A question for Barton-based pilots

[knobbygb]

Well, more specifically a question about huge circuits over built-up areas really.

Flew into Barton for the first time last week - been many times in the car as it's my 'local' field, I suppose - but this was my first trip by air. The circuit seemed quite busy - at least 3 fixed wing, two helicopters and a couple of non-radio microlights too. 27 right-hand was in use.

An overhead join put me at circuit height (only 800ft) behind a C150 who was doing what seemed a cross-country circuit and we ended up on approximatley a 2-mile final, still at 800ft over a completley built up area, and flying at a very slow speed with full flaps to avoid catching the Cessna. The only option for a forced landing would have been to ditch in the ship-canal under a couple of bridges. I'm sure that at the point we turned final, we were outside the ATZ and only a couple of hundred yards from the Manchester CTR boundary.

At the time I just got on with it and landed, but it's been bugging me ever since. I REALLY wasn't happy with the situation and should probably have broken off the approach.

I don't mean to have a go at the a/c doing the large circuit, by the way - it was obviously a low-hours student solo (I saw him being met by his instructor later) - we've all been there and it's been discussed at length before. I really wanted to turn in front of him, but I'd been warned by the AFIS operator about the non-radio traffic and wasn't comfortable with doing that either.

I suppose I have two specific questions:

1) Is this the normal situation at Barton or was I just unlucky to end up on such a large circuit? Pooleys says that the helecopter circuit is inside the fixed wing at 500ft but what about the microlights - where should I have been looking?

2) In general, what is the protocol for 'cutting in front' of another aircraft in the circuit? I have no experience of AFIS and wastn't sure what to ask for. I do it at my home field (A/G) but usually know the other pilot and use some rather non-standard RT in the process :p I'f I'd flown my own standard circuit (i.e. always within gliding distance if possible) I'm sure I'd have been on the ground and clear of the active before the other guy even turned base.

I'm not picking on Barton particularly here, by the way (I'm sure this situation happens at hundreds of other fields). I thoroughly enjoyed my visit when I finally got there and think it would make a great fly-in venue. I even wore my yellow vest for the first time :(

Thanks for your help and opinions...

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Awful, isn't it? I really don't know why, but a lot of Barton pilots (not just students) fly these X-country circuits. If it's safe, turn well inside them.

I've refuelled, cleaned the aeroplane and put it away, had a brew in the clubhouse, and been about to drive home before some of them eventually come whizzing over the fence, hot and high, to a perfect 3-pointer (in a trike!!), then screech to halt near the far numbers by standing on the brakes.

Makes ya weep.....


SSD

PS

Richard Bach, in his wonderful book 'A Gift Of Wings', recommends an effective instructional technique for x-country circuit flyers - chop the power on them. As they see the houses getting bigger (and at 800 feet, they were already quite big) and the field receding out of sight as they descend, they might realise that had they flown a sensible cicuit, they could have put it onto the field instead of into Joe Soap's house roof.

[Squadgy]

Hi,

As you've said Barton is a very busy airfield in terms of aircraft movements, also it has a large number of student pilots who may fly slightly larger circuits then the more experienced pilot.

The microlight circuit is the same as the fixed wing, 800ft AGL, you will find that a lot of microlights will fly a fairly close in base leg to short final however.

Rotary traffic is at 500ft AGL inside the fixed wing cct and will operate to remain clear of the active (except when crossing with clearance from the FISO).

The FISO should advise you of the fixed wing traffic ahead in the cct as you get downwind,(as you got on the microlight), it's then up to you to fit in accordingly - rather than flying further downwind how about an orbit, (if there was no one else behind), or alternatively climbing back to the overhead and repositioning so you have a bigger gap ahead - advising your intentions on the R/T?

What I have seen a lot of is traffic, say a P28R, following a, say C150. downwind, then base, then final, closing the gap all the time - they then have to go around and seem suprised that the slower aircraft is still on the runway when they get there.
Another issue can be an aircraft on base who thinks they can get in ahead of the aircarft on longer final, who then has to go around because the gap has reduced......

As you say not just EGCB issues, I'm sure most GA airfields have similar issues..

[flyingfemme]

They do seem to teach bigger circuits this side of the pond.....I was taught to fly them so that an engine failure at any point would still let me make the runway.

At Gloucester they routinely fly finals over the whole of Cheltenham - I prefer to turn in at the "doughnut" on the edge of town.

