once more from his words. Wind yourselves up into a tizzy yet again and once calmed down re-read. As with others posting here there's some very good advice within.

The uncomfortable fact for many of you is that the Weslshman won't lie down and be shafted. He and anyone he advises will not be walked over by lazy, bored, shoddy practices in GA. If you don't think they exist you are very, very wrong.

Regards
Rob

PS If you do fly with all that dreadful nav and comms gear in your aeroplane here's a pointer to an invaluable resource you will be utterly daft to ignore.

A two page avionics trouble shooting guide which is both excellent and free. Comes as a pdf download for you to print out and laminate if you've got any sense at all.

Go to
http://www.aea.net/MemberDirectory/

Click on 'Pilot Resources in the left margin and on the page that comes up you select the third item down catchily titled:
Pilot's Avionics Troubleshooting Guide

If you feel first stages of each procedure seem simplistic you've obviously never spoken to an avionics engineer about their experiences or flown with me

:uhoh: :uhoh:

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi PPRuNe Towers:

Thanks for your comments.

I am here to learn, and share. I am appreciative of all comments on flying. The Welshman may be a great pilot / instructor. But in my book there is no place for rudeness or bad manners of any kind, in any walk of life. Others have kindly imparted their knowledge here with style and good will. The Welshman's people skills suck.

However, I have now forgiven him...!




IO540: 8/10

I know this Instructor is not that well off. But I can’t believe this occurred because of wanting to get a fee. Knowing what I now know, I think it is more likely a case of just being not terribly good at the job.



Tiger_Moth: 8/10

You’re a lucky person.



Whirlybird: 8/10

Does the Instructor that saved you live anywhere near me and if so can I have the telephone number?!



Circuit Basher: 8/10

Brilliant post. Thank you!



Whirlybird: 9/10

Terrifying. What happened to the owner/school, was it closed down?



Aussie Andy: 9/10

Thanks for the comments. As for perception, believe me I know the difference between real rain, thunder and lightning in the air flying on a solo navex, and something in my imagination.

This thread and the comments of you folk have certainly made me decide to tackle the school about it, as you may already have seen. I am going to get to the CFI with a list, and a formal letter recording the details I am raising in the meeting. After that, I will go to the CAA. Even if I am laughed at by some.



dublinpilot: 9/10

Brilliant post, and thank you. I couldn’t agree more.



Strafer: 9/10

ditto above.



say again slowly: 9/10

Para 1: well, this one did. Para 2: I mis-read earlier, I know now you are referring to In Altissimus over the QXC. My QXC was my second solo navex. My first was that described in #1 of the original posting to this thread.




Look, folks. Flying is something I have always wanted to do. I also have a very real reason for doing it, and a very real purpose for doing it. It is also the only job I have ever wanted to do other than that which I do do. Dinner parties, rich businessmen… oh come on, please! Why mock those with lesser knowledge and ability - at the moment - than you may have?

Ok, time for another break and a cup of tea!

TP

[Whirlybird]

TP,

The instructor I referred to left for a well deserved airline job the day after I finished my PPL. He was an hour builder, but believed in doing his best at everything he did. Not all airline wannabe hour building instructors are bad. The good ones get jobs quicker, I've noticed; their attitude shows - as does that of the bad ones! Sometimes life IS fair. The school should have been closed down; I know an instructor who tried to get it closed, and failed. But it's closed now, and the airfield is under new management.

Unfortunately I don't know any good instructors in your area, but someone will, and I'm sure they exist; keep looking. :ok:

[drauk]

TPR, you are generally quite careful to be post a specific reply to each person that has responded in this thread. However, you've not replied to me about naming the school at which this all happened. So, I'm just curious, why have you elected not to name this flying school? The consensus is that what happened to you is terrible and as it is a matter of absolute fact there is presumably no problem with spreading gossip about them.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Whirlybird:

Well, it was worth a shot!



drauk:

Please see my reply of this morning, 08:15, towards the end.



TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just what the hell are 'people skills'? Sounds like more new age management Pseudo tosh to me.

Be very very very careful about letting people know what you think of any FTO. You can land yourself in legal trouble quite easily - I've seen it happen before and its a pain for all involved.

Your real identity is easily established.

Cheers

WWW

[The Phoenix Rises]

WWW:

People skills are what you don't have much of.

As for the rest of this mumbo jumbo: *yawn, yawn*.

Cheers!

TP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I reserve the right to let you have the last word.

