IFR in Spamcans

[topcat450]

Hi,

Looking out of the window at the drizzle, thoughts turn to IMC, IRs etc and I was wondering how useful they are when it comes to flying in your regular spamcan.

What I mean is, in your Cessna 172 with an IR (or IMC) could you go up in weather like today...or would it typically be a very rough ride?

Througout the British winter there's days of drizzle, low cloudbase etc but what about Icing, in your regular spamcan you can't go up in it so even if you went to the expense of an IMC, would you still find yourself often grounded throughout winter?

Thx in advance

[18greens]

It would depend on the day but I would think a rough ride would be the least of your worries. After all we fly on rough days in VMC.

I know people with single engine aircraft who do fly IFR on IMCs (some alledgedly down to 400' with no approach aids).

I also know people with IRs who won't fly with a 600' cloudbase into an ILS equipped airport.

The things that would bother me is only one power supply, only one suction pump. If it all goes where do you go?

Some would say why would you want to fly on a day when you can't see the ground.

The only ones that seem to do it are the ones who need to . Ie its your job or you need to get to a business meeting.

I often wish I could practice it more so that when I need to I can but it always seems so much fuss to do it.

[CSX001]

IMHO, the biggest issue here is knowledge. The average IMC rating holder knows not a lot about weather, because they are not taught, and the syllabus contains precious little.

As a result, they can fly passable ILS approaches for a while, but have no idea how to use the skill, what to do enroute, or in what weather it is sensible to fly.

Most GA singles are not great IFR machines. The avionics are too poor and the system are not particularly reliable. The new generation of aircraft like Cirruses seem like a good bet, but in a PA28... I don't think so.

When you come to talking about the proper IFR system with its SIDs, STARs and airways, an underpowered SEL is not going to cut the mustard. The base of the airways are too high, and during the winter months, the lowest levels available would all be at or around the freezing layer.

If you can't afford to do it in a proper aeroplane, it is probably safer all round to save IFR for the summer when you can use it to simplify your navigating around Europe.

My 2c worth

Charlie.

[Julian]

As Charlie says you have to be sure your spamcan can meet the minimum requirements required under IFR, such as climb rates, before you even think about it.

In my experience very few school aircraft have the required decent kit in them for IFR flight and you are prob better joining a group that know what they want and have configured their aircraft accordingly.

If you do find a school aircraft that has all the bits n bobs then fly it a few times VFR and get to know it before you take it into IMC. I fly SEL IMC but I am picky about which aircraft I take as some have kit on their last legs and I dont want it failing at the crucial moment!!!

[witchdoctor]

I have to agree with the comments above. Although my IR was completed in spamcans and then twin spamcans, I have yet to see another regular spamcan as well kitted out as the commercial training a/c. The new models may well be the exception.

Even then, I would be wary of taking a single without any de-ice or anti-ice facilities up in IMC where an icing risk is present. At least with the twins, as well as these facilities you have two donks which hopefully keep all the essential kit running. If all that fails, then it really isn't your day.

The IMC rating I've always considered more of a sensible precaution against being caught out in IMC allowing a (hopefully) safe return to a landing field, rather than an out and out excuse to actively seek out IMC and all it's attendant risks.

[IO540]

The IMC rating I've always considered more of a sensible precaution against being caught out in IMC allowing a (hopefully) safe return to a landing field, rather than an out and out excuse to actively seek out IMC and all it's attendant risks.

I strongly disagree if the above is said without a lot of qualification.

The problem is the decrepit aircraft with decrepit avionics that are available to most UK self fly hire pilots, and the lack of currency of most self fly hire pilots, whether PPL or PPL+IMCR.

If one is taught in the IMC Rating to properly do the stuff for which it gives you privileges (basically nearly everything of relevance outside Class A) then subject to currency and a suitable aircraft you can do all those things no less safely than someone with a gold plated ATPL with the same currency and in the same plane. Whether this can be done in the min 15 hrs is another matter, and I know many of the instructors who teach the IMCR cannot do it properly anyway (they never really fly anywhere themselves).

Finally, one can get about the UK in IMC (IFR) adequately without going into the airways. This isn't the case in Europe, where the full IR is needed anything the weather is less than pretty good.

Icing will ultimately stop you doing things but then whatever money one spends on a plane, there will always be things one can't do in it.

It is nearly true that one needs to own (or have good access to) a decent plane and have the money to stay current, but that isn't at all the same thing as knocking the IMC Rating. Every pilot who wants to fly anywhere seriously ought to do it (even just to allow him to fly in marginal conditions en-route) and people are short changed when they are told that their £7000 PPL will enable them to fly usefully.

Just my view :O

[Penguina]

WRT engine failures:

This week's Flight International has an interesting commentary on the stringent equipment requirements the JAA are setting at the moment prior to an amendment allowing SE turboprops to be allowed to operate commercially at night or in IMC in the near future (as is likely).

