European ATC more expensive than U.S. Why?

[flowman]

Strange meetings take place in this building. Accidentally found out about one today.
There are "boffins" here (directors from all member states) trying to answer the question "why is European ATC 30% more expensive than in the U.S.A.?"
Apparently they have been working on this question for 18 months or so!
So now is your chance to answer this difficult question for them and to save them the bother of visiting Brussels once a month for the next 2 years.
Make sure you contribute, or you know the answer they will come up with ....
I'm sure they'll appreciate your help! ;)

Here's a starter: There are 31 headquarters in Europe, but only one in the States. Too many managers?

[Bright-Ling]

I would guess that additional countries/more complicated airspace is the reason.

Having said that, everything seems at least 30% more in UK than in the US!

Ever heard of the phrase "Rip Off Britain"?!?!?

[CUNIM]

I guess part of it lies in the people who consider that as engineers, they know how ATC works better than operational people - go have a look around Da Vinci and count the controllers, you won't need more than two hands. Years ago there were operational and engineering directorates. Most of the staff in the operational directorates were operational, apart from one exception for ingeneurs.:(

[flowman]

CUNIM perhaps I did not make it clear but the Directors concerned are not from Eurocontrol but from invidual nations' CAAs.
So the Blighty types have their own representative from NATS (who is an ex controller).:confused:

[niknak]

Because we spend considerably more money than the U.S on developing half assed technology over so much time that when we finally get it to work it's already years out of date and only partially functional?

[radar707]

You get what you pay for :) :) :)

[Findo]

Flowman - define expensive ?

Does it mean -

1. Costs more to run ?
2. Charges are higher to the airlines ?

My guestimate is no to 1 and yes to 2.

[flowman]

Findo

From what I understood from the conversation I had, your guestimate is correct. Charges are higher.

[Coast]

"Because we spend considerably more money than the U.S on developing half assed technology over so much time that when we finally get it to work it's already years out of date and only partially functional?"

Hey niknak, you sure you're in the UK not Canada!!


:D

[Scott Voigt]

Can't be that you spend more money on equipment... We spent over 2 BILLION dollars on the Advanced Automation System and it went belly up. But unlike some other countries, when we saw the direction is was going we pulled the plug and went with a display system replacement and started working on other things. We are spending a LOT of money right now on an automation replacement for the TRACON's called STARS. That is another wonderful bit of equipment that is having its problems. The good news though is that we have a system that we are using in it's stead for places that the equipment was getting too old to keep going. But it's made by another contractor <G>...

Scott

[zed3]

I would think that so called 'social costs' are an important factor .....ie the various taxes and charges levied by governments on employers in Europe.

[Iron City]

Niknak. Gee, I thought you guys were smarter by letting us develop the half a%% stuff and then see if it works and buy a copy or two.

I think you charge more because you can and you are a profit center, not a cost center like in US.

[Findo]

Scott,

I think you'll find the difference is that NATS and all other commercially run ATC service providers recoup all of their costs from airline charges and the USA does not.

[FWA NATCA]

FINDO,

>> I think you'll find the difference is that NATS and all other commercially run ATC service providers recoup all of their costs from airline charges and the USA does not.


Could this be why the the commerically run ATC services are Bankrupt?

Mike
US Air Traffic Control System is "NOT FOR SALE"

[Scott Voigt]

Findo;

A majority of our funds come from the aviation trust fund which also provides money for airports and airport infrastructure. That comes from passenger taxes as well as frieght fees and aviation fuel taxes... A small portion of the FAA's budget ( More than just ATC. ) comes from the general fund.

regards

Scott

[Check 6]

During the past year we now receive with our Eurocontrol invoices additional charges from individual countries for ATC services.

Can someone explain these additional charges?

Thank you.

:rolleyes:

[ATC Watcher]

Check 6 could that be the so called " terminal charges " ?

Back to the original post , I guess the main reason why those directors of national CAAs are meeting is to ensure how they ae going to keep their power and their jobs in the future map of Europe. Their Ministers have voted for the single sky initiave but many see that as a threat rather than an avancement.

In the Eurocontrol PRC 2 report there is an attempt to explain the cost differential between US and Europe, one is that controllers work more hours / year in the US, and the other that they work more airplanes .

The cost of management is equally bad apparently in both parts of the Atlantic.

Having controllers work more hours in Europe will be difficult as the unions are not yet ready to tell their members to work 50h weeks ( incl overtime ) 6 days out of 7 and 2 to 4 weeks leave per year.
Working more aeropanes per controller depends more on the sectorisation and procedures, and on automation tools available.
There there is room to manoeuvre, Do not need Directors of CAA meeting to discover this :\

[Iron City]

If the CAA Directors don't know that sectorization, procedures, and automation drive productivity of ATC/ATM when in fact they do then either the Directors weren't paying attention or their staff wasn't telling them. Or that productivity is beside the point and the name of the game is figuring out nice soft jobs with minimum work and maximum holidays for themselves and their minions. Maybe to staff the eurocracy being built to charge people for value added services (like navigation information) on Galileo?