controllers with broken english

[RUDAS]

How do you cope with controllers with broken english? this is obviously a considerable safety issue, but it must also lead to some very funny exchanges. What have your experiences been...

[Loc-out]

Yes, 90% of the French controllers speak with broken English. When indeed they speak English, that is.

[loulou]

Maybe 90% of the french controllers speak english but I am sure that les than 10% of the english controllers speak a foreign language.

[robmac]

Personally I have a lot of fun with the Indonesian controllers.
Funnily enough it doesn't seem to make much difference whether I understand or not....:uhoh:

[av8boy]

How do you cope with controllers with broken english?
You mean like at Manchester? :D

I am horrified that I was the first one to take that sort of jab... :confused:

Dave

[chiglet]

Ey oop lad, we tark proper oop ere, tha knows
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Loc-out]

loulou

Yes, an old argument this.

As I understand it, it is an ICAO agreement/requirement that the aviation language was to be English. Or is it the case the French and French speakers have made exemptions, to suit themselves.

This, to me explains why the UN for instance, are a complete and utter shambles and in the most part are a waste of f:mad: g money. One of the main causes of this, is there has to be certain conditions for the French and French speaking hangers on, over and above what has been agreed by everyone else.

A common language cannot even be enforced as agreed within aviation, so what can be agreed of any consequence which involves the new master race of Europe???

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

<<<
Ey oop lad, we tark proper oop ere, tha knows
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
>>>

Chiglet, I'd have thought for once you'd want to change your "handle" to :

" 'Appen, we eeim tuh please, it keeps' cleaners chuffed."

[Basil]

Arriving @ MAN a month ago:

ATC (presumably to light a/c): G-****, what are your intentions?
G-****: Eeh, ah don't raatly know. There's weather all around us.

Hope you made it OK, G-**** :)

[cossack]

GCC
Funny thing is, Chig actually talks like that!!!!! Except for his posh ATIS voice!!!!
Chiglet
Keep counting down the days!!! All the best...

[chiglet]

Cheers you young whipersnapper
same to you
we aim t'pleeease laike, cus it keeps t'cleeaner 'appy, tha'knows

[crab]

Wasn't aviation invented by the English speaking world,Cayley,Wright Bros. et al. Therefore the appropriate language should be English.

Still fishing.

[priscilla]

:( you talk about broken english...and the first answer...is about french people......??? What's the problem with us??? I think english training is better and better for french ATC...and french is a ICAO language, as well than spanish, russian, and so on....
I don't mind if you want to joke about our funny accent...it makes me laugh too! BUt stop complaining about french people speaking french....:oh:

[Spodman]

Hey Crab, if we follow your theory we would have to take note of WHERE in the English speaking world flight started, and all hold our noses when we speak.

For the same reasons should jet drivers only speak German?:8

[Fancy Navigator]

Well done, Loulou, Priscilla and Spodman. Loc-out is another typical example of narrow-mindedness...:ouch: :} It is time to open your eyes, Loc-out....:rolleyes:
Although English is the aviation language, it has also been agreed that other languages could be used (such as French and others...). The French are not the only ones to use their own language for ATC communications, but obviously, they are an easy target...
Let's pretend, for one second, that here in the UK, we would have to be speaking, let's say, Russian, to fly and communicate with ATC... ah ah!!! :=
Most French controllers can speak English (even in provincial towns!!)... Look at all the Ryanair flights to small places like Rodez (where you only have E airspace) where they never have international traffic: I am sure the controllers do speak English...
The irony is that even "some english speakers do not understand English-speaking ATC because they speak too fast and it is not pronounced properly"... quoted by a friend who is an English tutor (obviously specialised in tyhe English language) and who flies regularly. He flew to France a couple of times and always says that the English of the French controllers was crystal clear and totally readable;) ....Where is the mistake?
Loc-out, You are the weakest link, goodbye...

[Crash1]

Why should everyone speak the same language?

Well because ATC can make mistakes, I have been in paris cleared to line up from an intersection when a French aircraft has been cleared to take off from the full length. Fortunatley I speak french. I'm sure also that we all remember what hapeened one foggy day at paris when the English pilot didn't.

In Germany they manage to speak english for all clearances but sometimes revert to german if the query is more complicated, would it be that difficult for the french to operate on this basis.

Though really why have this debate at all we all know the french will all do exactly as they like with little interest in everyone else.

[crab]

Spodman

I believe the Germans got their ideas for the jet engine from the patents of Sir Frank Whittle but I am not 100% certain so undoubtedly someone will put me in my place if I am wrong.

still fishing.

[Scottie]

Fancy Navigator.

You speak of narrow mindedness with regard to us complaining about French ATC speaking French.

How about narrow mindedness of the French involved in the killing of the Shorts 360 pilot at Paris who was cleared to enter the runway at CDG whilst the same controller cleared IN THE FRENCH LANGUAGE a French aircraft to take off on the same runway.

Had the controller spoken english then maybe the pilot would have had better spatial awareness and still be hear today. :sad:

However, as usual, French pride should over-ride any safety considerations. :mad:

The Germans, Dutch & Danish are happy to speak English and their controlling is to a very high standard. They don't seem to deem speaking english a threat to their cultural identity.

[josephshankes]

Very well put indeed chaps.

I could not have dreamt of putting it better myself.

A very serious issue this. Something that involves safety.

[ZRH]

In Germany all coordination between controllers, be it on the phone or intercom, is all done in english. This way they make sure that there are no misunderstandings. Maybe the french could learn something from that.
I dont think there are many ATCs in Germany who have actually learnt the phraseology in german. Maybe some of the older ones will be able to say a phrase or two, but certainly none of the younger guys.

[loulou]

Hi

Followings critics concerning my post,

Aviation owes a lot to the french culture, for example,
the word "aviation"comes from the french word "avion" wich means airplane.
so YES, THE FRENCHS INVENTED AVIATION:cool:

Also the word "ailerons" comes from the french word "aile" wich means wing, have you already flown an aircraft without aileron, of course not, so you can say thanks you to the frenchs:ok: for putting ailerons on your wings.

VIVE LA FRANCE:D

[priscilla]

I do agree with you. But we first have to increase the english level among French pilots and ATC...LFPG ATC made a try with all english frequency...and they stopped quickly ! I don't know really why...it seems that they had comprehension problems with AF pilots...So it was a safety problem too!!! I think we will talk again later about speaking only english! I think general aviation is a big problem too. it will kill it to request a high english level from all pilots.
Of course we love our language...but we like to learn and to speak other languages too... and you? Im sure you're not proud at all :rolleyes:

[wellthis]

I do agree that sometimes the english speaking folks get creative and deviate from the standard terminology, but speaking two different languages in the same terminal area is far more dangerous. The problem in French-speaking skies is exactly that, when you hear a sentence and then your call sign. They're obviously talking about your location/altitude/intentions...but you have no clue what they are saying. It is completely unsafe how they are allowed to do that. My French speaking FO once tried chatting en Francais, to which I showed no tolerance.

Hats off to most European or even Arab countries for communicating in English even amongst themselves most of the times, but in France they never speak English to a French-speaking pilot. Of course the roots of most words are French and not Latin which is the mother of most European languages. Once a friend tried to convince me that 'week-end' was French! I'll be happy to learn another language, but I just wish people decide on something and then 'just do it'!

[Jerricho]

It only took a couple of weeks to kick this one off again. The "yeah but French is an ICAO language", "we invented aviation". Next it will be "we fly an Airbus, so we're going to speak French.......Well we fly a Boeing, so we'll speak American" (God help us all!). And lets look at this senario: French speaking carrier in confliction with english speaking carrier and avoiding action given. Instructions being barked at one pilot in french, the other guy sitting there thinking WTF???

On a visit to Montreal Centre earlier in the year and was listening in on their Terminal Speciality. It was very strange hearing bi-lingual sequencing (admittedly, I was a little hung-over and I'm easily confused). But, IMHO I wouldn't like to be a pilot entering TMA airspace with Engligh and French instructions being thrown about. Fair dues to the controllers who do it, but situational awareness in the air, hmmmmmm.

On a lighter note, I heard a story last night about a certain French Aer Lingus pilot who has adopted the paddy "Good luck!" on changing frequencies. Nice one :ok:

[Lucifer]

English has more roots in Germanic languages than in French.

Surely we should be blaming the education system that allows us to drop languages so early in school, and does not teach it early in primary school when languages can be most easily assimilated.

