Flying over water

[Northern Highflyer]

What is required to do a trip over water ?

Assuming a clear day, you are still in sight of the "ground" so can it be done on a PPL or do you have to hold an IMC rating ?

I can think of three possible scenarios but what are the requirements for each one ?

1 Flying along the coastline but just out to sea, say 1 or 2 miles, with land in sight.

2 A short trip over the sea, say over The Channel, where land can be seen at all times

3 A longer trip over water, say to the Isle of Man, where sight of land is lost.

Most PPL's can track a VOR or NDB pretty accurately so losing sight of land for a few minutes wouldn't (or shouldn't) be a problem but is this allowed ?

Is there a set distance from land you are allowed to fly with various ratings ?

All views welcome. :ok:

[dublinpilot]

For a JAA PPL there are no requirements specifically for an over water flight, other than the normal weather conditions.

You must file a flight plan for an international trip (and in Ireland-not sure about uk-must file a flight plan for a trip over more than 30nm of water).

I understand an National PPL is different, and an international trip is not permitted (possibly some international mutual recognition-I'm not too familiar with it, but generally no international trips).

However various clubs will have their own requirements. Virtually all will require a "cross water checkout" before allowing you go beyond gliding distance of land. The contents of any such checkout is completely up to the school themselves.

I'm told mine will require an "instrument checkout" too, before allowing me to do a cross water checkout. Seems a bit like over kill to me....but that's another story altogether :)

dp

[Flyin'Dutch']

Nothing required other than a vanilla PPL.

However the ability to use the AI, DI and navigational aids helps a lot, especially on those hazy summer days.

A good preparation would include filling out a flightplan, getting survival gear and having some thoughts about the various scenarios.

FD

[CBLong]

Northern Highflyer : NB that the phrase you may be thinking of in reference to VFR flight is "clear of cloud and in sight of the surface", not "...in sight of the ground"... perhaps that helps to clarify the situation?

cbl
:)

[big.al]

Did a trip to Guernsey a couple of months ago. Flight plans are mandatory when crossing an FIR boundary, but 'advisable' for any flight where the track will take you more than 10nm from land.

Sensible to carry a liferaft and wear lifejackets. But otherwise, perfectly possible and allowable for a 'vanilla' PPL such as myself. Having the GPS was handy as a double-check to remain on track, although provided basic VOR tracking skills are used it's no big deal. Failing that you could always follow the Sealink.....;)

[Whirlybird]

If you're going to France, you're hardly likely to miss it even without nav aids!

I would suggest an wearing an immersion suit. You can buy second hand ones from SEMS for about £100, or hire them for very little. Survival time in UK waters without one is frightening...and have you ever tried to get into a liferaft? I tried on an exercise in a swimming pool, and some are virtually impossible to climb into without help. It would be a shame to ditch successfully and die of hypothermia before anyone could get to you. :eek:

[Penguina]

Where does one get a liferaft and how much does it cost?

[FlyingForFun]

I agree with Whirly - who needs navaids? Just point in the right direction, and you're bound to hit land somewhere! (Some kind of navaid as check that you're going to hit the right bit of land is nice, but not essential, since it's usually pretty easy to identify a piece of coastline and correct as necessary.)

More important, I would say, is some instrument training - although it's not actually required. I've flown to the Channel Islands on a very hazy day, and although technically it was VMC, I was pretty much flying on instruments the whole way (made even more fun by the fact that the AI wasn't working, so it was partial panel, but that's a different story).

I don't think I'd go any kind of distance over water without life-jackets. A life-raft is nice if you've got one available, and got the weight for it. Neither of these is actually required, though.

Pooleys contains just about everything you need to know about customs, special branch, flight plans, etc, but it is spread through several different sections so you'll need to read it pretty carefully to make sure you don't miss anything. Also worth a read is the CAA Safety Sense leaflet on VFR flight plans.

FFF
-------------

Edit to reply to Penguina - some clubs hire them out (White Waltham, for example, have one which you can hire as long as you book it before anyone else - which can be tough in the summer). Otherwise, there's a company called South Eastern Marine Service which will courier one to you anywhere in the UK for short-term loans. Don't have the details to hand, but the address and phone number is in the back of one of the CAA Safety Sense leaflets, which is on-line somewhere if only I could find it! (Thanks to capt_sparky for finding this information for me a few months ago when I needed it.)

[Circuit Basher]

Penguina - if you wish to buy one, then there are prices on the Tr*an$@1r site (but think in terms of around £7-800 a shot + maintenance, which is significant). Much better to rent one (either from your club, from someone like another aviation supply company, the name of which I can't remember :O or from a local survival equipment emporium (if you have one!) ).

