What is a Pa27 ???????????

[Negative 'G']

This has really started to get up my nose lately ! More & more Aztec drivers appear to be refering to their craft as a Pa27 !!!!!

Why ??????? Have they changed the Icao designator, or is it 27 ? I'll stand to be corrected, though I'm sure in my Aztec/Apache days they were known as Pa23's !:confused: :confused:

It reminds me of a phase several years ago when many chopper jocks refered to themselves as "Helo's", though it didn't stick for long :rolleyes:

Neg G :D

[DB6]

PA-27 Aztec - initial designation for PA-23-250 (from Airlife's General Aviation). Apparently the Aztec was certificated under the Apache's type certificate even though it had been developed as the PA-27, so it was never actually known as the PA-27..........I'll get my anorak......:8

[CSX001]

PA27 became the ICAO code for an Aztec some time ago, when PAZT was changed. PA23 was, and remains an Apache.

[Chilli Monster]

You'll find as well if you look at the aircrafts construction number (located lower fuselage beneath the fin) the larger engined models actually start "27-YY*****" (YY being the year of manufacture) following Pipers practice of model number being the first two digits.

To me it's an Aztec (an 'F' version in the case of the one I fly) - but it's a PA27 on the flight plan

[Negative 'G']

Ah I hold my hands up in respect, thank you everyone for answering something that was actually starting to annoy me:rolleyes:
I can honestly say that I've never noticed up until recently any indication of there being a Pa27 in existance, however thinking back the only type that I would have filed a flight plan for would have been a very old & unfortunately now deceased:( Pa23 Apache !

Thanks again chaps & chapesses, the next time I hear Pa27 mentioned on the R/T a big grin will surely grace my face:D :) :D

Neg G:D

[FlyingForFun]

Interesting!

When I flew an Aztec, I logged it as a PA23-250. Is that wrong? Should I amend my logbook? Very confused. :confused:

FFF
--------------

[Chilli Monster]

Funnily enough the first page of the POH says "PA23-250" and that's what I log it as too.

At least everyone understands that.

[Negative 'G']

So who is actually correct ? The Pa23 or Pa27 Brigade ?

Is this just another example of some smart@rse(s) who have nothing better to do than read "The history of Piper aircraft" book & study the ICAO codes and then share their SAD little findings with the rest of us over the R/T:{ :zzz: :zzz: :{

Or am I just being harsh ?:rolleyes:

Neg G

[Chilli Monster]

Negative 'G'

You're probably being a little harsh, but there is a grain of sense in what you're getting at.

I'll take off the pilot hat and put on the ATCO one now. I'd rather hear the name (Apache, Aztec etc) because with some of Mr Pipers products it has certain safety consequences.

I once saw a flight plan on an inbound - it said P28A. This is what appeared on the flight strip, this is what the controller thought he was getting. Said visitor requested an SRA. Controller was busy and didn't bother with gear check at 8 miles. At 3 miles he issued the landing clearance and got back "Roger, cleared to land, gear to come". It was an Arrow!

Who was at fault - the pilot, he actually filed a flight plan and put the wrong type on it. Knowing his ICAO codes would have prevented it. However, lots of people don't flight plan and it does make a difference at GA fields if you let us know whether you're a Cherokee, an Arrow, etc etc.

So yes, Neg 'G', you've got a point and although you've called it sad it can also have more serious consequences. PA32's are another example - is it a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear) or a Lance (retractable and faster)?

Names please boys and girls - it makes life easier (thereby making neither the '23 or the '27 brigade correct ;)).

[Timothy]

Negative G

You are completely misreading, misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. The aircraft is designated in the POH as a PA23E-250 (where the E might be a D or an F).

In flight plans until about 3 or 4 years ago it was allowable to put either PA23 or PAZT. The edict then came out from ICAO that we had to put PA27. I rather suspect that this requirement came from Route Charges, because an Apache isn't chargeable but an Aztec is (but I have no evidence of this.)

Once the FPL says PA27 ATCOs will tend to use that designator, particularly if, unlike Chilli, they are not familiar with the type, though I agree that it is more helpful if they identify us to others as Aztecs. When I check in on frequency I always call myself an Aztec, in the hope that the ATCO will do the same.

But one way or the other this has nothing to do with people being nerdish with Piper numbers. It is a change of rules imposed by ICAO.

If you don't keep up with the situation blame yourself, not those of us that do.

W

[bookworm]

I remember meeting an Aztec driver in the briefing room at Hamburg, preparing for an IFR flight and filing a FPL. He seemed to think the ICAO designator was PA28. ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Chilli Monster,

Hope this isn't taking us too far off topic - but I wasn't aware that ATC dealt with retractable aircraft any differently to fixed gear.