Cheers

WWW

[Tony Bowers]

I am a relative newby (to PPRuNe, not aviation) and mainly lurk, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I am on many other forums and newsgroups and would say that the contributions to this thread by WWW fall well below the standard normally expected of moderators.

In most places moderators are the ones who step in when an individual is being accused of lying, who put oil on the water when it gets rough and who plead for moderation, rather than be the accusers, stirers and shouters, acting as judge and jury.

If I were WWW I would seriously consider whether I were an appropriate person to be a moderator.

I'll be interested to see how long this posting stays on the thread. If the moderators have the interests of the forum at heart it will stay, if they (as I fear) are more interested in their own power and prestige it will disappear having only been read by a few. I may even be banned. I would only ask those few who do see it to carry the message forward.

Tony

[Fly Stimulator]

WWW is robustly making the point that there tends to be more than one side to most stories, and that the same events can admit of more than one interpretation. Given the gravity of the claims being made here, that point needs to be made fairly strongly.

[Whirlybird]

Well, I'm a very new instructor and I may change my mind, but at the moment I feel that people skills are at least as important as flying skills when teaching someone to fly. Unfortunately I get the impression that not a lot of instructors know that. :( WWW sounds like he's suffering from instructor burn-out, or maybe just plain old bitterness and cynicism.

[Timothy]

A member of the forum can say "The Phoenix is lying".

A moderator should say "there are often two sides to a story"

W

[BRL]

Tony B. Your post makes intersting reading. you say you are a lurker and your opinion doesn't count for much. Well, your opinion is valued the same as anyone else who reads pprune. Just because you don't post often doesn't mean you have no weight behind you.

Second point is why you think your post would be deleted and yourself banned :confused: Why????

As for moderating this thread, I stepped in a few pages back to calm things down a bit and it worked for a while. Right now, most of the posts have gone back to having a go at individuals rather than the main point of this thread and that is, "The quality of your instruction...."

"What next then" I hear you cry. Well, whatever I say I will do to stop the thread turning into a flame war, I will get a lot of stick by some. The only thing I can do to save it is lock it and leave it and that I might do if it continues to go the way it is going.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Tony, as someone who's been running the site since it started I have to ask why you think we'd remove your post?

It's us who are being belted by low flying lawyers missives regarding a long running thread here on affairs at another GA field and we take it all in our stride. It happened last year with a thread regarding another UK operation.

As I wrote before nothing that goes on in UK GA can suprise me. However, a mild 'it takes two sides' won't cut it in this case. The Welshman was looking after our interests in two ways. He gave excellent advice regarding flight training to all those new to aviation and he made it brutally clear to the Phoenix that whether to us, his club/FTO or the CAA SRG group that he or she would have to front up with solid information at some point if wishing to persist with such claims.

It is obvious that Phoenix is willing to do that privately whatever the merits of the case and thus, you will note and I'm sure Phoenix will confirm, not one word of their multiple posts has been altered, edited or deleted.

For those who need it spelling out: the Welshman could have made all those points using another ID. He did it with a moderators subtitle as it offers us a more substantial defence if needed. Why?????

Phoenix while admittting, what might seem to some, breathtaking naivety also alleges serious failings at a school. Despite this being The PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumour Network more than 95% of our legal problems stem from aggrieved Flight Training Organisations/Airfield Operators. In this way we were able to allow an important debate to continue. It may well be you'd do it another way - that's fine by me. Collectively PPRuNe challenged the story repeatedly while offering thought through advice.

I find that People Skills singularly fail to stop lawyers trying to take away my home. I hope you'll understand if not agree.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Whirlybird]

PPRuNe Towers,

I don't get it. The Phoenix refused to name the school, or give any indication of where it was. So how could that involve PPRune in a legal case? And how does it excuse blatantly calling someone a liar with no grounds, rather than mentioning that there are two sides to every story and/or that people on PPRune have been known to lie?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I never have subscribed to the view that Moderators should be moderate. Personally my husbandry of my forums involves keeping things lively - elsewise all you get is a million threads about who's sponsoring and which is the best school. All very dull. Much better to have some hurly burly. I bet this thread has caused the hit rate of Private Flying to spike up a bit.

I think what I said originally was that "I don't believe that happened". Which is subtley different from running around yelling "Liar, liar pants on fire". A student pilots perception of events is often a bit skewed as its all a bit new and amazing to them.

Anyway - I can't get excited about it. You can't take PPRuNe too seriously or too earnestly people.

And Whirly - I've been an instructor now for a decade I - quite scarily - just noticed. No sign of burnout yet but my cynicism is as intact as it ever was.