Europe used to publish everything in (I believe) three languages. The EU no longer publish in any other language than English, as this became too costly. The French seem happy with that.

Perhaps the onus should be on ICAO and not the French per se who are allowed by the ICAO rules to use mixed languages in this way, to ensure that only English, or whatever should be the clearance language with an emphasis on poor weather. The French do not break the rules.

Don't be so petty, and broaden your mind by learning another language.

[ZRH]

Next it will be "we fly an Airbus, so we're going to speak French.......Well we fly a Boeing, so we'll speak American"


I hope the Tupolev guys dont read that sentence. :cool:

[Jerricho]

Perhaps the onus should be on ICAO and not the French per se who are allowed by the ICAO rules to use mixed languages in this way, to ensure that only English, or whatever should be the clearance language with an emphasis on poor weather. The French do not break the rules.

Lucifer, you are so right. I don't think people intentionally imply the French break the rules, more along the lines of safety issues associated with bi-lingual ATC services. Perhaps frustration steams from the fact that aircrew and controllers can speak english?

But, and I acknowledge I am guilty as well, it's easy to fall into French bashing. To further the discussion, would there be international outcry if ICAO were to stipulate that english was to become the only language to be used?

[Lemurian]

Lucifer
Would you please click on the following links,as I think they're -coul be - an eye-opener to a lot of PPruners.The estimated cost of translation and interpretation is,as you said ENORMOUS but it required to be better known.
ibeurope.com/Database/Factsheets/F048lang.htm
http://europa.eu.int

I just played a game which was to erase the french-originated words of one paragraph of your latst post and it now reads like this :
"we should be the that allows us to drop so early and does not teach it early in when can be".
I agree with the rest of your post.

Crash1
I would be really interested in having the details and date of the incident you refrer to and whether you filed a report.
Mind you,I for one am all for an all-english ATC/RT procedure in all international airports,but face it ,we shall have to get IFALPA on this and in the mean time,we shall have to bear with language idiosyncracies from all over the world,including the US...
Regards

[Lucifer]

I always believed that it had been reduced to English for many non-public documents due to the cost. I don't think those links verify the validity of this or not - I was not as specific as I could have been.

[Loftie]

Never mind ATC, I have the same problem understanding some Ryanair pilots. Don't know where they're from.

[Lemurian]

Lucifer
You are not getting away that easily.
Europe used to publish everything in (I believe) three languages. The EU no longer publish in any other language than English, as this became too costly
As you can see in the document,there are ELEVEN official languages in the EU.The Commission is still using the three procedural languages you probably referred to:French,German and English.
The cost of the translation/interpretation IS STILL being borne by the EU citizens to the amount of €690 million.
Regards

[strafer]

It's understandable that the French are miffed that English is the world's lingua franca (tee hee). But what are you going to do, change history? We got Nelson & Wellington - you got the short-arsed Corsican with the tiny todger.

On a slightly more serious note, the very fact that the French & Belgian posters are writing their posts in English kind of proves the point. Domestically, people should use & be proud of their language, vive la difference and all that, but any international ATC communications should be in one language. As Esperanto never took off due to it being rubbish, the only language that fits the bill is English.

Laissez-faire? Non, merci.

[Fancy Navigator]

It is a shame some people still think they are in the middle ages... and still mention the old English/French rivalry...:hmm: :bored: It is time mentalities evolve! Remembering Nelson and Napoleon is a bit obsolete.... it would be a bit like remembering the Germans or the Japanese for WW2... This is the past, it is time to move on!
Oh, and by the way, I think that, here in the UK, we forget that if "AMERICAN" English is the international language nowadays, it is obviously thanks to the Americans (basically, after WW2), not thanks to ourselves.... worth considering....;) we are not as important as we like to think...

PS: The fact that the French and Belgian posters write in the forum in English actually shows us they try to communicate with other people in another language, which some of us, in the UK, do not seem to do...
How many times people said "What is the point in learning a foreign language, everybody in the world speaks English"....?
(Regards to all of you in the forum who love languages, communication, people, different cultures and are broad minded :cool: :) :D and to Lucifer who's got it right:ok:

[Loc-out]

I agree we should not dwell in the past.

However we must not forget this fact. If it wasn't for our American friends and the allies in the '40's there would not be too much French spoken today.

The whole point of a common language for ATC is to try and keep aircraft apart, both on the ground and in the air.

[priscilla]

just a word to you Fancy Navigator
MERCI
;)

[18-Wheeler]

Flew from Hong Kong to Kuala Lumpur yesterday, and passing through Ho Che Mihn's airspace, there was a female controller - I could understand perhaps one word in ten she was saying.
Fortunately I was flying so I didn't have to talk to her ...

I was sorely tempted to ask her if "Do you have another radio & voice you could try?"
Thought better of it though .... :)
Pretty much everyone else was having a lot of trouble with her as well.

[wellthis]

I think nowadays most sub-consciously agree that although we are one people and may be united, but all should also celebrate their culture and its uniqueness and that our differences make this (blue) planet a much more beautiful place.

But ... the discussion at hand is about the common language of aviation and its implications on safety. There were clearly two ways: one was to invent a new language which perhaps borrowed a little bit from many languages and was easy to learn, as in Esperanto (it might still be a choice for a Universal auxiliary language as it is far from dead), or two was to choose from the existing ones. If a language has been selected to be communicated in the skies of our global village, then it should be practiced by all parties, including the ones that might have voted against it. Otherwise, the spirit of unity is broken by not enforcing the decision of the majority, not to mention the safety risks which were the reason for making such decision in the first place.

It is important for every one to speak at least one other language which helps us understand one another better, especially if it were a common International Auxiliary Language spoken by all. Today, that language has become the American-English; however in due time, it would be more befitting for the peoples of the world to either select or invent one. The universal participation in its selection will likely make its implementation more acceptable to all, however in the meantime and as far as AVIATION is concerned, every one has to keep their end of the bargain and communicate only in English on the radio.

[Jerricho]

At the risk sounding blase', the French do it because they can?!

Nice.

[strafer]

I know there isn't a smiley for 'tongue-in-cheek' but I thought it was obvious that that was how the start of my original post was phrased. Obviously not.

It wasn't a post about 'foreigner-bashing'. But the facts are because of the 19th century British Empire and 20th century American cultural hegemony, English is the closest thing to a 'world' language. So for saftey reasons and no other, should be the only language for international ATC comms.

As it happens, I do speak another language fluently - Dutch. The reason I don't post on this international BB in it, is because 99.5% of the readers wouldn't have a clue what I was saying.

Vive la difference and vliegen lekker!

[yachtpilot]

A few years ago while operating a radar mapping survey aircraft in a European country ( not France ) my survey area encroached on the ILS approach path to a fairly quiet ... non radar, medium sized airport...Radar mapping work can be carried on in ( non-turbulant ) IMC conditions and ATC were well informed as to our work area and were constantly requesting updates on our position. Periodically ATC used their own language .... we presumed for communications that did not affect us....
crossing the ILS approach at 90 deg. we suddenly exited from cloud into the clear to find a Fokker 100 very close on a definate colision course in our 10 o'clock...ATC had forgotton our last position and track report and cleared him for the approach in the local language. He broke into a very steep climbing turn left and I broke sharp right...the miss was very close..the turn he made bordered on aerobatics and I can imagine his pasengers being in a state of shock.... The pilot certainly sounded shaken when he finally calmed down enough to talk again....

It was to avoid this kind of incident and accident that the one language rule came into effect.....I'm not against controllers and pilots of the same nationality using their own language when there are no foreign aircraft on frequency... that would be churlish....but once there is a non local aircraft on frequency then the rule MUST apply....for better or worse the language of the air is English.....those of us flying today didn't decide this but like all the other rules that affect our safety... we should abide by it.

[Rananim]

I dont think that argument works as we have many examples of just how badly things can go wrong when English is being used.I have NEVER found flying in French airspace the slightest bit dangerous.It is a beautiful language and the French are naturally proud of it.

[yachtpilot]

Rananim...


If you don't think that an argument for safety works I sincerely hope that you have no access to the controls of an aeroplane.
An incident is a precursor to an accident...
I don't give a monkeys how ' beautiful ' a language is people should not be dying to allow its wrongful use...Persian is arguably the most beautiful language of the modern world but we don't use it in the air..
get your head together or stay away from the sky.

