Tornado F3 maximum speed?

[ACW599]

I'm a Vigilant driver with a VGS. One of my students is doing very well; he's very keen on flying and wants to go on to fast jets. He particularly likes the Tornado F3.

Yesterday we were discussing straight and level flight, and how the Vigilant's speed would change with power. He asked me what speed an F3 would reach if you started off at say 250kts straight and level, opened up to full power and maintained S/L? He also asked how long it would take to reach its maximum? I said I didn't know, but knew where I could ask the questions!

Assuming the answers aren't classified, can any kind soul give me the information so that I can pass it on?

John

[Ghostflyer]

John,

At high altitude, similar to a Vigilant, about an hour to 251 knots! Only kidding!

On the deck, say 1000' amsl, acceleration in full reheat from 250 kts to Vne of 750kts would take less than 30 secs. The aircraft would still be accelerating and would not brick wall until approaching 900 kts. The acceleration is impressive but when the burners are pulled out the decelleration is even fiercer.

At high altitude the jet accelerates relatively slowly from 250kts indicated until the intake ramps start to work at about 1.2 mach but then, if clean, will accelerate nicely until the fuel runs out or mach 2+ is reached.

The crews main consideration in these circumstances, beyond getting the shot, is how fast the fuel disappears over the side.

Hope that helps,

Ghost:ok:

[maxburner]

Some years ago, before I knew any better, I saw 850IAS at sea level (yes, the ground was below sea level) and the jet was still accelerating. We went past an F18, which was in full blower and doing his best, with about 100 kts of overtake. It was a pretty sight. At high level I've seen Mach 2, but the fuel gauge was saying ''go home''.

[whowhenwhy]

Of course you have to try and get the pesky things out of the HAS to do all of that fancy stuff and away from the engineers. Now that gentlemen is the trick!:ok:

[ACW599]

Wow. It's just a little quicker than a Vigilant then!

Very many thanks to those who replied. My student will be highly impressed. Now all I need to work out is how to get a ride in an F3 myself to verify these numbers <g>.

Thanks again.

John

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I was always told that the F3 was just about the faster low level interceptor there was.

How does the F15E compare? I believe its optomised for somewhat higher altitude - pure fighter - alts but what would actually be the outcome in a 1000ft amsl race?

What would be the outcome if you threw a B1-B into the ring? Surely those four big engines and even bigger tanks would win any race..?

Cheers

WWW

[ACW599]

Being a devout fan of the F4 and Lightning, I'd also love to know how they would have compared. (Cue lots of WIWOL stories, hopefully. . .)

John

[BEagle]

F4 - at least FG1 or FGR2 wouldn't have a chance in the low level speed contest. I got transonic once chasing 4 Jaguars, but nowhere near 700KIAS......

[Steve Davies]

WWW,

Even with PW-229s (29,550 LB thrust in AB), an F-15E is not going to get close to the acceleration figures of the F.3 mentioned above.

At LL the Strike Eagle is limited to a dash speed just above the MACH because of avionics cooling considerations for its LANTIRN pods, so I don't think it really gets close.

I'd have thought that the old F-111 may have been able to give the Fin a run for its money, though!

Cheers

Steve

[Soulman]

The F-111 is quoted at Mach 1.2 at Sea Level, so I dare say they'd have a good run. Think the Pig would out-do it for noise but! :p

The B-1 is quoted as High Subsonic to Mach 1 at low level - funny, you'd think with two donks under each wing, she'd give anything a run for it's money. :confused:

How would the Russian counterparts stand up to our American and British friends? The latest Sukhoi's are pretty awesome from what I have heard. :)

Cheers,

Souls.

[maxburner]

Beags,

You weren't trying! I saw 825 indicated in an FGR2. In the back of my mind I remembered something about the release to service and when we slowed down and took the beast home we found out, from a senior QWI chappie, that the limit in our config was 750. Ooops. However, the gingers looked her over and found nothing untoward and she was back on the line next day. Happy days.

[ORAC]

The Lightning was cleared 650kts clean, 620kts with the probe.

[FFP]

Bet that 620 kts limit was useful for that extra overtake needed for tanking !!!

[BEagle]

maxburner - was that at '250 feet' though? I certainly saw a lot more then 800 kts on the digital groundspeed thing at medium level.

If you managed to get 825+ out of it at low level, you can't have had many tanks, 'winders or anything else on, I guess. But "Respec' " if you did!

And yes, 825 was waaaaaaaaaay over any clearance limit!

[yoyonow]

Beagle glad to hear that all it takes to gain your 'respec' is push the throttles forward and ignore any release to service.

BTW saw M1.3 at 100' on the Vark and 1000kts ground speed a bit higher up, all legal

[BEagle]

Probably only some peacetime pansy limit put on the old jet anyway. Most were so $hagged and bent that such speeds defied the laws of physics with those draggy Spey intakes:ugh:

But yes, well done, you stuck to the rules. Which are made for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men:E

Of course TSR2 would have whipped the ugly old Polymorphic Pig's ar$e if it had been allowed to:ok:!!

