FTOs and general questions about flight training...we need feedback please.

[sgarvey]

Hey all,

I know these questions have been asked so many times but im going to ask them again for myself and for any other people going into training.

I'm looking for feedback from people who have completed training or know people who have and preferably who are employed by the airlines now.

Firstly i want to know what you think about modular vs. integrated? I know most will say it all depends on personal preference but is that true or do the airlines prefer one over the other.

People are constantly saying that a lisence is a lisence and it doesnt matter where you get it, i know for a fact that that is not true so from that alone it shows that there seems to be a lot of misled people here giving false info (no offence to anyone).

Most of us all want to fly the big airlines here someday soon so thats telling me that the best places to ask our questions are the airlines themselves. I'm not sure if anyone here can speak for the airlines but if you can please do.

Where do the airlines prefer you to train? Theres so much giving out about OAT for example here but do the airlines tend to recruit more from there or not? If that is the case then we shouldnt be putting it down constantly and giving out about it, we should be training there. I'm just using that as an example because thats the main way they advertise their courses.

In summary, where do the airlines want you to study? what type of course do they want you to do? Would they prefer you to do your training all at the one place or at the best places for each part of your training? what other things do they want in a pilot?

Thanks and I'm sure your replys wont just help me but will help a lot of other wannabe pilots out there also.

Stephen

[DownwindToRoll]

The report below maybe of interest, the results are being discussed in many other threads at the moment.

Best of luck.

GAPAN Report (http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm)

DTR

[FlyingForFun]

People are constantly saying that a lisence is a lisence and it doesnt matter where you get it, i know for a fact that that is not true You know that for a fact, do you? How exactly do you know that? And if you know it already, then why do you need to ask the forum?

I can't deny that you may know "facts" which others on here don't. But unless you can back them up with evidence, I'm afraid I haven't got much time for them.

FFF
----------

[flystudent]

The Modular V's Integrated

I spent a lot of time looking into this recently, I am currently studying as an integrated student at one of the UK FTO's and I wanted the answer from the horses mouth. So I called one of the very large airlines who used to sponor students and spoke to them, I spoke with the head of recruitment and this was his response as I recall it.

"Integrated students is a route which has worked for us for many many years for low hour pilots, it has worked and not something I can see us changing", he went on to talk a little about the mod v's integrated as I probed him for info, but the above was the basic outcome of my conversation. He did also say don't get me wrong we take modular also but we generally look at integrated first. so.. I went integrated

Regards

FYI Downwind to roll, BA didnt take part in that GAPAN survey.

[witchdoctor]

A licence is a licence - TRUE

Airlines only recruit pilots with licences - TRUE

A pratt is a pratt - TRUE

Airlines do not like to recruit pratts - TRUE

A pratt with a licence is less likely to be employed by an airline regardless of his/her background - TRUE

Most pratts are unaware of this harsh reality - TRUE

Most pratts are convinced that being a pratt is no barrier to employment - TRUE

[sgarvey]

FFF

Common sense would tell you that any type of education or training course would vary in quality across the board. I know for a fact that if i was to do my training at home in Ireland i would have a less likely chance of getting recruited than if i was to do it somewhere in england even though i would have all the lisences i need. Ive talked to a lot of people in the know about that including full time pilots and a recruitment officer in aer lingus, so there are my facts backed up. I'm just trying to do my research because at the end of the day I want the best, I want to do a flying course that will get me a job asap as im sure everyone else wants.

Stephen

[silverknapper]

I feel your argument falls down stephen and that your attitude means you aren't prepared to listen to those who beg to differ from you.
If airlines prefer integrated, where did the bulk of todays jet pilots come from - very few from integrated.
A licence is a licence. There are as many unemployd integrated guys from oxford as modular guys from timbuktu air.
There are people here very knowledgable on flight training, FFF being one of them. Do you think we would be doing it our own ways if we thought we wouldn't get a job?
I feel that you want us to steer you to an nice integrated, everything put down to you course at a big school, eg oxford or jerez. If thats where you want to go then go but don't try to get us to convince you thats best.
All your questions have been answered ad infinitum here. Do a serach then post here what you think the concensus is.

[flystudent]

It's all very much a personal choice, if you do your reseach and it says modular, then go for it, and vice versa if it says integrated, either way it's ones own descision based on how much research you do. The int v's mod is an old long drawn out debate which isnt worth going into.