Includes radio altimeter (preferably showing analogue closure rate), battery that can last for ages even when powering strong landing lights, area navigation display with aerodromes and possible forced landing sites programmed in, two independent engine control systems... in addition to full IFR kit mentioned above.

Sure commercial safety requirements have to be stricter, but it makes you think, if that's the minimum for air taxis.

[englishal]

The thing that gets me flying frontal IFR is meeting an Embedded CB in the clag. I had a flight a few months ago, and although the weather was pretty crap it was perfectly flyable, not too rough. However as we started bursting in and out of the clouds we could see these big CB's around, and we ended up back in the cloud knowing that there was embedded thunderstorms in there, listening to people"deviating for weather". We didn't meet one luckily, though it did start getting very dark at one point (so we aimed for the light bit :D). It is a nice feeling when you burst out of the back of the front into sunshine....Regarding Icing, if there is a possibility of icing, you don't go unless your aircraft is equipped.

Ideally I would like a weather radar and de-icing equipment, and preferbly a spare engine :D, but there is nothing stopping safe SE IFR in a suitably equipped aircraft. It is important to have a plan in case the engine quits though, if I am near water and the minimums are low, I'll head for that using moving map GPS if nescessary.

The things which would stop me are known thunderstorms and icing level too low (which in the winter in the UK it invariably is), then it depends on arrival airport weather.

Cheers
EA:D

[FlyingForFun]

I think englishal has pretty much summed up my feelings on minimum conditions for the flight. No IMC flight if there's any chance of icing. No IMC flight if there's any chance of thunderstorms. And no flight if the forecast weather at the destination is close to my own limits (which will depend on how current I am at instrument flying, but are generally much higher than the IMC recommendations because I don't fly IMC very often).

As for the equipment, I'm very lucky to be able to hire from a club which has two nearly brand new Cessna 172. Both are as fully equipped for IFR flight as a C172 can be. I did my IMC Rating training mostly in one of these, and it was fantastic. I didn't realise just how good it was until one lesson when the Cessna wasn't available, and I had to take a much older PA28. Trying to pick up a QDM to an NDB when the needle jumps 10 degrees at a time is not fun. :eek:

FFF
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[Keef]

Yes, spot on. The IMCR is as good as the pilot holding it. For some, it's their "get out of cloud free" card, and that should be their personal limit. For others, it's a serious qualification allowing them to fly IFR in the UK in Class D and below.

I fly a fairly old PA28 (Arrow III) which is fully airways equipped and with a GNS430, and it's a joy to fly IFR. I just don't go IFR if the freezing level is low and the clouds ditto, and I certainly don't go if there are embedded CBs.

That said, there are a lot of days a year when we blast off happily into IMC in it. Once I have access to an N-reg Arrow (hopefully next year), I'll be able to do that across Europe - and I'm looking forward to that!

[Julian]

FFF highlights the point about knowing an aircraft. It may look ok but imagine only discovering the knackered instruments when you need them!!!

It may be worth pointing out to keep an eye on an aircraft you use a lot. I used to rent a lovley Archer III with full IFR kit on board. It was brand new when I first rented it and now its only about 3 years old - unfortunately if you flew it you would think it was 30 yrs old!!! The FBO has flown it to death whilst not been exactly proactive with the maintanance!! Watched a mate of mine pull it out last time, start it up and then push it back again muttering " No way Im flying that F***ing thing!".

[IO540]

This is a big issue when looking at a syndicate, and you have your IMC R and want to fly IFR. There need to be sufficient members there who want the same, otherwise there tend to be disputes over the maintenance of "non-VFR" items; this covers perhaps most of the panel :O I've seen quite a few people trying to offload their shares in such groups.

THAT is the real problem with flying IFR; it isn't the IMC Rating itself; it is all the other stuff.... You'd have the same issues if you had a full IR. In fact the people I referred to above had mostly a CPL/IR.... but no half-decent plane!

On the subject header (spamcans) I used to fly a really nice PA28-181 and if I wanted a "cheap" (no such thing) IFR plane I would have had to spend about £50k on kit for it. In practice, very few people are going to do that (gold plated taps in a council house etc). An AP (1-axis at least) is essential. A decent large GPS (e.g. a KMD150, not expensive!) likewise. Slaved instruments are great; they should not be necessary but in practice an unslaved DI drifts around too much...

[topcat450]

Flicking through LASORS,

I've noticed that your exempt from 3hrs instruction (towards you IMC) if you hold a night rating but no exemption if you hold a night qualification.

I thought night qualifaction was just the JAA term for the night rating - obviously not.

darn...I thought I could save 3 hrs then - but being post-JAA means I wont.:(

[RodgerF]

TC

The reason being that there was 3 hours instrument instruction post PPL required before the old night rating would be issued.