[D-IFF_ident]

Couldn't the Hunter do 720 Kts IAS at low level? I thought the F3 was the fastest though - M2.3? Great for a high-level interceptor etc.

[ORAC]

F3......M2.3.......high level interceptor... You've made my day. I needed a good laugh. :p ;)

p.s. I think the Hunter was 720mph/620Kts

[osbo]

Ghostflyer

"On the deck, say 1000' amsl, acceleration in full reheat from 250 kts to Vne of 750kts would take less than 30 secs"

Really?

So if you were doing 250KIAS and at the moment I passed abeam you at 480KIAS you had just reached full blower, 30 seconds later you would be ahead of me? (your average speed over the 30secs being 500KIAS). B8gger me!

Any thoughts anyone?

[Pope Mobile]

The F14A was capable of 250-550 (clean jet) in 30 seconds at 1000'. The B was slower accelerating initially. Both aircraft produce significantly more thrust, (esp the B) and have a wingsweep computer that is way clevererererer than the average F3 driver. ;) (It's called banter, dry your eyes)
If the F3 can do those figures quoted above I'll be very, very, very (very) surprised. Very surprised.
Standing by to not be very suprised.

[Roland sizzers]

Managed M1.8 at 6,000' in a Tornado F3 some 10 years ago. Sure somebody will top this? But it made the old Mighty Fin sing like a tuning fork. Incidently it was 1375Kts ground-speed on the TV Tabs.

Didn't select IAS in the HUD, beauty of older technology is that you can select the display of IAS or Mach but not both (I wasn't busting the Mach Limit!)

All ended in tears when the left reheat blew out and both DECU's lost control for a while. Deceleration was probably more impressive then the acceleration, especially for the nav who smacked his helmet on the TV Tabs and stayed stuck there whilst calling me a ****.

Wouldn't do it nowadays as too many people have tested the burning qualities of titanium.

F15 will out accelerate F3 to 550kts (just) but then it kind of stops.

Different story in dry power only - F3 is quick but no prizes for fuel efficiency.:p

[ACW599]

Slightly OT but am I the only person in the world to have read and thoroughly enjoyed Bob Prest's book 'F-4 Phantom?'. IMHO it's one of the finest books ever written about FJ operations -- wonderful stuff.

When he reads this thread, my cadet is going to ask me whether Vne for a fast jet varies a great deal with height (translation: his instructor wants to know before he gets asked the awkward question!) I assume it also varies quite a lot with fit?

Just to put it all in perspective, the Vigilant has a Vne of 121kts. I suspect most current fast jets stall at higher speeds than that!

John

[tony draper]

Indeed I have Bob Prests book, picked it up at a car boot sale,for 10p , enjoyed it a lot.

[BEagle]

Yes - but reading Rob's book, you'd get the impression that he never flew with a GiB!

[ACW599]

Out of interest -- and I know I started this thread and apologise for the drift (although it's extremely interesting) -- is the book pretty true to life? It certainly feels it to the lay reader.

John

[Lima Juliet]

11yrs on the Lincolnshire Land Shark and these are my best scores:

870kts IAS @ LL (with missiles!).

M2.1 @ 43,000 and very short of fuel (even more so when the re-heat purged passing the gate!).

Chased down B1-B in Denmark (O'sea) and also F-111s in Alaska.

Never got to try it against a Fencer as he ran away at 60 miles!

LJ

[tony draper]

I enjoyed the two Johns second book Team Tornado, but what the hell do I know, I only ever drove a 62000 ton supertanker, they did about 15 knotts.
Well, 62000 ton, was a super tanker then.
;)

[scran]

Yup - read Rob Prest's book a few years ago.

Hey Tony - how long did it take the 60,ooo ton tanker to accelerate from stationary to 15 knots?




3 weeks?

:E :E :E :E

[Ghostflyer]

Standby for blah dihorrea! Eat your heart out Beags

Osbo,

Haven't bothered doing the sums, the long winter nights fly past quickly enough as it is.

A nice thought of yours, but, that would only apply if the acceleration were linear and due to the bypass design of the F3's donks, it only starts to get going when it gets some ram effect. Accel from say 250-300 takes much longer than from say 500-550. Obviously the jet will catch you shortly thereafter.

The other end of the same stick. Once as a first tourist I intercepted a Bear D in my shiny new hot pursuit ship. Felt the bees knees, waved the piccys and then looked on embarrassed as it out climbed me when the AoA got to max and the bernoullis fell off the wing. It was no consolation to me that I whistled past him about 3 times and waved for a couple of seconds on the way.:yuk:

Pope,

Did I tell you about when I reached warp 7 at 3 inches, now thats bl**dy fast:ok:

Orac,

You are right about a lot of the stats but it depends how clean and new the jet really is.