There are shoddy schools out there and I've trained at them. There are near death trap aircraft hired out to student pilots and there are plenty of underpaid, miserable, dispirited instructors who frankly don't give a damn for anything other than your money and another logbook entry.

There are some things to look for that you only ever find out about until after you've got your license and some experience.

I suspect that the majority of pilots out there look back on their PPL training and see how they would have done it differently to make it better.

Cheers

WWW

[Aussie Andy]

Boy, am I glad I learned to fly with the professional instructors and standards of British Airways Flying Club (http://www.bafc.co.uk) at Wycombe... I hadn't really considered that I was getting something so unusual, but am fast forming the impression that I was lucky!?

I hope some of the heavy-handed comments have not put off our friend Phoenix!

Andy

[BRL]

It doesn't take a genius to look back at various posts from Phoenix to work out who the school are. That's why I haven't done it yet. :D Seriously, some one else has and the school itself know all about this thread.

They are quite right I think, not going to get involved on a public forum with an ex-student and fair play to them for doing that.

The school, from what I have heard from students who have e-mailed me and Pm'ed, me have a genuinely good reputation to keep up. The last thing I want to do is recieve a phone call from the owner and having to sort things out that way. I have done it twice over the last year and don't want to do it again.

Back to the thread in hand now, and again, I will let it run and see if it settles down again. If not and I close it then you only have yorselves to blame.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Whirly, we've never clashed before and I see no need to now.

The thread has been a good one for the industry because it has given cause to think about perceptions of training throughout the UK both by providers and customers. It's provided extremely valuable advice for folks at what is the most vulnerable, anxious and baffling stage of their aviation journey as you found out yourself.

Phoenix has been repeatedly challenged on every significant point because we have seen enough to pretty much know the school referred to. If we can work it out so can many others, if not you.

The experience Phoenix claims simply does not tally with the reputation of the school and the instructors we believe are being referred to.

Cast your mind back and you will note we have not stepped in when some other establishments have come under intense, critical scrutiny despite legal threats. I leave you to draw your own conclusions other than pointing out the school we believe Phoenix attends does not and has never advertised with us. I'd also point out that only one moderator makes a living as an civilian flying instructor and that person is in Australia.

We wholeheartedly support the best in UK GA but we are never beholding to commercial enterprises. Should anyone view that cynically you can see the proof that we consistently maintain that policy on a scale that utterly dwarves the whole of UK and European GA.

Simply enter the words easyJet or Ryanair into our search engine. Have a look at what comes up regarding our two prime advertisers:E :E :E

Regards
Rob

[dublinpilot]

Well, to those who say that without the "spiceing up" that has happened on this thread, that private flying is boring or stale, I would point out that Private Flying has the 4th highest number of posting. That is on a forum on a "professional pilots" board, and a forum that is in operation for a shorter period than those with more posts, and is generally a very friendly place.

Seems most of us actually like the place friendly, and do keep comming back, and don't need any spiceing up.

[Tony Bowers]

I acknowledge the hard work that the moderators do, and I acknowledge the tough decisions that you take and I acknowledge the resources that you put in.

It takes a far better person than I to do these things. I have seen BRL and Rob touching the tiller lightly and I have seen Danny going a bit OTT, but still remaining basically decent.

I question whether WWW has the very high level of skill demonstrated by the other moderators.

His saying that he did not call TPR a liar is disingenuous. Here is but one example:I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’. (Actually, it might have been 6 A-bombs). I had no idea whether that was true at the time, and frankly still don’t, I have yet to read or take Met. Whether the thunder and lightning had started before my navex I cannot say, I am not sure. It had not at the airfield.

B0ll0cks.

Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs... yeah right. I don't personally give a toss where you are training or when you alledge all this took place. There is a no chance I nor the CAA is going to spend a single second checking it out.

Saying someone is speaking B0ll0cks is calling them a liar.

Why did I question whether my post would be allowed to stay? I have seen a couple of people who I know to be thoroughly decent and pleasant being quite badly treated by PPRuNe. One of them is retired very hurt indeed and I don't wish to rake that up, the other is a lady friend whose "crime" was to object to BRL being arrogant and referring to "his" forum (something that I notice WWW does as well) and she was permanently banned. To tell the truth, it was her treatment that put me off joining for some years.

Tony

Edited to add example

[In Altissimus]

Blimey, how far off-topic can this go?

TB, I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks of our cuddly moderator as 'arrogant'. There are several descriptions that come to mind (eg, 'beer monster' and 'recovering scouser' ;) ), but not arrogant.


