A couple of questions about Visas to and learning to fly in the USA.

[EchoIndia]

Hi Guys an' Gals

A couple of questions about Visas to and learning to fly in the USA.

Here in Ireland the only information about this is through a phone number that costs 2 Euros per minute and that is just recorded info – so I can’t ask specific questions etc.
First my situation…
Training for a PPL with 20 hours and not solo yet! I’m getting pretty miffed about this. So am considering going to the USA or even elsewhere.

1 – Considering where I am in my training is it worth going to the USA to finish my training?

2 – Could I go on a holiday/waiver visa, check out various flight schools while over there, decide on one and then apply while there for the M-1 visa to learn to fly?

3 – I have not decided which license to go for (FAA or JAA). My first goal is to get the PPL and then maybe thru CPL to Instructor (JAA). The FAA PPL is cheaper than a JAA PPL in the USA so how do I decide which PPL to go for? What questions should I be asking of myself?
Things that I’m thinking about are:
Europe and Ireland seems to be better for employment (or am I mistaken?). So if I learn at home or get a JAA PPL in the USA I’d have a better grasp of the basics from a European perspective.
People have said that with regard to training) the attitude in the USA is different – in what way?

4 - I have the Trevor Thom books and so can study at home before I go (as people recommend) but I guess the FAA Law exam is different, so can you tell me if this exam can be studied for in a short period of time – ie a month while learning to fly.

5- Do clubs in the USA accept foreign students to join for a month, learn to fly and then go back home? Would this course of action be OK?

6 – My passport is out of date in August 2004. Does anyone know if this would be a problem in getting a visa?

Thanks in advance for any input
EI

[pittss2b]

Pilot training outside of the USA...consider Canada. Cheaper, better standards, with no visa/paper work hassels.

[FlyingForFun]

I will answer all your questions as best I can, but really the only people who can give you a definitive answer would be the US Embassy in Ireland. I know the US Embassy here in London has a very good website, I assume the Irish equivalent does too.

1. Why are you not solo after 20 hours? If it's the standard of your instruction, then change either your instructor or, if necessary, your school. If you're not the most naturally gifted pilot in the world, then stick with it, you'll get there eventually and probably be better for it. The only reason I can think that going to America would help get you solo is if the problem is weather delays.

2. I think you have to have the Visa before you leave - I don't think there's any way to apply for it once you're there. I'm not certain on this, though. Generally, you will need to find a school which is authorised to accept students on an M1 Visa - they will have to issue you with some forms (I forget the number of the forms) which you will need to take to the US Embassy. Only a minority of schools (those which specialise in training foreign students) will be able to issue you with these forms. So simply turning up and seeing how you feel is unlikely to work.

3. It sounds like you don't have the right to work in the US - in which case an FAA CPL isn't going to be very useful. Go for the JAR license.

4. The US exams are different to ours. I haven't been through this myself, so I don't know the details, but I think there is just one exam which covers everything, and the entire question bank is available beforehand which makes it very easy. However, they make up for this by giving you a much more in-depth aural exam as part of the skills test. If you decide to go to the US, I'm sure your school would be well-placed to advise you.

5. Yes. In fact, as I said in answer to your second question, you may find that you have to use a club where this is the norm in order to get the Visa.

6. Depends when you wan the Visa for! Can't remember the rules on this one though.

FFF
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[Charlie Zulu]

Hi EchoIndia,

> 2 – Could I go on a holiday/waiver visa, check
> out various flight schools while over there, decide
> on one and then apply while there for the M-1
> visa to learn to fly?

Nope... visitors to the USA on the Visa Waiver scheme are NOT eligible to change their status whilst in the USA. This must be done outside of the USA.

Besides I wouldn't like to try it as being deported from the USA wouldn't be a good idea.

> 4 - I have the Trevor Thom books and so can
> study at home before I go (as people recommend)
> but I guess the FAA Law exam is different, so can
> you tell me if this exam can be studied for in a
> short period of time – ie a month while learning to
> fly.

There is no such thing as an FAA Law exam. The FAA PPL has 1 written exam. That one exam has ALL subjects contained within and has a 70% pass mark. It is pretty easy but get yourself a copy of Gliem written test prep book (its a big red book with ALL of the questions and answers in it). Or the King Video course of something similar.

Your FAA instructor will need to sign you off in your logbook before you can take the written test, so you will probably have to satisify him/her that you are ready to take the test.

Okay saying that there is only one FAA PPL written exam is a bit of a misnomer, there is also an easy pre-solo exam which needs to be completed before your instructor will endorse your student certificate (on the back of your FAA Class 3 medical) to go solo.