My Europa is retractable. Other Europas aren't. Whatever the gear configuration, the ICAO code is the same - EUPA. When I give my type to ATC, I always say "Europa". It would never occur to me to say "Europa monowheel", nor, I suspect, would most controllers realise that because I have a monowheel, it's retractable. Is this an issue? I hadn't thought of it as an issue before.

(Interestingly, I think it was at Duxford but I'm not sure, I once had a controller - or it must have been an AFISO if it was Duxford - ask me to confirm that my gear was down. I checked, and it was... and I realised that the unusual gear arrangement would probably confuse anyone who was looking at the aircraft and didn't know what they were looking for - they would probably not see enough wheels, and even if they knew how many wheels to look for, the top of the main wheel remains inside the wheel well when the gear is extended, so it probably looks like it's up when it's not if you're not close to it.)

FFF
---------------

[rustle]

(Interestingly, I think it was at Duxford but I'm not sure, I once had a controller - or it must have been an AFISO if it was Duxford - ask me to confirm that my gear was down. I checked, and it was... and I realised that the unusual gear arrangement would probably confuse anyone who was looking at the aircraft and didn't know what they were looking for - they would probably not see enough wheels, and even if they knew how many wheels to look for, the top of the main wheel remains inside the wheel well when the gear is extended, so it probably looks like it's up when it's not if you're not close to it.)

Blimey - you'd think that after > 3040 posts you could write in English FFF ;)

[FlyingForFun]

:O Quantity does not equal quality, I'm afraid!

FFF
-----------

[Chilli Monster]

FFFHope this isn't taking us too far off topic - but I wasn't aware that ATC dealt with retractable aircraft any differently to fixed gear.
Only in the following ways:

1) SRA phraseology (unlikely in the Europa as it's not approved for IMC, but may be your only option if you end up in it ;)) requires an undercarriage check during the approach.

2) When you get a range check from radar (say traffic on an instrument approach) a mental clock starts ticking. You know that certain retractables at 7 miles will beat the aircraft just starting the downwind leg to final - for some fixed gear the reverse is true. It's how you decide who will be number 1 and who will be number 2.

[UL730]

PA27 on flight plans for NATS/EUROCONTROL – for correct route charges. For continuity in the system once you are nominated a PA27 – you stay one.

PA23 outside EUROCONTROL area.

PAZT – for flight plans originally but now changed to PA27 so that charges can be levied when flying under IFR/SVFR. VFR flights are free of route charges for PA27 > 2000kgs.

Apache < 2000kgs – no route charges. PAZT for FP's

Yer get used to it after a couple of years and get on with other issues that are far more perplexing.

It's quite easy to say "PA27 Aztec" and ATC can correlate with their strips. ATC know that an Aztec is a flexible beast and can provide 160 to 4 or 100 at 10 - so Aztec drivers tend to "fit in"

Lovely aeroplane - whatever yer call it.

[Final 3 Greens]

Chilli

My understanding on the Piper singles is:

PA28 = fixed gear

PA28R = Arrer

PA28RT = Arrer 4

PA32 = fixed gear Six/Lance/Saratoga

PA32R = retract Lance or Saratoga

PA32RT = retract Lance II

However, I'm not an anorak and I will be pleased to be corrected by someone with more knowledge ;)

[Chilli Monster]

F3G

And your point is...........................?

[Final 3 Greens]

CM

PA32's are another example - is it a Cherokee 6 (fixed gear) or a Lance (retractable and faster)?

My point is that you oversimplified Piper single numbering and I was trying to be helpful, but your prickly response suggests this isn't appreciated, so I'll shut up.

[bookworm]

F3G

ICAO aircraft designators (Doc 8643) have a maximum of 4 characters. The only online version I can find is at AOPA (http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/acdesig.html).

P28A is the Cherokee 140 to Archer family.

P28B are the higher powered (201/235/236) fixed gear Cherokees and Dakota.

P28R is the Arrow (retractable) except

P28T which is the Arrow 4.

For the Apache/Aztec family, PA23 is the Apache, PA27 is the Aztec, PAZT does not exist.

[Keef]

Once upon a time, the "T" in the designator meant "Turbocharged". Then someone said it meant T-tail, and we have confusion.

Arrow 4 isn't much different from Arrow 1, 2 and 3 in performance. Arrow 4 is available with turbocharged engine, which makes a big difference - but you can't tell from the code if it is Turbo. Or can you?

[FlyingForFun]

Keef, I think the T for Turbo comes before the R?

So a PA28TR is a turbo Arrow. A PA28RT is an Arrow 4. And a PA28TRT would, I presume, be a turbo Arrow 4?