Back to the subject:

What I find interesting about this debate is that some instructors are so professional that they simply cannot believe the behaviour of other less scrupulous people. They have worked hard for their gold stripes and cannot countenance the fact that, despite all the regulation and red tape, standards really do vary appallingly in the industry. I'm sure there's a name for this syndrome - I know it's been observed and documented in other fields such as Medicine and I.T..

Just my 2d worth.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Folks,

I don't really know where all this is going now. It seems it is a little way off the original posting.

The school, frankly, is not part of this discussion. It is entirely a private matter for me to take up with the school.

Actually I am not sure that I 'alleged' any impropriety at the school in terms of their tuition. I am too new to this to know if the teaching experiences of which I have been on the receiving end were good or bad practice, or common or rare. I have not said that the school doesn’t produce PPL’s, and I haven’t said it is bad overall. I have sought and seek to bring no individual or establishment into any disrepute or controversy of any kind. All I have done is relate here, entirely accurately, what has happened to me in their hands, and this is the entire thrust of my postings. If the school happens to know who I am, then they can look at my notes and check the dates and they will know about my solo flights, and who sent me up on them. The Instructor concerned certainly knows this.

If the school knows, then great! They will know why I am going to talk to the CFI. But I do think I owe it, out of common courtesy, to raise my problems with them direct first before I go and mention names. You can deduce what you like and assume what you like, but the name of the school remains confidential as far as I am concerned.

One other thing, if I may:

To me, this is serious stuff. The fact of the matter is that I could have been killed on that first solo navex. Frankly, it was damned frightening. I think I have taken an enormous amount of flak from some people in this thread, actually moderators of PPRuNe itself, and I am really disappointed to find that those, at least, could not approach this with an open mind. I have not even had a formal request by pm, or openly in the thread, from PPRuNe to verify my statements, yet there is a statement here from a senior member of PPRuNe that I am disbelieved. I think that is a shame, and immensely unfair to me.

You have in me a student with modest hours and experience who knows no other pilots other than the instructors at the school who teach him. I do not know the other students who are there. I have attended no social gatherings there. I have no friends or colleagues who are pilots, with whom I could discuss these issues and from whom I could take soundings. So, I tried to take soundings on this forum, to gather opinions, knowledge and experiences, to form an opinion as to what I should do. To have received such an unfair, pre-judged rebuff from those at the very core of this site is most disheartening.

To those others of you, many, who have believed my story and offered their advice and shared their own experiences here, I say a great thank you.

I now ask that this thread be closed off.

TP

[IO540]

TPR

Just one thing: don't mention names in this business, ever (not that you would but I am saying it anyway).

The reason is this: the GA training business is not, generally, doing very well. Most schools are at best only just hanging in there. As a result, there is a lot of slagging off going on. You've only got to say something, purely in passing, which just conceivably might be considered by somebody else as ever so slightly critical of somebody else, and it will travel at 150kt around the airfield :O If it is an airfield with a number of schools then you can bet they are making even less money and it will travel at 200kt (IAS)... And it will get modified at each waypoint, usually in a manner which makes the originator look very bad when it arrives at its destination. And the destination is whatever anybody wants it to be, to suit their own agenda.

GA is quite small and a lot of people know each other, and a lot of them have their own agendas. School A may not like school B because school A's students have to walk past B's front door on their way to the aircraft, and occassionally some will desert. And that's just the easy stuff. Within a school, one often finds too many instructors for the number of students, with predictable results.

And so on. In this business, it's best to keep one's head down :O

We could all post notes about something dreadful. I could post details of dreadful maintenance practices, multi-aircraft school fly-outs over the channel 100kg over MTOW and with no liferafts and not enough lifejackets, you name it. But one must resist the temptation. For a start, these things are pretty widespread.

As I've said before, get your PPL, get your FAA PPL/IR, get your plane, and do some real flying. THEN, when you search for hangar space for your plane, you will really begin to appreciate why keeping your head down for the last few years was such a good idea :O

I am saying this only 25% tongue in cheek. The rest is personal experience.

[The Phoenix Rises]

Hi Folks:

Although some months have gone by since this thread was current, there has been some activity in the background.

I would like to say a huge thank you to Martin Robinson, Chief Executive Officer of AOPA, and Tony Ryan too, for taking my case so seriously and for taking the trouble to fly down for a meeting with the Club in question for a sort-out.

To all of you who have ever criticised AOPA, I can only say that they were sure there for me and if you haven't paid your sub, you should go and do so!

TP