[FougaMagister]

Yes, we should all be speaking a common language on the airwaves, so... why not have French as the unique aviation language? Just a thought.

To get the record straight, the Streamline/Air Liberte runway collision in CDG a few years ago happened because ATC cleared an Air Liberte MD-83 to take off after they had cleared the Streamline Shed to cross the runway. Language was only a contributory factor, the main reason for the collision was a wrong clearance. There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language. After all, aviation's worst ever collision - the 1977 Tenerife North accident between a Pan Am and a KLM 747 (577 fatalities) happened even though everyone spoke English.

As an anecdote, I was recently ferrying an aircraft across the Channel, and while I contacted Paris Information in French, the female ATCO kept answering in English because... my registration started with G!

Cheers

[yachtpilot]

I also... out of courtesy... will use a local language to say Good morning....the essential information following should be there for all to understand...
Citing the Tenerife disaster as an example does you no credit whatsoever....the problem was partly that the contollers English was so poor that the pilots were having trouble understanding him..A similar problem arose with a Dan Air aircraft in the Canary Islands some years back resulting in a collision with high ground. To argue that ' things go wrong anyway' is a fatuous argument... Being at the front of the aircraft it's in our interests to try to ensure that things don't go wrong.
On a stinking wet and dismal night watching businessmen climbing aboard the aircraft after a hard day I often think of the families waiting for them at home.....It's up to us to get them there...So go away and campaign all you like... the language of the air is English...until it changes, use it.

I'm beginning to see the value of Airline Psychometric tests..

[Jerricho]

There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language.

Of course there is not proof. However, had the Shed driver heard the MD80 being given takeoff clearance on the same runway alarm bells may have started. Quite often we have drivers who get to know the callsigns of other operators that arrive in the holds around the same time. I have had jets swapped from their normal stack to another because it was very busy. And, on issuing descent clearance to the guy who has swapped holds, the pilot in the hold that they both are usually in has broke in with a "Uhhh...were at FLXXX". That's the sort of airmanship and situational awareness some of us are getting at!

IMHO, we should be using one language. WHATEVER it is!

[yachtpilot]

Unbelievable that we're having to explain the blindingly obvýous...

And why is it we only hear this pathetic whinging from the French speakers...

[priscilla]

Fougamagister, the French Atc surely forgot you have spoken in french...and looking at your callsign, she called you in english...
(but she should have rememberd ;) )
It seems obvious that speaking only one language would bring a lot for safety...the problem is that everybody must be able to speak and understan this language properly!
If French atc had spoken english,we could have avoided some incidents or accidents but we could have created others due to misunderstanding in english.....
I think this is the reason why the "all english in frequency" try ended in Paris CDG...they had some problems with non native english speakers...and it was not a question of pride...stop with that now!!!!!

[yachtpilot]

Sorry Priscilla but that's no argument at all...The overriding factor from a purely safety point of view is that good communication is essential... it's up to the people in the industry to ensure that they are up to a required standard in this and other aspects of the job. Nobody is insisting that the proficiency in English should enable them to write a book... like waiters in a restaurant the requirement is very limited in the language ... most of the phrasing is repeated over and over again and easily understood...

[Flip Flop Flyer]

For safety reasons, and nothing else, there should be only one language in aviation. Presently that language is English. End of story, or is it? One could argue that a PPL on a local VFR flight flight should be allowed to communicate in the local language, as indeed is the case in many if not most countries.

However, a vast number of native English speakers have sadly fallen into the trap called "complacency" with regards to learning a foreign language. They feel they don't need it, since "everyone speaks English". The sad part is that they probably don't know what they are missing. I am writing this in what is my 3rd language. Danish being the first, German the second. Those 3 languages are mandatory from a very early age in school, and you will have to take English and either German, French or Spanish up to and including High School. I speak 3 languages fluently, and you could not begin to imagine the benefits it brings when travelling. Further, I am almost fluent in Swedish and Norwegian, understand a fair bit of French and Spanish, and am picking up on Dutch/Flemmish and Italian.

Now if the English were forced to take up language training in school, maybe they would not be quite so challenged when aviating in foreign skies, and would perhaps stop the endless and quite honestly disappointing bashing of anything "non-English", especially the French. The French have a deep understanding of the importance a language has on culture, and ferociously defend French. As well they should.

[Boss Raptor]

It is common practice at all Russian main Terminal Controls and Enroute centres for the Controller to have an english speaking translator working alongside them. Although one could argue that the Controller should speak good english and many do this is an extra safety consideration and I believe a common sense act on the part of the Russians who appreciate that language can be and is a problem...so on occasions it will be the translator you are hearing not the ATCO...

In the same way even the new 2 crew Russian aircraft, IL96, TU204 have a dedicated position for a radio operator which is always manned when the aircraft are used for international flights. Unfortunately the standard of english amongst Russian pilots is not good as for many years all R/T was done by a radio operator, but many are actively learning...

Trying/struggling to learn basic Russian at the moment I have nothing but admiration for their ATCO's and flight crews who have to operate in a foreign tongue...it cant be easy for anybody anywhere!

[Fancy Navigator]

Totally right, Flip Flop Flyer.... Speaking languages is not the best thing we can do here in the UK....
Cheers:)

[priscilla]

Imagine they decide to speak only english in Moscow...tomorrow!! It will be a big mess!! It's obvious here that we cannot DECIDE to speak only english..but we have to be well prepared!
Yachtpilot....NO we need more than the usual phraseology!!! We need to have studied english from college classe and we need a very long training for comprehension and talking....atc need to be ready to say anything in engligh when they need to...We must have a regular training too....it's not so easy and require a lot of time from us and money and organisation from administration.
I think having a native english speaker with us is a good thing for non usual phraseology (emergency or medical problem for exemple, Russians had a good idea...)
I love learning languages but it is very difficult to reach the level required for a safe atc service...As I said before, the level is rising in France and we have more opportunity to work on english....
Boss Raptor...I'm trying to learn Russian too....Hopefully we don't have to speak russian on frequency ;) so difficult!

[yachtpilot]

Nobody would deny the advantages of speaking more than one language.. practical and cultural advantages.. I do speak some Spanish and French...But stop screwing around with my life ( see my first posting ) and the lives of others with nonsence about culture..
Maybe we should all use the wrong frequencies... imagine the fun we could have not having a clue about what was going on around us....or maybe one of you would like to conact the relatives and loved ones of the dead pilot of the 360 and discuss the cultural advantages of speaking several languages...

[av8boy]

To get the record straight, the Streamline/Air Liberte runway collision in CDG a few years ago happened because ATC cleared an Air Liberte MD-83 to take off after they had cleared the Streamline Shed to cross the runway. Language was only a contributory factor, the main reason for the collision was a wrong clearance. There is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened in the same circumstances had the two aircraft (and ATC) been speaking the same language.
Actually, the shed was told to line up and wait number two. They were departing as well, but from an intersection rather than full length. Because of the angle of the taxiway they were unable to see the MD83 departing toward them.

Of course there is no proof whatsoever that it would not have happened had English (or French or Navajo or whatever the standard language is...) been spoken by all parties at all times. However, use of French did remove the last opportunity for the aircrew to stop this from happening. There was poor coordination in the tower and a raft of other things that went wrong, including the failure of the shed crew to ask a question when they were unsure about the clearance. However, the penalty for this error should not automatically be death. They were taxiing onto the runway for departure 1730 meters from the approach end of the runway which they could not see. Perhaps, just perhaps, hearing the controller say to another aircraft "cleared for takeoff runway 27" might have registered with them enough to prevent this from happening. It sure as hell didn't work out well the way it went down. I just think it's foolish to take aircrews out of the loop like this.

More details and perhaps a more articulate rant here (http://aviationpolicy.org/cdg_collision.asp)


Dave

Edited to give credit where credit is due... looking back over the thread I see that Jerricho said this before me. Apparently I liked it so much I even quoted him without realizing I was doing so. I guess plagiarism is the most sincere form of flattery, no?

[yachtpilot]

Dave...

Thank you for the clarification on the circumstances...nicely done.

In an age where aviation is becoming increasingly complex and demands on crew ever more focused on high levels of safety, something as obvious as a single language for communication should not even be considered as a subject for debate.

Language is no more than a tool... like any tool it has to be effective in its task and it has to be used correctly...I rather think that the fatuous objections to the tool made by some contributers here is less to do with the need for the tool...more to do with the country in which the tool was made...