However as FFF says the FAA Private Flight Test does include a very thorough Oral exam. I've not done the FAA Private flight test / oral exam but if its anything like the FAA CPL and IR oral exams then expect an hour or two of very thorough grilling from your examiner.

> 5- Do clubs in the USA accept foreign students to
> join for a month, learn to fly and then go back home?
> Would this course of action be OK?

Umm, yup! But you'll have to go to a school which has the authority to issue the I-20M form, which normally means they are used to having international students studying at their school.

In order to issue I-20M forms the schools needs access to the ISEAS Immigration computer system as the I-20M form is computer generated from there.

More detailed information can be found at:

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/iseas.htm

> 6 – My passport is out of date in August 2004. Does
> anyone know if this would be a problem in getting a
> visa?

Some countries have an agreement with the USA whereby the requirement for your passport to be valid for six months beyond your date of departure from the U.S. is waived if you are travelling on a visa.

Had my visa issued in the last week of June. Travelled to the USA with the M-1 visa tucked inside my passport on the 3rd of July and returned to the UK on the 3rd of August, my passport expired on the 26th August.

The following link is where you can obtain a list of countries which have this agreement:

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/sixmonth.htm

Ireland is on the list, but as this is taken from the London US Embassy website, I would check with the US Embassy in Ireland (Dublin?) before applying just to double check.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Irv]

F-F-F wrote:
1. Why are you not solo after 20 hours?

FFF is right - That is the question to answer first! If it's you, you're better off sticking with instructors who are patiently 'working on you' - if you go to a 'guaranteed' outfit in the USA you might end up with a licence to kill (yourself and others). However if it's the weather, school, instructor, etc then by all means look around, and of course 'from the frying pan into the fire' comes to mind.

The problem with your first PPL course is always that 'hindsight' is needed before it's apparently avaiilabe, and if you are learning abroad, support afterwards.

As lots of people are now considering the S.African option (for many reasons, including cost, quality, better match to UK concepts, credit for training already done and, perhaps important for you, no training visa), there is a site which can be used to 'farm' hindsight from pilots who trained in SA and provide a general support for newbies coming back - mentoring, flyins, newsletter, visits. UK SA Community (http://www.uksa.flyer.co.uk) (There are already a couple of Irish guys on the site as it has become British Isles rather than UK!).

You shouldn't have any problems using a SA PPL here or converting to JAA or even going onto a JAA CPL course with it, as the site will explain.

You'll see from the site where everyone trained, and I was very happy with my choice. Contact me if you want more info. Beware there is the 'odd' bad apple in any country - USA, SA, etc, so if you decide to leave your current trainer for anywhere abroad, the basic rules are usually - don't pay anything more than a 'token' in advance, don't pay any agent a penny, find more than one former pupil for references.

[CIPO]

Hows it going,

Continuity may be a problem if you still not solo after 20hrs, ie doing an hour here an hour there.
I'd go the JAA route in the states. I got mine done in 3 weeks after doing 8hrs(including 1st solo) in Ireland beforehand.
I did it at Britannia in Winter Haven, Florida.( They are now in lakeland).
Get the PPL confuser(you can have mine), it has most of the question bank for the exams so you can study befrore you go out. The TT books are great but you'll never get to know(or need to!) everything thats in them.

What school to go to??
Just get in contact with someone who has been recently to where you are considering.

Good luck:ok:

[EchoIndia]

Thanks folks for all the feedback and apologies for the delay in getting back. Please allow me to reply to you all at once.
1 – 20hrs not solo – I have been flying regularly and the weather has not been a consistent problem. Of course there is no one reason for not being solo after 20hrs. A few of them are:
Myself, the way I learn and as one guy has told me lately - I get flustered (sometimes when on short-final my airspeed is not stabilised) trying to do a number of things at the same time and not really separating the stages of flight. I can handle and fly a plane fine I have the motor skills. My training has been in some way to blame. E.g. an instructor I have not flown with has told me to use trim which I have not been doing. My usual instructor knows that I can trim but has said that you don't really need to trim - to get everything else sorted and I’ll have more time to spend trimming whilst solo. This makes sense and suited me fine but now I realise that trimming stabilises the plane and allows time for you to take care of other things. In my eagerness to fly I have not waited for my usual instructor to be free so I’ve had different guys teaching me which is not the best as they all have different personalities and likes and dislikes which gives you a broad spectrum of knowledge but can confuse the issue a bit at times. Also other things in my life outside of flying have had an effect my learning process (concentration and focus etc).
This is one of the reasons why I'm thinking about going to the USA to learn. But I get on very well with the guys at the school and that is hard to dismiss.
I’ll check out SA (which might be too expensive now and I’m not into living in a compound).
Canada is an option but so also is Argentina.. mmm South America!.
I know people who went to a number of places in Florida and each one liked the place the trained at so I’m still undecided but NAC, OFT and FAA are the choices. I need more info about California before I chose a place there and the only one I see recommended is Anglo American Aviation in San Diego.

