When do you call for Pushback?

[LateLandingClearance]

The title asks the question, the reason I'm asking is below :)

It seems to become all the more common (and it must be said that some airlines are much worse at it than others), for Flight Deck crews to be asking us ATCers for pushback with doors open, steps/jetties attached, baggage belts in holds......etc.

Do you realise the impact this has on the rest of the traffic flow around the airport?

You call for push, an almost instant decision is made by the ATCO, based on speed/distance/priority of other traffic that is going to pass behind you, whether to push you or give you conditional against said other traffic. So if it's decided you'll be pushed, started and on your way before the other guy gets to you, push approved.

Then, you sit there, nothing happening, jetty still attached, still got a rear hold and door 2L to shut and the tailman still to put his flask down and get out of the tug, all this time the taxiway behind you is sterilised to any other movements.

So, a plea from frantic GMC controllers trying to move a lot of aluminium around the concrete. Call "ready for push" when both you and the aircraft are ready. You've got notification on the flight deck when doors are open and a pushback crew to tell you when everything is detached. Please use them and help us keep everyone moving to their intended destination. :D

[GlueBall]

After the doors are closed and when the ground crew is ready. :O

[typhoonpilot]

Obviously you have never been in Kaohsiung at 10:00 pm when a 30 second delay in the call for push made you 30 minutes late. We used to call for push as the last passenger was walking up the air stair and would be ready within 10 seconds of that event. If we didn't do that then China Airlines, Eva, Formosa, Makung, Trans Asia, and Uni Air would all be ahead of us.

The moral of that story is that some crews are conditioned to call for push back anticipating being ready in very short order. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.

Typhoonpilot

[Nerik]

Quite a few airports are noe fitted with cameras near the parking stands and the controllers are able to see whether an aircraft is actually ready or not. In MXP people get told off (sometimes) if they call for push and the controller sees that they are not yet ready.

[av8boy]

Quite a few airports are [now] fitted with cameras near the parking stands and the controllers are able to see whether an aircraft is actually ready or not.
Gotta hate this.

Said it before and I'll say it again: I'm in my third decade of doing this and I am, from time to time, disappointed. The aircrew/atc relationship is clearly a "belt and suspenders (braces)" arrangement: We trust each other but never bet lives or careers on a single plan. There is, however, a point where this simply becomes ridiculous. I say "say heading" and you say your heading. Not always exact, but we're speaking the same language here and you understand the accuracy which is required. Same thing with "say airspeed" or "say mach number." Or you're on a mile final and say, "wind check." I check wind direction and speed (which shows wind direction varying by 10 or 15 degrees and speed up and down five or seven knots) and I extract the info you're needing. Rather than keying the mike and reporting "wind 270 at 13...wind now 265 at 11...wind now 262 at 14..." I give you a direction and speed that appears, based upon my watching it for the last hour, to best represent the conditions you're likely to see in the flare. If the wind turns to, say, 170 at 12 while you're on final you can bet you'll know about it. It is all part of our understanding.

I know this is a rant, but I'm troubled. Are you saying that an aircrew is calling for push and a controller is looking at a monitor and saying, "you're not ready to push. You've still got a door open (etc)?" Who the hell has time for this game? Puts me in mind of the dead parrot skit. Honestly, doesn't a "push clearance void time" make more sense than video monitoring? It would certainly limit the arguments about whether your push is dead or simply "pining for the fjords..." Look, it’s your airframe. If you say you’re on fire, you’re on fire. However, if you say you’re on fire you shouldn’t be surprised when the crash trucks are there to meet the aircraft. Likewise, if you say you’re ready to push, well, you get it…

I'm a tad sleep-deprived at the moment and I’ve got a touch of flu as well, and so I am uncertain about whether or not I've made a valid (clear/lucid) point here. Forgive me if I've gone astray. All I'm trying to reiterate is that neither aircrew nor ATC have time to baby-sit the other on the fundamentals. They never have. We’d ALL loathe it.

Dave :hmm:

PS Steve, give an old controller a break... :O

[tallseabird]

I can remember a time when a (certain) pilot from a (certain) airline used to complain when another airline pushed behind him blocking him in and subsequently noticed that the (certain) airline would call for push in advance to 'sterilise' the area behind him awaiting his hallowed presence - after all he was in a big rush, he had to spend hours getting right back to where he started.

[LateLandingClearance]

GlueBall - Thanks, you've made my day :ok: :D

AV8 - aircrew is calling for push and a controller is looking at a monitor and saying, "you're not ready to push. You've still got a door open (etc)?" Who the hell has time for this game?

I've got time for this game if it means not getting a backlog of aircraft trying to get into a cul-de-sac while waiting for someone to push who isn't actually going to for 3-4 minutes. As a result, I'd have other aircraft on circuitous routings to avoid the traffic jam adding to my workload.

For sure I'll count myself among those who will ask a pilot to call when he's really ready if I can see lots of activity still going on around the aircraft - but only if waiting for him is actually going to have an effect on traffic flow. If his pushback isn't going to conflict with anything else then ride out the wait for a few minutes and see how it goes.

