HELP! Multi-rating (& time building) on Senecas in Florida?

[Arrowhead]

So here is the dilemma. I will soon start the IR (ME) on Senecas here in the UK, and need the multi rating and some time (15 hrs should do it) on the Seneca.

First problem: I am morally opposed to paying £207-£270/hour here (Headcorn-Fairoaks) when it is so much cheaper in the US. I already have my FAA single engine licence (converted from my CAA licence several years ago) and love flying around the Bahamas.

But I cannot find a school in Florida that has both (a) JAA approval for a multi rating, and (b) Senecas. Ormond Beach, Naples, and Orlando all have Seminoles. Meanwhile Britannia and several others do have Senecas but are not expecting JAA approval until the new year.

1) Has anyone found a school in Florida doing JAA approved multi ratings on Senecas? How quick/easy is it then to hire a Seneca for x-country - do I need an FAA ME rating? Is that easy to get off my (then newly-acquired) JAA rating?

2) Has anyone obtained their multi rating here and then hired a Seneca in the US? Where from? How easy is it to get my FAA licence upgraded to multi? How long will it take? What are the pitfalls?

Over to you. Please help because I dont want yet more money to go to Oxford in Texas unless absolutely necessary! :yuk: :D


p.s. :sad: has anyone noticed how virtually EVERY US school wont return phone calls/emails. I am staggered at how the training industry says it is in a "crisis", and yet I want to spend £££000s, and they cant even return phone calls. Unbelieveable.....

[NinjaBill]

caeaviation (http://www.caeaviation.com/) have senecas for hire for £90/hr wet. I spoke to the guy there, and he was very helpful, although ive never been there before. Give them a call, and see if they can help you out.

NB

[Gin Slinger]

Arrowhead - I suspect the spanner in your works will be the US schools' minimum experience requirements set down by their insurers.

There will probably be a requirement for a 'safety pilot' to accompany you, namely one of their instructors who will be logging the time, in which case you can't log it as P1, thereby partly negating the whole point of the exercise.

For your information, I did my MEP in the US and wish I hadn't bothered - not that there was anything intrinsically wrong with the training, but when I came to do my JAR Multi IR back in the UK, I had to re-learn a lot of the drills and techniques as they are often subtly different for the IR.

Flying a Multi on two engines is no scarcely different from a SE Complex, and I don't think you'd really want to do a cross-country nav asymmetric anyway.

[silverknapper]

This issue of safety pilots in the states has been brought up before here. Could anyone eloborate as I considered doing the multi there when I saw this thread
1. Do they charge you for him/her
2. Was it a surprise to get there and find you needed them
3. Are they logging it as P1, even though you are doing all the work and sitting on the left

Obviously wouldn't go if I wasn't getting the hours!

Cheers

SK

[Keygrip]

Arrowhead,

GinSlinger has pretty much nailed it for you.

Delta Connection (ex-Comair) have a few Senecas (I think they are Seneca II's). They are the only JAA school operating them - and even they have a big bunch (about 20) Seminoles that they usually use for training.

Having said that - one way round it (in theory) would be to do the rating on the easiest and cheapest aircraft and then do a conversion course to Seneca when you understand what is happening (the Oxford, Tyler, Seneca of which you speak is a Seneca III - with turbochargers and overboost problems that you don't need for those INITIAL six to ten hours of training).

The other problem is that if your FAA SEP licence was issued "on the basis of" your JAA licence then the answer may be "No - you cannot add another rating to it". Problem there is that, despite the official paperwork and guidance, individual offices (and officers) have their own take on the regulations and, especially if you FAA was issued before the regs changed in July 2002, some will allow you to add, some will not.

A slightly deeper problem is that if you do a JAA MEP class rating you then need to apply for the rating (mailing log book and licence and application form [with a cheque for £64] to the CAA in Gatwick) before you can have it added to any FAA qualifications - and that, in turn, will require the standard £15 to the CAA and application forms to both the CAA and FAA (as you do now for all licence exchange).

This would mean that you are now grounded - as you would have no JAA licence to support the FAA one that you carry.

If you really want to do it in Florida - then why not do an FAA rating (which is slightly harder anyway) - and then convert THAT into a JAA one??

Having said that - you will still (VERY likely) need to carry a safety pilot until you have some 25 to 50 hours of MEP experience. The "logging" of flight time would come down to the integrity of the flight instructor (who will almost definately want to log it P1 himself)...............and YES, you would almost certainly have to pay for the instructor to ride with you during this time.

Why don't they call you back?? Some are just generally crap at it - others may not have the interest to respond if they cannot give you the training that you are demanding - others have muppets on the phone who don't have a clue what they are talking about if it is not straight forward, standard PPL, training for the average Joe.