2 - From reading Richards (NAC) sticky on the visa situation – It seems that I could go on a B visa and then apply for the M-1 visa. Of-course I want to do this legally.

Thanks for the info and advice about the exams especially the in-depth oral exam (which I had not heard about) and books, schools, visa and passport.

Thanks CIPO but I have the PPL Confuser ordered.
Thanks again guys and if you can offer an more advice then please do.
EI

[Crepello]

:confused:

I'm amazed your instructor told you not to worry about trimming. It's easy to learn, makes the flight more enjoyable, and dramatically reduces your workload. More significantly, you should be doing it as part of the engine-failed procedure so that maintaining the right airspeed is less effort. If I were you, I'd tackle my instructor about this asap.

Regarding your other points: Hitting the US for a month would be no problem with most flying schools; this is pretty normal for European students. I did the FAA PPL at a certain Long Beach FBO, had a great time and can thoroughly recommend the flying. (and the bars, and the blondes... ;) ) PM me if you want more details.

[EchoIndia]

Well the instructor knows that I can trim so maybe he was being easy on me and not wanting to overload me with things to do. We have both agreed that you learn loads when you are solo and he is confident in my flying and wanted to get me solo as soon as possible. Am I making excuses for him? Going for a solo checkride with a CFI "judging" my flying does make me uneasy which affects how competent I seem.
Part of the reason I'm doing the PPL is for personal development and so all this is good learning but it's a pity that it's costing me so much!

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi EchoIndia,

Not wishing to change the topic of this thread, but just some points on landing and trimming.

Are you having problems in judging the start of the flare etc? If has your instructor taken you to a nice long runway and flown the entire length of the runway at flare height / speed / attitude so you can get the "picture". It worked for me no wonders and a couple of hours later I was solo.

As for trimming. I can't believe your instructor has told you not to bother with trimming. If the aircraft isn't in trim you'll be fighting it all the way down the approach, ie it'll want to adopt the attitude it is trimmed for at all times. As it'll probably be nose down trim, you'll be fighting the aircraft on approach trying to keep the nose up... this in turn makes problems in the flare where you have to use more elevator back pressure than is absolutely necessary to flare the aircraft in order not to land nose wheel first.

A properly trimmed aircraft makes for a nice stabilised approach which will also probably sort your airspeed problem out.

My instructors (I had a few due to instructor holidays etc) all told me to trim. Their motto was trim trim trim. You'll know what trimming an aeroplane means when doing your IR training! ;-)

Edit: I am not an instructor yet so take what I say with a pinch of salt!

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[FlyingForFun]

EI,

It sounds like moving to the US is not really going to help you.

From what you've said, I would suggest asking your school if you could change instructor, permanently. Have a friendly chat with your instructor, explain to him that you're not progressing as fast as you like. Tell him that you don't have any problem with him personally, or even with his instructing style, but you're hoping that a change of instructor (and some continuity with a new instructor) might give you the jolt you need to get over the plateau, and that you hope there are no hard feelings. Then tell the school the same thing, and make sure you get to choose an instructor who you're comfortable with.

Of course, you could change schools, or even change country, and get a new instructor that way - but why bother if you're happy with every other aspect of your training?

As for trimming to land, I agree with other posters - having the aircraft trimmed makes everything else a whole load easier. If you change instructor, this would be the perfect time to get another instructor's opinion, though - and that would count for much more than my opinion since I'm not an instructor and I've never flown with you.

FFF
-----------------

[strafer]

Pretty much all of the above posts have given you good advice. I'll let you know how I 'conquered' my problems with landing. Basically - get things done as early as possible!

My problems were all to do with 'chasing' the control and running out of time to have a stablised approach. On downwind, do your pre-landing checks a little earlier than normal, get your height & airspeed stable and flap position set (then trim!) so that you are not adjusting anything major before you make your base turn. Now relax. On base, get all the above done (then trim!) well before your turn to downwind. Now relax. On downwind as above, then just watch as you have loads of time to let your stable aircraft float itself down to the runway. Trying to remember everything you need to do when it's not second nature is what makes you flustered and leaves you short on time.