As for comparing fire with pushbacks - well, apples and potatos spring to mind. Totally different scenarios with no common ground. If they call for push and I can see there's not even a tug connected then I know he can't be ready. If he says he's on fire, there's no way I can know that what he's saying is wrong - nor would I assume I knew better. :rolleyes:

Hopefully this thread will serve the purpose I had originally intended for it. To highlight to aircrew the knock-on effect of their actions - and maybe we can work together to keep things "on the rails". :)

[PAXboy]

Outsiders comment: I can imagine that there is an agreement that a/c will only request 'push' when they are ready? It might be at the bottom of half a ton of paper contracts but it'll be there somewhere! If it does ...

If a/c requests push and does not move within ... 90 seconds?? then the details just get noted back to the carrier. No penalties or inquiries - just Name and a/c number.

If that happens too many times, then carrier bosses are going to know. As I say, don't make a fuss just report them as being out of order. If it happens to the point where a particular carrier is cropping up on the lists and still does nothing, then it might be time to talk money.

Given that we hear that all airports are being hurried and harried for greater efficiency, waiting four minutes for someone who is taking advantage of the rules, has to be stopped.

If no such agreement exists, then ATC bosses should be asked to invent one, so as to improve timely departure of all a/c.

Before flight crew tell me to bog off:
I can well understand that some crew get used to particular ways of handling at other fields in other countries. But LateLandingClearance is obviously talking about the UK. OK, now tell me that I know nothing about time-keeping and management checking the sheets every day to see if you dropped a minute and I'll tell you about 23 years in commerce with an increasing army of managers breathing down my neck. At times I have been that manager! We are not talking airmanship here, otherwise I would not speak in this manner.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I like the idea of issuing a Clearance Expiry time. Maybe give them 3 minutes to make a move or a new clearance is required.

[av8boy]

Well, ok then…
I've got time for this game if it means not getting a backlog of aircraft

Actually, you DON’T have time for this game either. You’re having to verify a whole new level of information and that’s my point. I’m saying that adding more to your plate is not the way to solve this problem.

As for comparing fire with pushbacks - well, apples and [potatoes] spring to mind.

Well, that’s not what I was doing. I pray that you realize this. My point was that we spend all day assuming that aircrew statements generally approximate the truth. I believe that the key here is to encourage veracity, not spend time double-checking every aircrew claim.

Let me try to be more clear:

1. Aircrew lies to get ahead of the game? Bad.
2. Controller issues clearance based on an aircrew lie and this jams up all other traffic? Bad.
3. Controller has to consult a video monitor to ensure aircrew isn’t lying? Bad.

Come on. The last thing I want to do working ground is to get into an argument about whether or not an airframe is truly ready to push. Driver says “ready,” I say “push,” and if nothing happens, then something’s got to hit the fan. That was the point about fire. If the driver says he or she is on fire or ready for an immediate takeoff or in moderate turbulence, than that’s what I’m depending on. If they’re going to lie about any of this for personal gain, then there’s going to be official trouble. But for me to have to visually verify that they’re telling the truth on any of these things will take me away from solving the problems I’m paid to solve. Sure, we always have a contingency plan, but we go with a primary plan based upon the representations made.

And as for apples and potatoes… both edible, somewhat spherical plant life? Yeah. Close

Bottom line: I agree this is a problem. I agree that there’s work to be done. There was work to be done the first time I ran into this issue in 1976. I probably should have had it fixed by now. Sorry.

Dave :ugh:

[JW411]

I am on a ramp at an airfield fully ready with tug connected and call for "Push and Start". The ramp cannot be seen from the tower.

I am told to hold position for the aircraft on my left has already been cleared to push.

I look at said aircraft and not only does he not have a tug connected, there isn't a tug in sight!

Although from an another airline, both aircraft are using the same handling agent so I ask my tug driver where the tug for the other aircraft is?

The astonishing reply was that my tug was going to the other aircraft AFTER they had pushed me back!

What sort of pillock calls for "Push and Start" when not only does he not have a tug connected but his tug is already connected to another aircraft?

[N28000]

Q. What sort of pillock calls for "Push and Start" when not only does he not have a tug connected but his tug is already connected to another aircraft?
A. A Pilot - says it all really, people who are trained to fly but don't have any qualifications in common sense

[PAXboy]

OK - granted that looking at a monitor to verify status is not the answer - given that you would have to select one of (potentially) a hundred cameras and not all will be working at the right time, or might have some other gear parked in front of them.

So what to do?

A new system would be bad, whether it is a visual camera check or another computer screen.

Is there a computer system that is ALREADY in the loop, where 'Push Request' can be entered with a single keystroke [Function Key] so that 'Request Expired' can clock up 180 seconds later?

[tallseabird]

Your one to talk

"with the bridge connected and 1 door open, but I do it only when I am certain that the door is in the process of being closed"

What is the definition of a door being closed?

I don't often get the chance to fligg some dung, normally I have to kowtow to the God in the front left hand seat.

If I really wanted to fling some dung there is not enough space on prune but every once in a while it is theraputic.