I would not recommend getting one from the 'guy down the pub' 'coz sure as eggs are eggs, when you need it - you need it and then is not the time to find it's leaking, the CO2 bottle's naffed or the baler's missing. As Whirly pointed out, a raft is not the easiest thing to get in and out of - consider having a course in a swimming pool where you try getting into one without capsizing!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What is required to do a trip over water ? http://www.brettward.co.uk/family/beaver/cairns01.jpg
One of these would be a jolly good start! (Someone actually let me fly one for a few minutes this summer, almost certainly not terribly legal so I won't tell you who it was, it wasn't the operator in the picture.)

[IO540]

You pay a helluva price in fuel efficiency to cover the probability of an engine failure over water in one of these :O

Everyone flying over the Channel should carry a raft. Good 4-person ones start at about £1000-1200. Harry Mandelsson is one place to look, also I would try SEMS directly. RFD also sell their low-end ones off their website and I think you get more for your money with those than with something which has been imported and been through the whole retail distribution markup chain...

Then wear a life jacket while over water. They are nearly all made by Remploy, to very slightly different specs according to who they are for. Cost about £60.

Annual maintenance is about £120 for the raft and about £20 for a life jacket. Not legally required, I believe, but advisable.

And an EPIRB. £500 is a start for a 400MHz unit. Very advisable if flying over larger expanses of water.

There are so many ships about on the average day one could probably glide (from 5000ft) right next to something. I never worry about it.

[Timothy]

What is required to do a trip over water ? A strong religious faith or a second engine. The latter is my choice.

W

[IanSeager]

2 A short trip over the sea, say over The Channel, where land can be seen at all times

If you're talking about France then often you'll lose sight of land, even on the short crossing

Ian

[DamienB]

Requirements - balls of steel - HP, where are you...

[QDMQDMQDM]

I would suggest an wearing an immersion suit. You can buy second hand ones from SEMS for about £100, or hire them for very little. Survival time in UK waters without one is frightening...and have you ever tried to get into a liferaft?

I agree, Whirly. I thought long and hard about overwater survival gear for the Super Cub. A raft is heavy, bulky and costly and it may well not get out of the aircraft, especially in the Super Cub. Even if it does, getting into it is a big deal, unless you have a very fancy, very expensive, but surprisingly not that heavy Winslow raft, which are not widely available in the UK.

My solution is:

-Immersion suit from SEMS
-Long Johns
-Switlik Helicopter Crew vest lifejacket, one of the best lifejackets around, containing the following in its pockets...
-Mcmurdo Fastfind Plus personal locator beacon with integral GPS, transmits your location accurate to 30 metres to the Cospas satellite within 2 minutes
-ICOM handheld radio in waterproof bag
-Flares
-I would like to add a helmet as there is a good chance of smacking your head on the panel in the event of a ditching and you don't need to be unconscious for long to miss your opportunity for emergency egress, as the terminology goes.
-I would consider a HEED emergency O2 system, but frankly the thought of having to use it horrifies me so much I am in denial about it.

Check out www.equipped.com for some very good and truly obsessive gear reviews.

I reckon that with the above equipment, presuming I get out of the aircraft, I will survive and get picked up in most British coastal waters.

QDM

[andrewc]

Recently crossed the North Sea in my SR-22, from North Dene
to SPY Holland outbound. I carry lifejacket, raft and EPR.

Interestingly I was not out of glide distance of a vessel
or platform for the whole ~100 mile trip though the Dutch
class-A airspace pushing you down to <1500ft is a real
pain.

I do think that if you're going to do this some experience
with instrument flying is essential as you frequently will
lose your visual horizon completely as the sky and the
sea merge in a dull-green haze.

Personally I think the latter is more of an issue than
the chance of losing your engine...it has happened to
me on three occasions in the past year.

-- Andrew

[Whirlybird]

I do think that if you're going to do this some experience
with instrument flying is essential as you frequently will
lose your visual horizon completely as the sky and the
sea merge in a dull-green haze.

I agree completely. If you can't see land AND you don't have some sort of horizon, even though you can see the sea and you're legally VFR, it's quite disorientating and you sometimes find you need to fly on instruments.

[Northern Highflyer]

Thanks guys n gals

That's what I was expecting. I was thinking some instrument experience must be very useful, if not a requirement. Having flown down the east coast last week I looked straight out to sea and found it slightly disorientating with the sea and sky merging and there being no other features to lock onto.

As for getting into a life raft, I can't even get into one of those rubber rings when paddling at the edge of the sea, never mind a life raft. :O

[gooneydog]

wonder if the lifejacket can double as a "Hi Viz Vest" :(