To lessen your multi-tasking, get your instructor to do the R/T etc until you increase your confidence, and practice, practice, practice

[jockeymon]

Visa`s aren`t necessary for any vacational trips from the UK (and i suspect Ireland but am not certain).This means that going to the US for "recreational" flying doesn`t require a visa.Friends have been across and taken CPL exams and used the argument that because the exams can`t be used in the US (as they have no right to work there) they are purely "recreational" trips and are "testing them selves.As for myself I did a FAA PPL and told the imigration personel at the airport that I was visiting the country for the purposes of recreational flying, they were more than happy to let me into the US on a visa waiver.

[FlyingForFun]

Jockeymon,

The experiences of you and your friends just go to prove what I have been saying for the last couple of years: the immigration officers don't know the rules in detail, and can't be expected to know them along with all the intricacies of aviation and aviation training.

The only thing which counts is the way the immigration officer who sees you on the day interprets the rules. In the case of you and your friends, I think the immigration officer got it wrong - none of you should have been let in, but you were lucky. It's just as likely to work the other way, where you will be turned down for not having a Visa even if you require one.

There is no doubt that the intention of the US government is that you should not be able to enter the country to do any training for any aviation license or rating. There is also very little doubt that there is nothing to be lost, and possibly lots to be gained, by having a Visa, even if you are eligable to enter the country under the Visa Waiver Program and you are genuinely only going to be flying for recreational purposes.

FFF
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[EchoIndia]

CZ – landing and flare height - Good point - I don’t really have a problem with landing the plane apart from the airspeed problem. Initially I did have a problem with the “picture”. After I got it I knew that I was too eager to land the plane (everything was geared towards that) but I should have been concentrating on flying the plane at flare height. Also I like your attitude – “WHEN you’re doing your IR training”!


I now realise and agree with you all about trimming and having a stabilised approach etc.

FFF – thanks for the advice on how to handle the situation with my instructor. He’s a good guy with a can do attitude which instils confidence plus he is fun to fly with as opposed to the other guys I’ve flown with who tell me “don’t do that do this, why are you doing that why aren’t you doing this” etc. Of course none of what they say is wrong it’s just the way they have of saying it – or maybe it’s my sensitive nature :)

Strafer – nice one, “chasing” the instruments/control can be a problem, note to myself – be ahead of the a/c and get the picture/fly visually! Flap extended on downwind – might be good to try out but then I’d have to re-do everything on base leg i.e. retrim for the new configuration when descending. I currently reduce rpm with carb heat hot just before turning onto base.

Jockeymon – fair dues for trying that and getting away with it. When did you go and where did you fly in the USA?


Another question folks
If I went to the USA and passed the flight test but not all the ground exams could I resit the exam here in Europe and then have my PPL?

[strafer]

EI,

Yeah, my post was based on a PA28 and no descending base turn, I think you got the jist though.

Re Flight test in USA (or anywahere else) before ground exams passed - don't think it's possible. Skills test is taken after all exams successfully passed I believe.

PS If you do go to the USA, a certain school of my aquaintance would try and pass pupils with hours already logged, in less than 45 hours - even though they payed the same price as pupils with none. (It was in the very small print). If you do go, either negotiate the full set or say you have zero. (You can always add them in afterwards)

[EchoIndia]

strafer
>>Yeah, my post was based on a PA28 and no descending base >>turn, I think you got the jist though.
I sure did, I was being picky I suppose.

So could I sit the exams in Ireland and do the training in the USA?

[strafer]

So could I sit the exams in Ireland and do the training in the USA?
Short answer, yes. So long as all training & groundschool take place at JAA approved schools, it doesn't matter where they are.

You seem pretty keen on going to the US to finish, and having done my PPL in Florida it's something I would recommend. I went with no hours and a total ignorance of how aeroplanes worked, but I managed to do everything in 3 weeks. Your 20 hours would give you a head start so there's no reason why you couldn't do the same.

[jockeymon]

EchoIndia,
I did my flying in Tulsa Oklahoma (and PPL tests) in June/July of this year and would heartily recommend it to anyone good weather if not very hot.Social life/amusement parks may not be up to Florida/Caloifornia standards but the flying conditions can`t be faulted.

[EchoIndia]

Thanks to all you guys who replied - pprune sure is a great site!
I'll start a new hread when I've more questions and time.
Cheers
EI