As I said once before here...none of us flying today made the decision in favour of English being the accepted language...nevertheless, it is.

In all likelyhood.. if the decision was reconsidered by some safety commitee today I would be willing to bet that English again would be the language of choice .. for the very simple and obvýous reason that it is internationally the widest spoken language in the world. Either as a first language or as a chosen second language. ( Before anyone stars quoting China...I did say Internatonal )

[Jerricho]

Yachtpilot makes an excellent point. Anybody else care to make comment reference the big "what if" ICAO stipulated that English was to become the only international language of aviation? It has been suggested beofre, but danced around nicely!

[priscilla]

""Language is no more than a tool... like any tool it has to be effective in its task and it has to be used correctly..."
That's the point..using correctly a language that is not yours is not easy...before removing all the other tools, be sure everybody will be able to use the remaining one!
It would be interesting to know if Germans ATC have comprehension problems with German pilots...do they use their mother tongue sometimes?? Do you know if German pilots speak english in the cockpit?

[yachtpilot]

Sorry Priscilla but you're still missing the point...Nobody cares what language 2 pilots use to communicate in the cockpit...we DO care what goes on between THEM and ATC.
Yes it is unfortunate for those who are not native English speakers...it may be another hurdle to leap in aquiring a professional licence but learning to fly is difficult so is learning to fly instruments and learning systems and many many other aspects of modern aviation.....it's no excuse for not doing it properly...that is the only way to make it safe.

[priscilla]

Nobody cares what language 2 pilots use to communicate in the cockpit
It interests me!!! sorry! I also would like to know if German ATCs communicate in english...
Yachtpilot..I do agree with you, we have to use only one language on frequency..but only when ATCs and pilots are ready for that!!!
Look! It seems that you didn't understand properly what I said in all my posts..perhaps my english is not good enough to explain what I think.....hopefully I'm not speaking on a mike :)

[FougaMagister]

AV8Boy, thanks for the details of the CDG collision (I didn't want to clutter my own answer). If anything, they only serve to prove my point: aircraft accidents are the result of a long chain of events which taken separately, would not have ended up in an accident, but which taken together, made it inevitable.

That much is shown on every aircraft accident investigation - therefore I find it quite strange that a number of posts point fingers at the language issue without seeing the big picture like you.

Priscilla is quite right to underline that switching from one language to another would only displace the problem.

Cheers

[Jerricho]

I agree that many an incident is the result of a combination of adverse factors. And often new procedures/rules/SOP's are adopted (and I'm not just talking knee-jerk reactions) to prevent future occurences. If one link in the chain was broken, the outcome may have been very different. Why maintain the language link at all?

As controllers AND pilots alike are indicating here and in previous threads, it is the feeling of many that a standardised "language" is adopted. Situational awareness of ALL parties who can hear and understand all ATC instructions and responses is THE BIG PICTURE.

This thread has (thankfully) gone beyond the smattering of xenophobia that started rearing it's ugly head. Saftey and "national pride" should be mutually exclusive.

[priscilla]

We will be proud of or special french-english-accent.... :D

[Rananim]

yachtpilot,
I repeat my earlier statement...I have never found flying in French airspace the slightest bit dangerous.
You mentioned a Dan Air crash in Tenerife...absolutely nothing to do with ATC.The Captain,a Brit,was heard muttering on the CVR,presumably about the controller : "he's taking me towards the high ground"...actually,nothing but his own misconceived idea of navigation took him into the mountain.
In fact,there hasnt been one crash where this problem(as you see it) has been cited as probable cause.Including the CDG crash.
Suggest you chill out and check the facts.

[strafer]

In fact,there hasnt been one crash where this problem(as you see it) has been cited as probable cause.Including the CDG crash.
Except that it was, in a television interview, by the other pilot in the aircraft at the time.

[Jerricho]

Rananim, if I may, does this mean you are an advocate of a bi-lingual ATC frequency?

[yachtpilot]

I don't have the actual transcript of the Dan Air accident.. my understanding is from the references to the crash that the controller ( who was under a number of different pressures...professionally and domestically )..issued an instruction for the a/c to take up the hold on arrival over a particular beacon...unfortunately the wording was so poorly phrased the crew understood it to mean a turn to the left and take up a heading ....

Look at it it logically... even if there had not been a single accident resulting from non use or poor use of the designated language ... and it's very clear that there have been...should we wait until we have some body parts to bury before dealing with the problem ?..I, along with my technician and the passengers and crew of a Fokker 100 escaped death by seconds for no better reason than a cloud was no bigger than it was....is that an acceptable risk ?

Rananin... has no problem flying across France ( Why oh why do we keep hearing about France..)... Personally I always feel uncomfortable when tracking toward a VOR and hearing in a foreign language a clearence to another aircraft which includes the VOR ident but I have no idea on what the clearence involves or of the ETA of the other a/c... if you don't feel uncomfortable in those circumstances then I would quetion your qualification to be at the controls of a public transport a/c.

As I mentioned before I do speak some Spanish and some French.. the problem is that when ATC is using the þlocal language with a native speaking pilot the speech is generally quite rapid and not easily understood by non native speakers.

[Latte tester]

...okay, so I've read most of the "Complaints" about broken English, but I believe that if one is "in Command" of the aircraft, then the final decision rests clearly on his/her shoulders. If you think you heard something, but are not sure, then ask for clarification...after all you are supposed to have mastered the English language.

If you can switch between English/French or Spanish/French as fast and as competent as some controllers then fine, but until you can, live with it and get on with it.

"...if in doubt..."

[MasterBates]

Fly a lot to the U.S.
One can hardly say they speak English there, poor chaps. More like American, consisting of very few phrases and oh so many abbreviations.

:8
MB.

Sauter sans à terre , vent trois trois zéro à quinze!
(automatic translation):yuk:

[av8boy]

Fly a lot to the U.S.
One can hardly say they speak English there, poor chaps. More like American, consisting of very few phrases and oh so many abbreviations.
For example?

[Jerricho]

And again....welll said Y.P.!! Rananim must be checking his fatcs.

[radar707]

Here's a link to the CVR transcript of the Streamline/Liberte accident

Streamline / Liberte CVR transcript (http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_ssw200.shtml)

After reading this it seems fairly clear that the responsibility for this accident lies solely with the controller for clearing the liberte for take off and then lining up the 330 without a conditional clearance

[Rananim]

Interesting thread...I seem to be outnumbered.I just never had a problem with French or Spanish controllers.I rate them highly.If you're not French,they address you in English,if you're French they talk French.Pilots couldnt second-guess a controllers strategy/intentions if they tried.Somebody foolishly claimed the Shorts guy wouldnt have lined up if the other instruction had been in English.Maybe.Maybe not.That crash was controller-error.Language may or may not have been a contributing factor.It would be impossible to say.
Whats certain is that no crash has ever had this problem cited as probable cause.We've had crashes where all parties have been talking English,famously the Saudi/Kazak mid-air or the Tenerife disaster.In no way was the Dan Air 727 crash in TFN caused by anything other than loss of situational awareness by the crew.They werent on a heading(non-radar environment),they were too fast and they entered the holding pattern the wrong way.It can happen to anyone I know,but pls dont blame the poor controller just because he's Spanish.
I can think of one exception to this and thats a holding pattern ina non-radar environemnt...so we're talking Africa,probably former French colony,where there'll be a good mix of English/French traffic.If the stack is busy,each aircraft must report reaching their new level before the next guy is cleared down.For obvious reasons,this must be done in English.
I know the comment about US controllers was tongue-in-cheek but their professionalism is beyond reproach.Simply the best in the world.The movement rates they facilitate are truly amazing.

[Jerricho]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record......why are there 2 languages being used???

[Cathar]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record......why are there 2 languages being used???

Because the French are conducting operations in accordance with the requirements paragraph 5.2.1.2 of Annex 10 to the Chicago Convention and communicating in english to those aircraft that request it:

5.2.1.2 Language to be used
5.2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications
shall be conducted in the language normally used by the
station on the ground or in the English language.
5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on
request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services.
5.2.1.2.3 The languages available at a given station on the
ground shall form part of the Aeronautical Information
Publications and other published aeronautical information
concerning such facilities.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Happened to me while an effo Ran,

TCAS save. Procedural inbound at well known Greek airfield. Only other traffic being controlled in local language - zero SA until TCAS showed same level traffic outbound in the procedure straight towards us.