I would also look at the finances a bit closer - with the FULL cost of travel to the USA (full costs of full day for visa application - including travel to the Embassy, driving to Gatwick or wherever for the trans-atlantic flight, the cost of living in USA [food, entertainment and transport], maybe a uniform for the school, possibly another FAA medical, extra application fees, additional instructor fees for "dual" hour building, etc. etc.) then I would not think the SAVINGS would be sufficiently significant to make it all worthwhile for the exercise you want.

Consider doing a quality course at Headcorn - which might not have landing fees for based aircraft (dunno about that??) - then consider taking an instrument rated instructor/safety pilot with you and go do some low cost I/R training before you attend the real I/R course. Get the check list from the school that you will go to for the I/R and see if the local school will accept that check list for operations in their own aircraft. Overall - a much better product.

Send me an "e" if there are any other questions nagging at you.

[malaysian eaglet]

In fact it is possible to transfer a class rating from non -JAA state (reference LASORS Section F page 24).
You need to see the head of training where you intend to do your IR. Taking into account your experience a reduce training can be completed but a theorical examination and the skill test will be still required.
For information, in Malaysia we operate Seneca III, we are following the CAP 509 syllabus at the present time, as we have h particular links with UK CAA, from your UK license it must not be a big deal to stamp your rating . For info, we are going JAR in a short while but we have not yet started the procedure of approval: we are not yet JAR (However we have some JAR FI)
The Flying hour on SENECA III (something less than 200 GBP per hour - to check with the Academy-) is one of the cheapest. Malaysia is an enjoyable country that you must visit, accomodation and food are incredibly cheap, the weather in Malacca is nice for flying.
Visa can be arranged easily.
My suggestion: first contact the FTO where you will do your IR, and discuss the conversion of your MEP (can be reduced to a bare minimum if well combined with your IR)
Secondly if you are interested by Malaysia contact us

[dorosenco]

Arrowhead,

Doing your MEP and time building in the same type and model is not a requirement. Why don't you do your JAA MEP in a Duchess (much easier to find) and then time building in a Seneca ? Seneca is a heavly underpowered piece of ****. Duchesses and Seminoles are much better.

Try European Flight Training in Fort Pierce, FL. They do JAA MEPs for $280/hr in BE76s (Duchesses). I know, it is not really cheap compared to the UK. That's the problem ! JAA approved schools in the US know the prices in Europe and they give you discounts which are still much higher than US prices for FAA licenses ...

Check my website : www.passion2fly.com I have two Senecas and 5 Duchesses for training in San Diego, CA. I know it is the West coast but is so much better than the East coast ...

Send me a private mail [email protected] if you need more infos...

Good Luck with your training !
:ok:

[Superfly]

As for the aircraft type : Why don't you do the multi -engine rating on a seminole ? I did mine on that aircraft at Ormond Beach and found NO PROBLEM whatsoever to adapt to the Senaca after .... ... performace / speed is roughly the same , mags, switches, engine bits and peaces are situated in the same place ( pannel on the left) .... after I passed my ME , The guy at Ormond beach ( Adrian Thompson) , let me take the Seminole down to Nassau , with my instructor (unpaid) for safety reason and was addament to let me go solo after 10 more hours.... Ok it doesn't mean that he would let everybody do it. I've got to say that the ME was the most enjoyable part of my whole training.. and performance demonstration of single engine operation with HOT wheather was FUN and very interesting..... I won't praise OBA enough for it .. It might be weird to hear something nice about OBA once in a blue moon but I would recommend them if you're thinking about doing the ME in Florida.

Superfly

[Arrowhead]

Okay I think I have made up my mind.

1) Orlando Flight Training to do the CPL in 3 weeks - not Tyler which is 5 weeks (rip off), and I get it done before xmas in sunnier Florida.

2) Straight onto JAA multi on a Seminole also at OFT - I heed your advice on Seneca/Seminole conversion.

3) Over to Britannia at Lakeland (have used these guys before and trust them, and they are 45min from Kissimmee) for the FAA multi rating, and type rating on the Seneca (ready for IR on Senecas at Oxford in New Year).

Looks like I was never going to get rid of the safety pilot, so I might as well use any co-pilot to do training/type rating. Doing the FAA multi rating will also mean I dont have to worry about all this licence/rating conversion crap, I hope......


I am sticking to the Florida option since "initial savings" are about £2800 based on 15-20 hours. Less accomodation, transfers, flights means I am still about £2000 in pocket even ignoring the cost to travel from home in SW London to Fairoaks/wherever.

Thankyou all for your advice.

ps OFT actually picked up the phone and were helpful (ie had the right guy to talk to there and then).

Meanwhile Britannia actually called me back and emailed me.

Two very big ticks in boxes.....:ok:

[BritishGuy]

check ur pm's arrowhead.

[Arrowhead]

pm's??

:confused:

[BritishGuy]

thats private messages.