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Ralgha
5th Oct 2003, 06:48
We have a student who is very near checkride time, except for a fear of stalls, specifically power-on stalls. We've tried everything we can think of to help overcome the fear, but nothing has worked.

Does anybody have any methods/ideas to help someone overcome such things?

Thanks!

weasil
5th Oct 2003, 07:31
Have you tried to determine where that fear comes from? Does it come from a negative experience early on in the training? Does it come from knowledge of an accident?

The FAA always recommends overcoming anxiety by emphasising the positive... that aviation is safe? Does the student understand stability? Maybe he just needs to understand that the aircraft is inherently stable etc... etc....

A few suggestions.

Good Luck.

Weasil

Ralgha
5th Oct 2003, 07:36
We don't know what the root is, he hasn't had any bad experiences. It seems as though he doesn't know that he's scared of them, but when doing them it's obvious that he is.

We've tried stability demos, hands off stalls, hands off spin recoveries (it's a 152), etc....

Whirlybird
5th Oct 2003, 16:34
It seems as though he doesn't know that he's scared of them, but when doing them it's obvious that he is.


I wonder if that's the key. It's quite hard to deal with a problem if you don't know you've got one.

FWIW, I became scared of stalls early on in training after doing rather a lot of them with a gungho young instructor and ending up feeling ill. I got my PPL, did a few stalls when more or less forced to on the occasional checkride, but NEVER on my own or if I didn't have to. Then after a few years and lots of flying I decided I ought to do spin recovery training. I put it off until I found a very experienced instructor that I trusted, and explained that I was scared even of stalls, tended to get airsick mainly due to nerves, but I wanted to do it. Well, it took two sessions (mainly because I felt ill quite early on), with a lot of patience on his part, but I finally almost enjoyed it. And I think it helped that my instructor never got upset, kept totally calm throughout (I was nervous enough for two!), was totally non-critical, and was happy to do it to my timescale however long it took. So all I had to cope with were my own fears and weak stomach, not anything going on with him.

I know that doesn't give you any definite answers but I just thought it might help a bit.

Hilico
5th Oct 2003, 16:59
As a student I never ever liked them. Partly it was the thought of losing control of the aircraft, by which I mean the disappearance of the nice solid force holding it up; but the overwhelming reason was the g-break. I hated it - that sudden lurch down. Don't know what could be done about that.

tacpot
5th Oct 2003, 17:17
How does this fear manifest itself? What symptoms are you seeing and when?

You can attempt to treat the symptoms or you can treat the cause. Whirly's ultimate solution was to treat the cause, which is ultimately more effective. But treating the symptoms could be a valid response with this person.

You could try breaking down the stall recovery into tiny actions and have the student concentrate on a specific step in the recover until they can perform it in a relaxed fashion. The criteria for progression should be relaxation. Emphasise this point to the student. At the very least you might determine that the student is afraid of some specific aircraft attitude or sensation, and this might for the basis for further work with them.

But your attempts to treat this so far (handsoff stalls etc) show you are already open to the idea of treating the symptoms based on the above approach, and they have not yet been successful.


Many mental blockages in training can be traced to a "command blockage". That is to say, the student is not "in command" when they say "I have control". i.e. they do not believe that they are in command. They still expect the instructor to be responsible for the ourcome of each exercise.

One way to undo this is have the student teach you. This would need to be setup on the ground, with the student having been given lots of time to prepare a "lesson". Give them time to talk to you as an instructor, so that you can confirm that they know all the steps to be gone through. Explain to them that you now know they had all the practise and have all the knowledge they need to perform the demonstration very well. Make sure they have made notes before they go off to prepare a lesson plan. Have them give you a ground briefing including a detailed description of the recovery actions, but don't critise any aspect of it. (You're not teaching them to be an instructor!).

This could work if it is the only problem the student has. It could also be combined into a pre-Check ride, so the student can practise a "Passenger" brief for the Examiner. This would again heighten the sensation that they are in command.

One final thought. You say the student has not have any bad experiences. If the student does not know he is afraid, maybe he also does not know he has had a bad experience!

Best wishes to you both.

BigEndBob
5th Oct 2003, 23:48
The answer is don't do power on stalls...to recovery.
Surely it is good that we should ALL be afraid of stalls.
Recovery before the stalls happens is what is important!

Ralgha
6th Oct 2003, 00:38
Thanks for the responses. I don't think that having him teach the maneuver would help, he knows the steps to do it just fine.

I'm not his usual instructor, we've been sending him with different instructors a couple times to see if a change of face helped. When I flew with him, it seemed to me that he was tense through the whole flight, though did gradually relax as it progressed.

I say that he doesn't think he's scared, because he talks like he does just fine at them etc. Whether he believes that or is just bluffing I can't tell.

In flight, it's his body language that shows his nerves. He's very tense, and makes jerky control movements, and seems to go into the maneuver with a "well if I really have to" reaction.