Not quite Africa but it felt it for a while:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Jerricho]

Yes, thank you Cathar......

Back to where we were in the argument (before the Annex squad arrived again!) ie the saftey implications and effects on situational awareness of a bi-lingual ATC frequency, especially when some of the drivers there don't speak the other language.

We've danced around the saftey side of things. What operational advantages exist from this? Or is it just national pride?

[Cathar]

Jerricho

Je suis désolé.

I had just glanced at first couple of pages of the thread and then at your post which was the last one (I usually avoid these language threads as they usually make me cross so I avoid them) and now realise that in doing so I had lost the thread. While I realise there are some serious safety issues being discussed, there was a lot of what I perceived (perhaps mistakenly) to be typical english zenophobia not to mention a lot of misconception about the international requirements regarding english as the aviation language in some of what I had read.

Back to my english lessons in disgrace.

[Jerricho]

No probs Cathar! :ok:

[brockenspectre]

The reality is that airspace and flying in it requires its own language. I won't call it English (as in the language of the UK) but I will call it "aviation speak" which is closely based on English. How many non-aviation folk would have a clue what was being said if they were to receive an ATC instruction or hear a pilot read-back? Pilots and ATC need to be sure that the information being given and received (from all sources) is understandable ... there are many words in many languages that have come from somewhere else .. who cares! It is vital in the ever-increasingly crowded airspace of 2003 that "aviation-speak" is standardised... no-one at any time performing a pilot-in-command (or flight crew) or ATC function should have an information gap in such circumstances.

I have heard French pilots speaking immaculate "aviation" ... I have heard American ATC speaking incoherently fast "aviation" ... bottom line is to avoid doubt and be sure of instructions and have the greatest situational awareness there has to be "aviation-speak".

Correct English is rare, even in the UK, these days where there appears to be an entire generation of grunters and monosyllabic speakers. Aviation needs to rise above any sense of xenophobia or nationalism and recognise that the skies are the only "one world". Of course if we were to consider that Chinese is the most widely spoken language (in population terms) then maybe everyone involved with aviation should learn Chinese?? on second thoughts ... NO!

I wish a lot of pilots and ATC would tape-record themselves and realise how unintelligible they are! the world over!!

Key has to be clarity, accuracy and sky-wide comprehension! For now, and for the foreseeable future the language formerly known as English (from now on to be termed "aviation-speak") seems to be the most sensible one to use!

:ok:

[Guatico]

Hi all,

Just curious, how would you rate spanish controller's english in the main?

Where have you heard best and worst english regarding your own professional experience in Spain?

Any funny/interesting/dangerous anecdotes?

Cheers,
Miguel A.

[yachtpilot]

Hola Miguel...
You might like to take a look at a posting of mine on 10th Oct...

[Guatico]

Hi Yachtpilot,

Is it "Spanish Land grab" the posting you're referring me to?

If so, I'm sorry, but just can't figure out the connection to mine :confused:

Regards.

[yachtpilot]

Sorry about the delayed response Guatico... away for a few days...
no... the posting I was refering to was on this thread on the 10th Oct...relating to an incident while operating in Spain...

[Guatico]

Yachtpilot never mind the delay ;)

Ok, I got it and have just read it.

I must say I agree to some extent. One only language on frequency surely boosts situational awareness and therefore safety.

The problem is not the compulsory use of English for all professional pilots irrespective of his mother tongue or nationality, as most of them are able to manage themselves in english (I believe).

The problem is what to do with non professional pilots flying small planes who lack the skill to comunicate in english? Is it possible to compel someone with the nationality of the state he's flying in to use a foreign language? I'm afraid it isn't or ,at least, very difficult to.

So... :confused:

[yachtpilot]

Guatico...

No I appreciate this, private pilots cannot all be expected to master English in the relatively short time that it takes to aquire a PPL.... I have no phobias about language.. only safety ! In the situation you describe the controller should take care to ensure that the foreign pilot using English is kept aware of the other traffics' movements to ensure situational awareness...
It ads to the radio traffic which is an extra burden but this is preferable to the horrendous consequences of a collision.

[priscilla]

just think about small french small airfield where "self information" is in french and english......lots of french private pilots don't understand english...and forign pilots don't understand french....how can it work??? :confused: I really don't know.
In some of thes airfield it is compulsory to speak french on frequency (writen on the charts)...but that's not a solution!

[yachtpilot]

Yes Priscilla but this web-site is concerned primrily with professional pilots and commercial aviation.....There is a PPL column elsewhere on the web-site...

[Guatico]

Well Yachtpilot, taking advantage of your reply to Priscilla I would add:

Despite this website's issues are primarily aimed at commercial aviation discussion, I guess you will agree with me that controllers issues aren't (or shouldn't) since all pilots (either prof. or PPL) become their equal clients once they're on frequency ;)

Controllers at major airports/ATC facilities or even at minor ones but open to commercial flights usually have to deal with commercial and non commercial traffic every single day so it is still a problem to have non english speaking "PPLs" on frequency.

I'd refer you to the case of XRY/LEJR for example. An airport with regular international/national flights, local aeroclub private pilots, and furthermore, trainees from BAE System flight school, where english communications aren't rare at all, thus improving commercial and BAE pilots' situational awareness. Not being so for most of locals.

So, the more "PPLs" speaking english, the better. Quite a hard work ahead to achieve that, though.

Regards.

PS: Priscilla, a lower ratio of non-controlled airstrips comparing Spain to France also offers certain advantages :D

[Maverfic]

Was told by a friend from Toronto that controllers in Montreal were strongly in favour of having split frequencies, i.e English Twr/App. and French Twr/App. What would THAT do for S.A? :uhoh:

[Guatico]

Hi Maverfic,

I think that would do nothing unless the controller ensures every single direction, clearance etc. given to any pilot (on one or the other freq) is heard on both frequencies on its respective language. That added to continuous frequency switching would greatly increase workload and likelyhood of mistake.

If what stated above is not carried out, how can a pilot on freq. #1 be aware of the instructions issued on freq. #2 to another?

[Jerricho]

Was told by a friend from Toronto that controllers in Montreal were strongly in favour of having split frequencies

Tell me you're effin kidding! This has got to be a wind up.

[126,7]

It would seem from that statement that the folks in Montreal would prefer to go 10 steps backwards to taking a step forward or even just marking time............

[the wizard of auz]

Robmac,Salam, Apa kamah?. I have had the same experiances with the Indonesians.it doesn't seem to matter what you or them have to say.
just have to love the "KOMOROW TOWER, VICTOR HOTEL ECHO UNIFORM KILO, 50 MILES SOUTH EAST MAINTAINING 8500.
VICTOR HOTEL ECHO UNIFORM KILO, CLEARED TO LAND RUNWAY ONE EIGHT, NEXT CALL BASE.

KOMOROW TOWER, VICTOR HOTEL ECHO UNIFIRM KILO, MA'AF, SAYA BELAM LANCAR DELAM BAHASA INDONESIA. APAKAH ANDA BERBAHASA INGGRIS?.

AAAH, VICTOR HOTEL ECHO UNIFORM KILO, KAMU BAHASA INDONESIA!. BAIK BAIK. SAYA BAHASA INGGRIS TIDAK BAIK. TIDAK APA APA.
you just know its going to be a good place to fly then :hmm:

strangly enough,whilst off galloping around the Philippines, I had absolutely no problems with Mactan (west) control, cebu director, cebu tower,(cebu ground was a slight drama) Manila director and Manila tower and ground.
All ICAO English and very easy to work with. :ok:

[alexban]

spodman :' For the same reasons should jet drivers only speak German?'

ever heard of henry coanda? he was not a german ,for sure.
The Me was not the first jet plane,as you may think.
cheers :ok:

[chiglet]

Alex,
The "coanda" was a "Ducted Fan", not a "true" jet.
There was also a Frenchman [name escapes me] who invented a "jet", using the "vacuum" principle in about 1910[ish]
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[topgundom]

Je pense que tous les anglais ne savent rien de la langue, la liberte, la vie ou les femmes.
Vive la France.:E :p

[yachtpilot]

SAY AGAIN TOP CONDOM ... AM I CLEAR TO LINE UP ?

[126,7]

Negative Yachtpilot, he said cleared take-off with an early right turn, max rate of climb until passing 5000ft.

[Jerricho]

Yes, that's very good topgundom.