Must confess that some of them fly such huge circuits I lose sight of the traffic and sometimes turn in before them........ATC don't have a problem with this is you can pull it off (and sometimes even request it).

[bingoboy]

Students and low experience pilots flying Xcountry circuits must happen because their instructors taught them. Do instructors feel this makes sense and is it part of their training/approval ?

Re faster traffic catching slower ones up in the circuit - I am always amazed when pilots of say an Arrow can't slow up to sub 100 on downwind when they can see traffic ahead. Perhaps part of the transition training onto faster a/c should be flexible circuit speed management.

I know before anyone says it that by the time finals comes there are a/c with a higher approach speed that even vne of a microlight ahead but here it is probably down to the micro to keep its speed up on finals.

Never will be an easy answer but I am sure that wise and experienced instruction etc could overcome many problems.

[54.98N]

Bit off topic, but I flew into Barton for the first time this afternoon. Lovely place, and loads of activity.

I see what they mean about the bumps, good way of getting airborne early :p

Manchester looks quite nice in the Sunshine ;)

It's nice to see an AFISO (sp??) that can let traffic depart whilst landing traffic is on less than a 6 mile final!

[vintage ATCO]

It's nice to see an AFISO (sp??) that can let traffic depart whilst landing traffic is on less than a 6 mile final!

It's just FISO these days, and it isn't his choice. Once at the hold it's your decision whether to go or not.

VA

[Squadgy]

Actually, it's once you're past the hold - the FISO can hold you at the hold. Even then the CAA state that aircarft cannot depart without the permissive phrase 'Take off at your discretion' being issued by the FISO - see previous threads.

[knobbygb]

Yes 54.98N - forgot to mention the bumps! 4-up in a Pa28 we were nowhere near takeoff speed by that point - made the two 11 year old first time passengers squeal a bit! Actually, it was the first time I'd had to do takeoff distance calculations "in anger" and it all worked as planned.

Squadgy, the situation you describe is exactly what happened, only the Cessna was doing a touch and go. He was just airbourne as I came over the fence. FISO issued 'land at your discression' while I was in the flare.

So what I learned about flying from my trip to Barton: Don't allow other aircraft to 'lead you' into what you consider an unsafe situation. If in doubt, break off and begin your approach again. FISO only has control on the ground upto the hold (knew that anyway really but forgot in the heat of the moment) so if you need to do somthing 'non-standard' in the circuit - go ahead but make sure you tell everyone what you're doing.

Another slightly related question: The Broussard, G-BKPU that landed on the M60 back in 1988, was he in a similar situation? I guess landing on the motorway was the absolute last resort if he wasn't within gliding distance? Can't find the AAIB report on this one.

And an unrelated one: The LAC website shows a photo of a Cessna parked outside the Trafford Centre (here (http://www.lancsaeroclub.co.uk/lac/gallery1.asp) half way down the right-hand side of hte page). Does anyone know - was it flown it there, and if so, how was it all arranged and done?). Thanks.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The Broussard didn't intentionally land on the M62. He had a major oil leak from the CSU while in the circuit (for 09, IIRC). With very limited visibility due oil all over the screen he put it into a field. The field wasn't long enough, and the aeroplane went through the far hedge and down the embankment onto the motorway.

It squashed a passing 2CV (unfortunatly, with fatal results for one of the 2CV occupants, also IIRC).

Moral - never, ever consider buying a 2CV.

Re the Trafford Centre Cessna. I beleive it was trucked in - LAC did a similar publicity promotion in central Manchester a few years ago, with a trucked-in Cessna.

SSD

[down&out]

Hmm, if you want a real cross country circuit, try Elstree - due to local noise issues, it can take 10 minutes to go all the way round. "Officially" you actually have to leave the circuit & re-join.

[Squadgy]

54.98N , was that you in the DA40 ? If so I worked you on the way outbound. Nice bit of kit - I did my PPL on the DA20 and always liked the look of the DA40.:D

Cheers

[54.98N]

Squadgy,

Yes it was I in the DA40, not mine unfortunately but a friends, and as you said a nice piece of kit.

Nice little tail wind going back to Teesside made 146kts G/S at 2,400rpm, not bad for 180hp.

Good service, keep it up!

54.98N

PS It should have been at Barton again on Monday

[Squadgy]

Thanks :O

Saw the DA 40 booked in , but I don't do Mondays so didn't see it again, hopefully one of my colleagues will have got a picture - didn't have a camera on Sunday