Personally for me I have typed above what tilted the scales for me, but everyones situations are different. It has to be ones own choice not someone elses whilst remembering the posts on here are not always unbiased.

Good luck all :cool:

[Send Clowns]

flystudent/sgarvey

[Note - I work for a modular FTO (with a direct Ryanair from Dublin ;) ), but also took this decision 4 years ago, and have been happy with it since]

This distinction is false: it is about the structure course and how the licence was achieved, not the standard of instruction or of the pilot or the privileges of the licence. Both are now examined by the CAA. The integrated/modular divide died in January 2000 with CAA control of flight crew licencing regulations.

I don't know which airline you spoke to flystudent, but I suspect he was talking about his own, sponsored students not direct-entry FOs. It has been very convenient for the airlines to send their students through an integrated course, but now even that may be changing. Some airlines have now started to look at a full-time, modular course even for their sponsorship to reduce costs.

It used to be that integrated was prefered, under the CAA scheme, as the only approved course. This was superseded nearly 4 years ago when JARs came in. Now all courses are approved. Even BA and BA Citiexpress have taken on low-hour modular students (the forms ask about approved/non-approved, not integrated/modular). Certainly organisations like Channel Express, FlyBe, EasyJet, Ryanair and many of the airlines you are far more likely to get a job with treat all licences equally.

In fact a graduate from a straight-through modular course is likely to gain preference over an integrated graduate for many jobs, all else being equal and assuming no further experience. The reason is simple - more hours. Minimum integrated is 160, minimum modular is, realistically, 230. Two equal candidates, the one with more hoursgets to the top (I have even heard fairly reliable reports of people struggling on the IR so needing more training getting preference due to increased multi-engine time!). Factor in the nice courses that can be bought with the £12000 or so you could save, there is no automatic reason to go integrated even if the big boys (frankly not your most likely first employer, though some of the schools may lead you to think so) did prefer it.

For now, as far as I am aware, there is not even selection between JAA states, sgarvey. Irish training will probably always be reasonable: the warning I would give is against training in countries becoming known for corruption in the training schemes. The pilots you talk to may well know nothing about the new system, most who trained before it came in are not aware it has changed so much. Aer Lingus should not be your aim for a first job, or you are 99% certain of disappointment.

[flystudent]

Yeah fair enough,I am just relaying what I was told, I agree things have changed of late, however if the whole thing is cyclical we just have to wait and see. Either way I took the option that was "in effect" advised to me by someone who has been recruiting a long time. As you say inf it's pure hours rated then a mod may be better, however we have to remember some companies dont like to change their ways. (old school, most schools)

The context of what he said was to do with the current climate, "low hour students we prefer integrated, dont ge tme wrong we look at modular too" Direct entry related.

Flystudent

[strafer]

Either way I took the option that was "in effect" advised to me by someone who has been recruiting a long time.
Flystudent - I suggest next time you're lucky enough to speak to someone in charge of recruiting, you ask the right questions. Do you really think that faced with 2 candidates of equal experience the only factor will be which was integrated and which was modular? If indeed, it's a factor at all.

I can think of 8 other factors off the top of my head. Information which I have gleaned after a year of sorting the wheat from the chaff on Pprune and other sites, reading the worthwhile literature and talking to people involved in the industry. If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.

I can tell that there are other posters on this forum who've come to similar conclusions and I can gurantee they will get jobs before the others who simply haven't done their research.

Personally, I'm looking forward to my own moment of Schadenfreude.

[paco]

It is a fact that, given 2 students of apparently equal status, that the method of training, or at least the school, will be a deciding factor in who gets hired - years ago, the airlines decided that the self-improvers were not producing the quality of staff required, and it was decided that, eventually, full courses would be required. JAR may have smoothed things out a bit, but the real world is still like that, and schools will still take short cuts (employers know who they are). Certain American schools some time ago got a really bad name for this, and nobody would hire their graduates.

Of course, in theory, a licence is a licence, but have you ever known an interview panel to stick to the basic exam questions? The requirement for hours is more likely an insurance thing.

You need as much knowledge as you can get, and of the best quality you can get.

sgarvey is quite right to ask such questions.

Phil

[Send Clowns]

I agree, Paco, that given two equal candidates the course of training may be used to separate them. What I still would say is that the decision will not (generally) be between integrated and modular, certainly not for the most likely employers of recent graduates. The training can now be, to all intents, the same except for the structore of the course. You can do all your flying at a modular school under approved courses.