How do you say "unsafe" in French?

[Maverfic]

Sorry for the hiatus. Was just off thinking about life, freedom, women and language for a bit.

Think I missed my slot though.

After all, one does need a break now and again: I can't be on the internet TWENTY-FOUR/SEVEN can I?

With regards to Montreal, no it wasn't a wind-up (unless I was on the receiving end), but it was a few years ago.

Any Canadians online to give us a more up-to-date picture? I know some elements of the population had a campaign there to get all the English translations removed from road signs, and there was some talk of being a state independent from the rest of Canada, prompting many to hang up the Maple Leaf in their houses to show support for a united country.

Perhaps viewed in context the ATC idea didn't sound as foolhardy as we find it.

[Jerricho]

Perhaps viewed in context the ATC idea didn't sound as foolhardy as we find it.


What's French for "I think that's a really bad idea!"

[Pilocol]

Here we go.
1- Late evening in Barcelona. 7 Iberia planes trying to land and I’m the only one speaking English. After a bit of struggle, I decided to tell my F/O: You have the controls and you do as I tell you, and came back to the controller in Spanish, realizing that he wanted me to do a left 270 degree turn (For separation) to join ILS behind a landing MD.
2- Remember the Avianca accident in Manhattan??? The pilots where not able to communicate to the tower that they where low on fuel. From then on no Colombian pilot gets in to Avianca without a very good English knowledge.
3- Wouldn’t be able to fly in to Australia if it wasn’t for an Australian Co-captain.
Summarize: It’s always good to know more than one language, in my case is more than three, but it is a dream to have all the aviation community speaking several languages just because they go all over the word.
It’s definitely better to have all the controllers do so …. And I have to agree with most of you. It’s a safety matter.
Don’t know how many of you have had the chance to fly in the Middle East, but they have a very good English and they even use it between themselves.
It’s normal for other countries to use there native language in certain circumstances, but it should be mandatory in close proximity to airports, on climb-descend, turn, intercept approaches and take off-line up clearances…

Best of all, it’s in our hands to keep it safe… when in doubt …..(SAY AGAIN)

:)

[HAMMY]

pilots with the worst command of English flying onto LHR?
Air France
Topic closed

[ehwatezedoing]

Maverfic, regarding Québec I suspect that your news date from early 80´s....
No offence BTW :p

& never heard about "the split frequency" suggestion.

[Maverfic]

Must,ve been talking out of my arse then:p

[Guatico]

Pilocol,

In regard to what you say about Barcelona... At least it was Spanish and not Català :p Just joking!! :ok:

[Squawk7777]

As I understand it, it is an ICAO agreement/requirement that the aviation language was to be English. Or is it the case the French and French speakers have made exemptions, to suit themselves.

Wrong! Again, this is a typical French-bashing argument! What language do you expect "south of the river"?

I had a previous argument about dual languages on ATC and ICAO. I don't have the exact reference with me now (out of town), but ICAO states that if you cannot use the language (other than English) that is being used by ATC than English should be used. I am pretty sure that in Brazil Portuguese is used for ATC communications. I know a part of Brazil where a local Indian language is used for ATC. Long story short: English is not the only international language that can be used for ATC.

I have done some personal research on that matter and the only major accident that comes to my attention is the one @ CDG. As far as I have researched I don't think that the use of French was the only reason for this accident.

If a pilot/flight crew is concerned about a foreign language that is being used on the radio, he should increase his situational awareness, especially on the ground!

Mid-air collisions, take-off/landing accidents etc. have happened in "English-only spoken airspace" as well. I think that dual languages are not a safety hazard. On the reverse, a flight crew can become too complacent if ATC is only conducted in English.

7 7 7 7

[Jerricho]

I think that dual languages are not a safety hazard. On the reverse, a flight crew can become too complacent if ATC is only conducted in English.

This is a new one. Complacency. Are you suggesting that a bi-lingual frequency "keeps everybody on their toes"? Procedures and standardisations are implemented to ensure saftey is at it utmost. In a BUSY terminal or ground environment, with more than one language being used, how can any pilot honestly say situational awareness can be kept?

You mention the ONLY incident that comes to you attention was that unfortunate one at CDG. This is gonna sound a little sensationalist, but will it take more deaths to seriously address this issue?

[Squawk7777]

Jericho,

you make it sound that the main reason for the accident at CDG was the use of dual languages. It was a contributing factor which I am not disputing.

I have flown many hours in Latin America and I don't speak Spanish. Do I consider it unsafe? No! Am I more concentrated on my situational awareness? You bet! If you fly regularly in a dual language airspace, don't be too stubborn and prep yourself. You won't believe how much it helps just to learn numbers (0-36). Two languages and one head - that seems difficult, I suppose?

Yes, I am suggesting complacency. Again, that comes from my personal experience. Just the mental picture "my language = much safer" can create it. Like it or not, that's what I have seen.

7 7 7 7

[RUDAS]

No matter what you say about the french-at least they're more cultured! who cares if you cant understand them!They're probably saying bad things about us anyway!

[Jerricho]

We're flogging over old ground here. The main error was an ATC one, no doubting that. However waving the situational awareness flag as you were, IF the Shorts pilot had heard the MD80 lined up on the same runway, PERHAPS it could have been averted (been thrashed to death already)

If we wish to recount "personal experiences", I had the opportunity to plug in and watch Montreal Terminal earlier in the year. Talk about confusing. Let's picture a somewhat new BA pilot entering that airspace for the first time. Must be daunting. As I have said several time, in a BUSY terminal environment, what's the effin need or point aside from the "because we can".

[Squawk7777]

As far as I have read the accident report the crew of the shorts were uncertain if the runway was clear or occupied. Why did they not verify that they were cleared for take-off? My criticism about the controller is that he did not name the runway in his landing clearance for Air Inter.

Another thought that crossed my mind is military traffic. I fly regularly through military operating airspace and I cannot hear the military a/c since they use UHF. As far as I remember some countries in Europe require a separate controller for UHF comm. You share the same airspace, and cannot hear military traffic! Is that safer?

How many accidents can you directly attribute to dual languages being used by ATC? Factor in the number of operations and the frequency is probably very low and therefore remains a very low risk.

If you take a look at the whole picture it probably is the safest way it is now. I am getting scared imagining whole Latin America trying to conduct ATC comm in English to each other ... :uhoh:

7 7 7 7

[Jerricho]

a very low risk

So you acknowledge there is a risk. Thank you for supporting my argument. WHY is there the need for it? I thought standards were there to reduce risks.

[Squawk7777]

Aviation is about calculated risks, congested frequencies etc. Some of it is acceptable e.g. read the UK Mandatory Occorance Report and it says sometimes like "this incident is acceptable provided the frequency remains low".

For how many years has dual-language ATC existed and how many accidents can you attribute to?

Nah, I don't think I support your argument :rolleyes:

[Jerricho]

For how many years has dual-language ATC existed and how many accidents can you attribute to?

And what is the percentage increase in air traffic movements in busy Terminal Environments? More jets in the sky evey day. Once backwater regional airports getting more and more commercial traffic, thanks to the advent of LCCs. So the number of acceptable incidents " provided the frequency remains low" suddenly may have a few more players joining the game (a little sensationalist I know).

Anyway, in 10-15 years it'll all be automated. All the little computers talking to each other. You reckon Air France's computers will communicate in French? And then go on strike? (sorry, cheap shot)

[Squawk7777]

Jerricho,

good thought, but I disagree on the "percentage increase in air traffic movements in busy Terminal Environments".

I have flown into a few very busy airports in the US (ORD, ATL, JFK, EWR, BOS). When the ATC controller is so busy that his communication sounds like a non-stop AK-47, can you really picture all of his transmissions? I agree that it sounds strange to a person the first time he's exposed to dual-language ATC and that he feels unsafe. If you approach a very busy airport, bad weather, approach procedures etc. do you have enough time to catch all other communications? I think not. Will dual-language ATC make it more confusing? I think not.

[yachtpilot]

7777... you do speak some tosh..
How can anyone possibly support an argument that states it's not a problem if we don't know what each other are doing...

Your personal research indicates that the accident at CDG is the'Only' one resulting from use of a foreign language...For the poor co-pilot on the 330 it's the only one he needed ! And your research is badly flawed...several accidents have been attributed in part..notice I said ' In part ' to this cause....Dan_Air 727 hitting a mountain at Tenerife....BEA and Air Yugoslavia collision over Zagreb 1976...and if you care to look at a posting I made on this thread on Oct 10th you'll find an ' almost '....