[chiglet]

Seen it umpteen times:} "XXX start and push"..look out of window...no tug:mad:
Yonks ago, on a Fam Flt...."Ground to FD" "Go Ahead" "We've removed your tug":confused: :confused:
"WE" were ready to start and push [DC10, 350 pax...with a slot] The "Handling Agent" took the tug to a DC8 Freighter...no slot, no pax:confused: :rolleyes:
On the other hand, I've lost cout of the "Ready" calls with no tug in evidence.
Silly thing though...An A330 [for some reason] did a "Strobe Check"....no safety person, nowt...stopped vehicular tfc for 25 mins. If it wern't tragic, it'd be funny..I think
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[1261]

Without slinging any mud.....

Certainly at EDI crews call for push (and start) routinely when they are not fully ready. I'm sure that they're under a great deal of pressure to acheive on-time departures, but it really is deeply unhelpful - particularly as we can't see a bloody thing from the tower and so have to rely one hundred percent on what crews tell us.

I cringe each time someone says "but he's still got a door open" when they're given a conditional pushback on the aircraft next them - do they have any idea how unprofessional the resulting "XXX 3HY are you really ready to push? Do you have a tug?" sounds on the frequency?

It's particularly annoying when four or five aircraft from the same company, all parked on adjacent stands, all with the same planned departure time, get into this routine, but it happens almost every day.

And that's really where the blame lies, for my money, with the aircraft operators. Can't blame the crews too much when the root cause is outwith their control. They don't want to loose their place in the queue, so they try to pre-empt. It should be the crews who complain to the companies for boxing them in to start with!

[tallseabird]

You don't let up do you, I suggest you have a careful read of the post. What does 'fligg' refer to, don't worry I worked it out, I'll leave you to figure out your/you're to your/you're hearts content.

This is exactly what this post is about - is there some magical shade of green on the ECAM that tells you the door is about to close.
This is typical of the 'Gods' I was talking about, they sit in that front left hand seat but they know the best way to load bags in the hold, the quickest way to clean in between seats, exactly how to corral pax to have them in their seats (sorry was that the wrong they're, there, their) on time and all without blinking an eye.

I started this by retelling some thing I know happened, that is not any form of wit just reporting a fact.

[LateLandingClearance]

OK, bringing this back onto track...

I'm pretty sure the door is about to close when the Purser comes into the cockpit and asks "God" if it's OK to close the door

Without wishing to inflame the issue, this is where some of the difficulties are encountered.

Purser/depatcher asks if it's OK to close door, you say yes, purser leaves flight deck and you call for push.

That leaves an awful lot of dead time while you are ready, but the aircraft and ground crew aren't. Purser/despatcher has to walk back maybe 1/3 length of aircraft to close door, attract attention of someone on ground (who's probably sat in the tug chatting with the pushback crew ;) ) to remove the steps, get said steps out the way and then get the pushback crew doing what they do.

So, without trying to tell you how to do it, this is why I suggest a good final check before calling for push is to check with the headset man that all equipment is out of the way.:confused:

[Max Angle]

This is typical of the 'Gods' I was talking about, they sit in that front left hand seat but they know the best way to load bags in the hold, the quickest way to clean in between seats, exactly how to corral pax to have them in their seats (sorry was that the wrong they're, there, their) on time and all without blinking an eye. Unless the chip on your other shoulder is the same size you must have trouble standing up straight!.

[Farty Flaps]

Well if you're BY at Man on 206 a few weeks ago, then when you jolly well like and to hell with the system if you've got a slot to make even if there are two containers still to be loaded and no tug.

Piddly little 737@s all locked up and ready to go next door be dammed.we're the BA of charter y'know.

Your bird major

[tallseabird]

Fish suppers are more my line, but its good to knwo (oh look a spellig mistake) that free speech is not dead

[Little One]

We do not have a holding bay at the threshold of our dep RWY and from GMC we "try" and presquence acft on the pushback so that they will taxi in a semi decent departure order as once acft are in the lane the order they are pushed is the order that they will depart unless we use intersection departures (tell us on push if you can) so the call"Ground, we have problem, will call you back again ready to push" can really @*3! the plan you had but RATHER DO THIS THAN NOT PUSH cause you will just back log the entire system. I can make a new plan if neccesary that is the whole idea why they train us. But a point to remember that this could have delayed someone on the same SID that was now told to stby for sequencing.

As far as having camera's I think that the time it would take to look at that having to select correct feed etc is probable about the same time as it takes to ask Confirm you are pushing. If they don't come back with an answer or say afirm and don't move within 15sec after that I'll cancel the push if I need the lane behind and then acft goes at back of start queue.

Unfortunetly especially during ATC delays due FLOW that often when you are now ready to push an acft that the Tug has dissapeared cause the handling agent thinks that another acft is going to get push. When there are delays like this (excess 30 min) ussually when I see that I will push an acft shortly I'll tell them expect push in 3min etc gives the crew time to check that the tugs still there and they can wake up the driver etc. (I'm not that good that 3min is exact its just a guess so that the ball gets rolling and we don't have a situation where the tugs on another acft)