FFF
-----------

I've just done some research, and I'm completely wrong. Ok, not completely wrong, just a bit wrong.

The T for Turbo comes after the engine horsepower part. So a PA28R-201T is a turbo Arrow. A PA28RT-201 is an Arrow 4. And a PA28RT-201T is a turbo Arrow 4. I think!

FFF
-----------

[Final 3 Greens]

Bookworm

Thanks for that info. The PA28A certainly seems a broad church and in my experience has a difference in cruise speed of circa 20kts btween bottom and top models. Wonder if this is an issue for ATC or is a 90kt versus 110 cruise of little impact in real terms?

I notice that the PA32 is split into PA32, PA32R and PA32T (for the T tailed Lances), which makes sense.

[bookworm]

The issue that I was trying to get across is that you have just 4 characters for an ICAO designator. I've no doubt that Piper calls it a PA28R-201T or a PA28RT-201 but for the FPL it's a P28R or P28T.

[Final 3 Greens]

The issue that I was trying to get across is that you have just 4 characters for an ICAO designator. I've no doubt that Piper calls it a PA28R-201T or a PA28RT-201 but for the FPL it's a P28R or P28T.

Your point was well made and understood.

My second post was made after following your link and reading the ICAO info on the AOPA site.

Thus the PA28A takes in the PA28-140 (90 kts) to the PA28-181 (110kts) and means a 20kt cruise variation, which the ATCO may or may not find difficult, whcih was the thrust of my question.

The PA32 range is split (by ICAO) into PA32, PA23R and PA32T, which as I said makes more sense to me, as those three sub types sit together pretty well.

Thanks

F3G

[Timothy]

Is that a rule of thumb?

W

[Aerohack]

Returning somewhat belatedly to the original query, DB6 had it right. Certification of all Aztecs, from the Aztec 250 to the final model Turbo F, was 'grandfathered' on the Type Certificate of the PA-23 Apache. The official FAA-recognised designation of any Aztec is thus PA-23-250 (or -235 in the case of the Apache 235). Piper used factory serial nos. with 27- prefixes throughout Aztec production, presumably because the original Aztec 250 and Aztec B and the last Apaches 160s (G and H models) were on the line at the same time. ICAO designators aside, there is no such thing as a 'PA-27'.

[Final 3 Greens]

TallDark&Handsome

A good trick is to look at one of your hands (just one mind you) and, on most people, the number of digits is five. If you fold away the thumb it becomes 4

Now that's interesting, because thumbs are not digits.

So I ask myself, would I rather have the p*ss taken out of me for some obvious typos or for talking nonsense.

Makes me think of Churchill and Lady Astor ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

Not according to the Oxford Dictionary, which specifies fingers.

But if you want to quote a lesser source, good for you :O

[CSX001]

Boys acting their shoe-sizes as usual...

Anybody now unclear on what a PA27 is? Time to go and find something else to play with perhaps?

:D

Charlie
x

[Negative 'G']

Wow, I start a thread off & then turn my back for a week or two and.........:mad: :rolleyes:

Hehe, anyway thanks to everyone who contributed to the final answer that IN ACTUAL FACT THERE IS NO SUCH AEROPLANE CALLED A PA27

So the next time I hear some smart@rse waffling on the R/T about being a "know it all waffle waffle Pa27 etc...." I can think to myself WHAT A FC*KIN IDIOT ! :D :D :D

And before anyone jumps up to defend themselves or "others", Yes I do understand the worthy comments regarding the Aztecs ICAO code but at the end of the day an Aztec is a Pa23, always was & always will be :ok:


Neg G:D

[Timothy]

-veG

I guess you can think what you want, but the reason that aircraft are described as PA27 has been very clearly and simply explained to you by a number of Aztec pilots and ATCOs.

If you don't understand the reasoning, fine, but I think that reflects your intellectual capabilities rather than those using the terminology.

W

[Negative 'G']

WC :D

And before anyone jumps up to defend themselves or "others", Yes I do understand the worthy comments regarding the Aztecs ICAO code but at the end of the day an Aztec is a Pa23, always was & always will be

Hmmmmm I rest my case !:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Neg G:cool:

[Dunc]

I fly a PA27 - S**t I mean PA23 - NO make that an Aztec (But mine looks like an Apache as everyone keeps telling me).

My point is DOES IT REALLY MATTER!!!

So long as the message is understood. I hear far worse R/T than this.

The FISO at Elstree will not hear of an Aztec being called a PA23 you will be on the receiving end of his infamous dressing down.

If your blood boils by a pilot calling an Aztec a PA27 then maybe a cockpit is not the place for you.