Late 80s had to pick up a totally clean jet (No Laus or anything) from Coningsby for delivery to Leeming. Managed to get just over 2.15 before the talking fuel gauge started bleating about the fuel. Walked into the crewroom proud as punch, told the QFI and he reminded me that 2.2 was the BAe brochure limit and the old release to service thing was 2.0M. He then invited me to hang my spurs up..

Mid 90s flew the detuned blighters with aqui rounds on and couldn't get past 1.5 with a lead weight attached. How times had changed

Mate of mine flew an F-15E small donk without conformals and totally clean on a flight back from maintenance in Ga. (The clean jet with 229s is still strapped to the pad at the Cape) They got to just over 2.3 and it was pulling like mad (Limit 2.5) before the pesky stab decided to give up the ghost.

Ghost

Did I tell you about when....:zzz:....All the blahring has worn me out, off back to my bath chair

[Ali Barber]

Loved the IAS/Mach selector in the F-3 HUD. Once saw 8 hundred and lots when I flicked to IAS so flicked it back to Mach where it was still within the Release to Service limits! The F-3 was supposed to be the fastest accelerating aircraft in the world (at low level), much better than the GR due to better area ruling with the extended fuselage. But, did hear of a Fulcrum or Flanker that left a very fast F-16 for dead in Scandanavia.

Did the TWU on the Hunter (admittedly the heavier Mk 9) and the first solo was to go at 2000 ft down the coast with the throttle in the top left corner and see what you could get. Can remember seeing the shock waves starting to form over those bumps out on the wing, going just subsonic. Loved that aircraft.

Lightning was fast but couldn't get near the F-3 top speed at low level. Think the F-4 was the same. They both ended up going sideways!

Spoke with some B-1B guys a while ago. If they get bounced by a fighter they select full reheat and leave it there for an hour, running Mach 1 plus at low level. No fighter is going to stay with that. They also said that if the tanker was short of gas, they could pump it back up the boom!:ok:

[ARXW]

I believe the Lightning could actually do 750kts on deck (250'?)

At high alt it could definitely outrun the Tornado though ;)

[tony draper]

I think a modified civilian owned F104 still has the low alt, high speed dash record.
And of course Thrust 2., although I think another F104 sans wings and wheel fitted us going after Thrust 2s pelt.

[BEagle]

Are you referring to Thrust 2 or Dead Dog's Thrust SSC? Which, I am proud to say, was something I was proud to support to the tune of a few hundred quid or so (Spec Aircrew small change!).

[tony draper]

Indeed you are correct Mr Beagle Thrust SSC I meant.
It wicks me off that nobody got a knighthood for that, that used to be the protocol for our speed record breakers.

[Vfrpilotpb]

If said F3 ran out of Diesel whilst at full chat,
would it:-

manage to glide to a landing point(if one was available)

manage to land without engines,

Has it ever happened? :eek:

[bakseetblatherer]

The top speed for the F3 is pretty irrelevant at the moment. The RAF FJ's are flying to achieve hours only (which can be put into graphs and be assessed by bean-counters; unlike combat proficiency!) so cannot spend to much time in burner (waste of fuel which could be better used for flying at endurance speed to achieve Sqn mandated hours) or with big tanks on (reducing top speed a bit or a lot -depending on size):mad:

[Busta]

820 in an F4j, chasing, but not catching a Raven.

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[Roland sizzers]

Mr Draper

Did you really recommend Dead Dog for a knighthood? Whilst he was undeniably brave/mad ........

Now Now Roland don't get involved in personal abuse. However - could start the thread:

'I worked with/for Dead Dog and ...', future Sqn Boss I believe?

Helpppppp!:confused:

[ORAC]

Behind every great man......

What is Jane doing these days?

[Get me some traffic]

I was an ATCO at EGQL in the mid 70s. 23sqn Lightnings, 43 Sqn F4s & 892 NAS F4s.
A Lightning jock once told me that the F1A in reheat at sea level had 8 mins endurance! No one in their right mind would use reheat for that length of time low level but they woulg go an awful long way if they did!
I well remember the Prest & Sample laugh in on 43Sqn. Wonder what happened to Bob? Sadly Bill Sample stoofed a Jetstream in at Prestwick in the 80s and is no longer with us.
I have close contact (as a civil ATCO) with the F3 but it doesn't have the charisma of the Lightning or F4.
Misty eyed ATCO!!

[blaireau]

GMST, check yr PM.
I was overtaken by an F4K off Leuchars who claimed 830kts later in the crewroom. By which I mean at the time of overtake, not in the crewroom. It certainly rattled my machine around at the time.

[BEagle]

At what height?

Went close past a Victor once at Mach 'rather more than I'd anticipated' from a FGR2. Not at low level though - and the crew thought it was pretty good!