If ATC, ourselves or other crew make no mistakes then we probably would have even fewer accidents, whatever the language... unfortunately people do make mistakes...At least let's all have a chance to hear thjem being made..

[HAMMY]

"I have flown into a few very busy airports in the US (ORD, ATL, JFK, EWR, BOS). When the ATC controller is so busy that his communication sounds like a non-stop AK-47, can you really picture all of his transmissions? "



And do you really believe that ATC using a dual langauge in these environments is safe.What happens when something goes wrong.Will he/she remember which langauge they are supposed to be using to the a/c with a problem or the two they are trying to give avoiding action to.Under an extreme pressure situation I very much doubt it.
Dual langauge may be "safe" in a very quiet ATC sector but in a busy sector in my humble opinion its just an accident waiting to happen.

[Jerricho]

7777, it's more than a good though, it's a fact. And you (and a couple of others here) have been pretty good at waving the "dual-language freqs are safe.....blah, blah, blah!" flag. There have been some good arguments/points from both pilots and controllers as to why they don't think its a good idea

Answer me this. WHY? Why do it? What operational benefit is there? Let's here some arguments. We've done our side, you do yours. If it simply is "because we can", or "Cause ICAO says we can" that's pretty lame.

And I have been thinking about your "complacency". What a load of cr@p. In fact, complacency would be more of an issue with 2 languages being used. Pilot thinks "Oh, ATC are wittering on again in French, that's not for me". Meanwhile, said "wittering" is avoiding action being given to opposite direction traffic to the guy. If you hear "Avoiding Action" or "Turn now" in the one standardised language, everybody is going to pay attention.

(Edited cause we all know I can't spell)

[Rananim]

Jerricho and others,
You make some good points but your "dual ATC frequencies are unsafe ...blah blah blah" bandwagon is flawed in its logic.No accident has been directly attributable to this practice.It is possible that in the CDG crash,it was a contributing factor,but this could never be proven.The other crashes you cite are also red herrings.The Dan Air Tenerife was pilot error,the mid-air over Zagreb was controller error.
Why does it continue?Mainly because analysis of past accidents tells us that it is not unsafe to do so.Pilots can not be expected to derive situational awareness by monitoring how controllers are managing traffic flow.Second-guessing a controllers intentions is well nigh impossible in an "English-only" environment.TCAS is always there as a final option in any case.
Some controllers/pilots(I'm thinking Latin America and Africa) can not speak English very well.Conveying something in a short a time as possible can best be done in their native language.Suggest you follow 7777's advice and learn a few relevant phrases(1-36,left,right,cleared line up/land/takeoff)in French and Spanish..that 's if you think you know better than the controller....

[Maverfic]

Not sure about Dan Air being Pilot error, or at least the version of events I was shown. Again it's the classic error chain leading to the scene of the accident.

Anyone who's ever been on a flight deck when the controller utters a complete string of incomprehensibility preceeded by your callsign knows the sinking feeling you get when you look across at the other bloke and know he didn't understand a word of it either.

With all the approach paraphenalia to be done at the same time it's not something you could call helpful.

Controllers (even some on this thread) get the same thing from foreign pilots, and I'm sure that some of the controllers I talk to around and about are cursing me for not being able to talk French/Spanish/Italian/Turkish/German/Urdu.

The greatest respect to all multilinguists but I apologise for not having the time to learn the language everywhere i go. And that includes Birmingham.

My final point; Mathematically it's simpler to all learn 0ne language and stick to it rather than everyone learn everyone else's language.

[yachtpilot]

OK Rananim and others... let's get back to the basics... the original Q on the thread was to do with Controllers Using Broken English.. The problem being that it's difficult for all concerned to be aware of what is being asked or required... the same problem occurs if more than one language is being used... The problem then is to do with communication...
To say that language problems have only been contributory is farcical...50 years ago it was not uncommon for a major accident to occur because someone made one silly mistake... those days are gone because we've learned better to protect ourselves and our passengers with SOP's and back-up equipment, almost all aviation accidents today have multiple contributory factors...that is why it's so difficult to abolish them completely...that doesn't meen we simply don't try !
The Dan-Air accident ( as I mentioned earlier in this thread ) was largely as a result of the controllers very poor English... an instruction was mis-understood..the crew drove into a mountain.... The Zagreb collision might have been avoided had the instruction to climb been given on the frequency in English...In both these accidents the controllers were under unfair pressure... but that's when we all make mistakes...poor communication whether from equipment problems, language problems or whatever has probably been a factor in many accidents down the years....the reason we do not call ' Ready for Take-Off' is a direct result of the worst accident in the history of aviation... the words 'take-off' are now only to be used first by the controller and then confirmed by the aircraft... if details such as this are considered vitaly important how can you realistically argue that it's safe to use more than one language.... the fact that it hasn't happened to YOU ( yet ) ... doesn't meen that it's safe....Again, as I pointed out before... I, my crew plus the crew and pasengers of a Fokker 100 and who knows how many people on the ground beneath us escaped death because a cloud was no bigger than it was... that to me is not an acceptable risk...

[Squawk7777]

I'd forgotten about this thread ... :}

yachtpilot thank you for your lovely remark. What is your opinion then about military traffic that cannot be heard? Despite English-only speaking airspace there are still mid-airs.

Jerricho to end this argument and answer your question of WHY, here's my point of view: Speaking a language does not mean understanding it completely. There are a lot of pilots who have trouble with more than one language (including native English speakers). For countries where English is not the native language, using their native language is safer than using the "foreign language". I don't mean to offend people that live in Central and South America, but I feel safer in this dual language airspace than the thought that everyone had to speak English and probably only understand half of it. :\

And again, yes it is a calculated risk. As a matter of fact the whole aviation industry is a calculated risk. Live with it and be aware.

About what you call "load of cr@p": There's something called the "cocktail party effect" (from the CAA human factors exam). From my experience, there's a higher focus/listening watch on ATC in dual language airspace, than in English-only speaking airspace. In English-only spoken airspace, one listens to a lot of communications but only react when one's callsign is being addressed. I also have flown with one captain to Canada who would complain about the dual language issue and as soon as we crossed the border, he would miss some calls because he didn't pay any attention.

Finally, what about SELCAL? I have never used it, but what I remember from my ground school, you have a visual indication if ATC wants to contact you. So then, you don't listen to ATC all the time, do you?

This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.

7 7 7 7

[Jerricho]

Quote:
This problem might be solved in a short time when ATC transmissions are being shown on your MFD instead of VHF/HF comms. Then again, that might pose more problems because no one else besides ATC and the aircraft that is being addressed knows about the ATC instructions.

*Sigh* Which just supports the argument that has been put forward here of a lack of situational awareness when everybody isn't hearing what's going on. You're entitled to your opinion, but it seems there are many voices here, both drivers and ATC who hold a different point of view!!

(BTW, I was under the impression SELCAL was predominantly used in HF environments, where normal VHF communications aren't possible. And chances are these are in procedural ATC environments not busy terminal areas...............can't really see the link)

[Toulouse]

Well said Pricilla!

Just imagine if Spanish (which is catching up on English in no. of speakers) were made the only ATC language and all british pilots had to learn spanish! hahaha! I can just imagine:
hola, yo requesto permissino to descendo to flight levelo...

i think its logic that french pilots can speak french while flying in french speaking airspace, or russian, or spanish or italian...

[Mikey21]

Just want to say, that if the aviation language wasn't english, there wouldn't be any pilots in England.

May be 2,or 3% because you guys are good at pointing out fingers, but when it comes to second language, vous devenez minuscule???

You must be a the back of the pack. So don't try to blame the french, look at yourself first.

Just use your TCAS, it screams at you in English doesn't it!
What is the difference anyway, when you are in IMC, whether you know where the traffic is or not? what are you gonna do?
By the time you see it , it must be too late.

[Jerricho]

Geezuz............

You are here, the point is way the hell over there. This isn't a zenophobic attack on any one particular language. The points being made over the past year (and why the hell this has been dragged kicking and screaming back to the fray God only knows) is that of a SINGLE aviation language!!! At this point in time, English is the common demoninator of languages if you will world wide. Doesn't this make it a prime candidate for this (which has been thrashed out now for many months here!)

Go and read the WHOLE thread, please.