HelenD
6th Oct 2003, 02:01
Not sure if this will help or not but I was petrified of the wing drop in a Tommohawk stall that I screemed everytime it happend. My fear was that when the wing and nose dropped I would end up in a spin. My instructor cured my fear by explaining how to prevent the wing drop in the stall and he also got me to just throw the aircraft arround any way I wanted it cured me of most of my fear leaving just a healthy fear. I did pass my skills test in a tommohawk and have sinced had a demo spin. I found the spin was not as bad as I thought it would be.

Miles Magister
6th Oct 2003, 04:18
I have flown with a couple of students who were passed to me because they were afraid of stalling. I gave them the Stall 1 and Stall 2 sorties just as they teach it in the RAF, it does wonders for the understanding and it worked a treat on both occassions.

You need a copy of the RAF lesson and give that a try.

Ralgha
6th Oct 2003, 04:40
Where can I get a copy of that RAF lesson? I'd like to try that.

DFC
6th Oct 2003, 05:32
I recently did some stall revision - pre GFT with a student who I had not flown with before......what they did frightened the heck out of me!!........

Stall entery consisted of closing the throttle, starting into a loop, causing the aircraft to stall in about 45 deg nose up attitude and then recovery consisted of pushing over to almost vertical down!!!!! Wooooooaaaaaaaaaaa

How this student got to this stage without being scared amazed me :D

Getting rid of stalling fears:

1. Show that while lift decreases rapidly at the stalling angle of attack, it is still more that it was at a very low angle of attack.

2. Get the student very happy with slow flight at a safe height.

3. On the ground, at about 50% to 75% of the stall speed, demonstrate the effectiveness of the ailerons.....you can move the wing up and down slightly even in a breeze......you move the nose wheel on and off the ground at a speed below the stall.

4. Having provided the background, put the student back in the air at a safe height in slow flight. Ask them to very gently and slowly ease back the stick until the stall warner starts to sound then move the stick forward enough to stop the warning....some practice ad they can use the stick as a switch to turn the stall warning on and off.

5. Next step....with the stall warning on, ease the stick back until the buffet can be felt...then as above progress to a point where the stick is a switch turning the buffett on and off.

6. Do I have to explain the next step?

Points to remember....if it isn't stalled then it can't spin....prompt stall recovery at the first sign of wing drop is just as good as using rudder to stop the wing going further down.

If the sticking point is fear of a large wing drop or spin then take the aircraft to height, instructor holds the aircraft in a stall while the student uses the rudder to keep the wings level.....or as close to it as they can.

Test pilots enter the stall for the first time in gentle stages. At all times, deceleration is at about 1 knot per second i.e. from 60 to 40Kt takes a full 20 repetitions of "one thousand". We all I am sure agree that the standard training stall happens alot quicker than that...why?.......isn't the student in a similar position to the test pilot.....moving from the known to the unknown?

In short, students who are confident flying the aircraft in the slow flight area and recognise the symptoms will find it easier to empand into the slightly slower areas of flight.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

DFC

splatgothebugs
10th Oct 2003, 06:04
Speaking from experience, maybe look at getting your student to do an aerobatics rating. It will improve their handling skills, knowledge of the aircraft and how it reacts in different situations.

It was honestly the best thing I ever did and went onto instructing aeros prior to moving on.

In NZ it is quite common place to put training commercial pilots through aeros ratings for the above reasons. Give it a go you may find that it is all the student needs. :)

squire
10th Oct 2003, 10:23
Aerobatic Flight:)

fireflybob
14th Oct 2003, 22:29
I have been thinking about this topic quite a bit over the last few days.

How do you overcome the fear of anything?

FEAR is merely an acrostix for False Evidence Appearing Real

Fear also keeps you alive - a certain amount is a good thing.

There is a good book called "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway" which is worth a read. Sheer exposure to whatever it is you are fearful of can eventually be the path to enlightenment.

My experience is that when a student is fearful of a manoeuvre this is often because there has been some event in the past which has put him off or maybe he has been listening to some "bar - talk" so I would probe as to why it is that he is fearful. Fear can tranmit light light waves so if the instructor is not 100% at ease the student will pick this up.

I certainly agree that aerobatics are a good way to breed confidence. My father, who was a veteran instructor of many years, often got students doing loops before they went solo!

kabz
15th Oct 2003, 02:08
One thing to try might be to absolutely make sure that the student is not scared of some PART of the recovery.

What about keeping the ball straight ?

Is the student really scared/uncertain of using the rudder to pick the wing up ?

Is the student uncertain of exactly what to do in the recovery ?

What about stall recovery speed ?

What about how far to drop the nose on recovery ?

What about cleaning up after a stall ?

It sounds a little like the student is anticipating being scared, which probably makes it hard for you to put your finger on what the problem is.

As far as power on stalls go, you could maybe try using lower power settings to provoke the stall, this might help to ease the student into it a bit.