The decision may relate to the perceived quality of training offered in the country you have flown in, though that is probably not yet clear. It may eventually rate to individual schools as more graduates get into the system under JARs. However it is very hard for you to know which schools until you are in employment, certainly making your choice there is no-one easily able to give you a broad, impartial perspective.

However, given the same expenditure the candidates are not equal. The modular graduate, after a similar amount of time and less money can have more hours, after a little more time but the same money could have additional multi-engine time, or a JOC, or an instructor rating ...

[flystudent]

>>Strafer

Information which I have gleaned after a year of sorting the wheat from the chaff on Pprune and other sites, reading the worthwhile literature and talking to people involved in the industry. If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you.

Well if you chose not to share your information gathered that's up to you.

If you read the originating subject of this thread you will see that I have clearly relayed some of the information which was passed to me from someone I consider to be a lot more knowledgable than me on the subject., years of recruitment of pilots et al.

Like you I did as much research as I could, but then there comes a point when you really have to get it from the horses mouth rather than forums, FTO's etc etc.
I'm not knocking modular, never have, never will - I'm purely, relaying the information which was given to me regarding the subject of integrated v's Modular. (you know Forum - sharing of information)
As for 8 other questions, if you really think I got such an opportune moment to speak with this chap, asked him what do you think of int v's mod then walked out the door ho hum, good luck, lol !!

I hope you make it on your quest, but could I recommend you are a little bit more tactful if you ever have to debate as part of a selection process becasue you agressive nature does not come across well, tied in with the "I'm not sharing info with you". I think OATS do team building/CRM weekend exercises perhaps take a look.

Regards
Flystudent

[cfb]

As this discussion rumbles on, it may be worth remembering that before you can be selected by an Airline, you first need to be called for an interview.

The stronger your CV, the more likely that you will asked to come in and get the chance to demonstrate your sim skills and interview technique.

> total hours
> total P1 hours
> total multi engine hours
> ATPL theoretical pass marks
> IR 1st time or 1st Series pass
> additional spoken languages (Spanish / French / German)
> good secondary eduacation and maybe a degree
> additional marks for evidence of leadership / team skills (outward bound training, sports etc).

Your CV has to be better than the next guy (or girl), as well as simply having the licence.

[strafer]

Flystudent - don't patronise me, especially when you're not even close. Should we ever do a 'team-building/CRM' course together, you'll think I'm the nicest bloke there, and you'd be wrong.

Regarding not sharing info, my (fairly obvious) point was that all the info you need is already out there, all you need is half a brain to find it. Here's one big clue though - look for 'GAPAN' earlier in the very thread. See what airlines want (admitedly in an ideal world) and see what they say about mod v integrated.

As for the rest, I refer you to Witchdoctor's post.

No reply necessary.

[silverknapper]

this is boring me now

[flystudent]

Strafer

GAPAN read it inside out, did you know several of the largest airlines in the UK and world didnt even take part in it ? do you know which airlines did ? for example did you know BA didnt take part in it along with several other large carriers. This was one of the main reasons I considered Modular after reading the GAPAN survey, but then I found out a bit more e.g. which airlines took part in it.

I take it from your repliess you are/were/thinking of being a modular student. and you dont like the info I have presented ?

The Gapan was one of the other things discussed with said person, just becasue you dont like what his response was there is aboslutely no need to get the 'ump. Dont shoot the messenger n all that. Anyway enough of this the thread asked for info I provided some of what I know you dont like it/or dont find it useful, others may, so lets agree to disagree your contacts say it makes no difference mine say it does, lets hope you work for your contacts and I'll hopefully work for mine :ok:

All the best for your search in employment
Flystudent

[silverknapper]

And you think BA's opinion on modular vs integrated really matters? I don't believe for a moment it does. The chances of BA offering anyone their first job are so remote it doesn't bear consideration.
however we have to remember some companies dont like to change their ways. (old school, most schools)

What do you base this gem on exactly? It sounds to me like you have your own reasons for choosing your route. So stick with them and give it a rest.

[flystudent]

zzzzzzzzz....

silverknapper, if you read my last thread you will I see I have done so already. As for what my thoughts are on BA yes, to me their opinion does matter. my GEM of info as you refer to is based on conversations with various ailines in the last month, and as for my own route, yes this is exactly what I said in an earlier thread and as before I was only passing on info passed to me
Have a nice day.