[av8boy]

Well said, J. Although I wouldn't mind fleshing-out the issue a little more, now that it's back toward the top of the stack. I was learning something when it went away...

[yachtpilot]

I'M WITH YOU JERRICO...I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT THIS 'SCYLLA' OF A SUBJECT HAS RISEN AGAIN....

A SINGLE LANGUAGE IS ONLY COMMON SENSE AS WE ALL NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON...ESPECIALLY WHEN SOME POOR BASTARD IS SCREWING UP AND HASN'T YET REALISED IT...ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE WORLD-WIDE IT IS FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN FIRST OR SECOND LANGUAGE, IF THE SINGLE LANGUAGE WAS BEING RECONSIDERED WHICH WOULD BE POINTLESS THEN PROBABLY SPANISH WOULD HAVE TO COME NEXT AND AFTER THAT PROBABLY RUSSIAN...BEYOND THAT THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO START LOOKING AT MAYBE GERMAN OR FRENCH BUT THE SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IS THAT IT IS A 'WORLD-WIDE' ISSUE... NOT JUST IN EUROPE...OR THE WEST... OR THE EAST BUT WORLD-WIDE...AND THAT IS WHY ENGLISH WAS CHOSEN AND WILL REMAIN FAR AND AWAY THE MOST SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD INTERNATIONAL LANGUAGE....NOTE THE INTERNATIONAL SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE A THREAD DOMINATED BY PROTESTING CHINESE SPEAKERS...

[av8boy]

Check caps-lock. Your'e yelling. :uhoh:

[Jerricho]

I think he meant to! ;)

[av8boy]

I guess I hadn't considered that. And look at me putting the apostrophe in the wrong place in "you're." I'm pathetic. I think I'll go be abused in the "affect/effect" thread... :(

Dave

[Jerricho]

No Dave..............not pathetic! Don't be so hard!


I'm still at a loss why this was added to and brought back to the top of the pile!

[FougaMagister]

Reading this never-ending thread, two points spring to my mind:

1/ The original thread title (I know, it was 9 pages ago) was "Controllers with broken English". Ignoring for a second the situation awareness issue, how it came to be the usual moan on ze French having ze nerve to speak French to French ATC in French airspace is beyond me, bearing in mind French ATC 's level of English is actually quite good.

2/ It seem the "moaners" are all from Blighty (or at least native English-speakers). Flight crew from South America, Africa,Central Europe or Asia do not seem to mind the double-language ATC issue (if they do, they haven't contributed to the thread)...

Cheers :cool:

[Lemurian]

Jerricho:
English is the common demoninator of languages if you will world wide
By the definition of "common denominator",this would be Esperanto!
After having,long ago and under a different pseudo worked for ,fought for-and got censored by Danny in the process- using english phraseology at CDG,I have come to the conclusion that the French will use English R/T procedures at exactly the same time the Brits will give the £ up across the Manche and join the €.

[B737NG]

Most spoken language is CHINESE then SPANISH next ENGLISH followed by RUSSIAN and FRENCH at the end.
This are the five ICAO languages. Fly in chinese airspace and then go ahead and make a request..... goooood luck if you understand what the people on the ground are talking to you. I flew recently to HKG and I we had a very "british" voice , indeed a high professional, at the other end and I enjoyed the quality of service and handling but the F/O had his problems with it as he uses fractured english in his communication. As we arrived in the korean airspace he felt comfortable but not me anymore..... he wonders why? but not me. I have a real phobia to have a medical emergency in the Air and want to tell those people what is really going on and get the best available assistance for the PAX but I have my concerns that we can explain what is going on. So if You complain about the french then think about twice, they are still gold when I compare some in far east with them. And, I remember a explainaition from a LAX controller, there is NO english! People speak Texas, Atlanta, Australia, and and and ..

NG

[Jerricho]

We have standard phraseology.......why not standard language?

[HAMMY]

cos non standard speakers would get the hump!

[salzkorn]

well... I read a great part of this thread, and then I got sick... tired... weary...

It sometimes comes to my mind that the crux of the matter is not so much "let English be the one and unique langage in aviation for safer skies"... than "let us kill those stinky French frog eaters !"...
and it seems to be recurrent on pprune... it's a shame... :(

When it comes to bilingual airspace, it always comes back to French-English airspace, and then ends up in "French controllers' deplorable level of English..."... strange that you rarely write about the French Canadian airspace... where both language are also used...

I agree that one language is better, I'm in favour of that, although I'm an ATCO at CDG (please, don't puke on my shoes thanks... :rolleyes: ), especially on tower and ground frequencies.
But then I regret that continuing French bashing and narrow mindedness....

Let me remind you that when I read that "the English invented av iation"... I kind of laugh because the Wrights were American... and Clément Ader invented the first aeroplane, which he named "avion"

[Mother Canucker]

Kind of like Stockport supporters.........hey Hammy!

[anjouan]

Actuellement B737 NG it goes:

1. Chinese (Mandarin) 1,075,000,000
2. English 514,000,000
3. Hindustani 496,000,000
4. Spanish 425,000,000
5. Russian 275,000,000
6. Arabic 256,000,000
7. Bengali 215,000,000
8. Portuguese 194,000,000
9. Malay-Indonesian 176,000,000
10. French 129,000,000
(source Ethnologue, 13th Edition)

World's Most Widely Spoken Languages (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0775272.html.)

or another source quotes:
1. Chinese* (937,132,000)
2. Spanish (332,000,000)
3. English (322,000,000)
4. Bengali (189,000,000)
5. Hindi/Urdu (182,000,000)
6. Arabic* (174,950,000)
7.Portuguese (170,000,000)
8. Russian (170,000,000)
9. Japanese (125,000,000)
10.German (98,000,000)
11.French* (79,572,000)

Top Languages By Population (http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm)


or possibly:

Rank, Countries, Population,language (in millions)
1. Chinese, Mandarin Brunei, Cambodia, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mongolia, Philippines, Singapore, S. Africa, Taiwan, Thailand 885
2. Spanish Algeria, Andorra, Argentina, Belize, Benin, Bolivia, Chad, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Rep., Ecuador, El Salvador, Eq. Guinea, Guatemala, Honduras, Ivory Coast, Madagascar, Mali, Mexico, Morocco, Nicaragua, Niger, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Spain, Togo, Tunisia, United States, Uruguay, Venezuela. 332
3. English Australia, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Cameroon, Canada, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, The Gambia, Guyana, India, Ireland, Israel, Lesotho, Liberia, Malaysia, Micronesia, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Somalia, S. Africa, Suriname, Swaziland, Tonga, U.K., U.S., Vanuatu, Zimbabwe, many Caribbean states 322
4. Arabic Egypt, Sudan, ALgeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, UAE, Oman, Iraq, Lebanon 235
5. Bengali Bangladesh, India, Singapore 189
6. Hindi India, Nepal, Singapore, S. Africa, Uganda 182
7. Portuguese Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, France, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, São Tomé and Pr'ncipe 170
8. Russian China, Israel, Mongolia, Russia, U.S. 170
9. Japanese Japan, Singapore, Taiwan 125
10. German, Standard Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Czech Rep., Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Kazakhstan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Paraguay, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Switzerland 98
11. Chinese, Wu China 77.2
12. Javanese Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore 75.5
13. Korean China, Japan, N. Korea, S. Korea, Singapore, Thailand 75
14. French Algeria, Andorra, Belgium, Benin, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cameroon, Canada, Chad, Comoros, Congo, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti, France, Gabon, Guinea, Haiti, Ivory Coast, Laos, Luxembourg, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Monaco, Morocco, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, Seychelles, Switzerland, Togo, Tunisia, Vanuatu, Vietnam 72


The 50 Most Widely Spoken Languages in the World (http://www.photius.com/rankings/languages2.html)

There's obviously some differences, but I can't find anywhere that French ranks above the 10th most widely spoken language.

[Jerricho]

Right............so how do I say "Cleared visual approach" in Chinese?

[Lemurian]

"Let there be many fragrant flowers on your return to earth"

[mutt]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the French..... but we calculated that a B777 crew flew through countries with 62 different languages in the course of a year.

We are therefore left with two options.....

1: Each B777 crewmember is trained in 62 languages prior to release to the line.
2: As an airline, we fight that all aviation communication be conducted in a common language...... English..............

Just to remove those xenophobic ideas, the national language of this airline is ARABIC.



Mutt.