Bae Flight Training for sale.

[jocko0102]

Bae are looking to sell the school at Jerez first and then the one in Aus.
It is to be sold as a going concern and i have been told they will be very selective regarding who they sell to.
For those who have signed a contract the price will not increase but for anyone else watch this space.
I have been told it is because it does not fit into what is basically a global military sales company.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This is indeed the case - I can confirm.

Civil pilot training is deemed by BAE to no longer be a logical part of its activities as a global defence supplier.

They have therefore taken the decision to dispose of its civil flight training facilities at Jerez and in Australia.

Having spoken to a BAE spokesman a few minutes ago he confirms that the business is to be sold as a going concern and stated "we are aware of our obligations to students in that regard". Third parties have already been sought to purchase the business.

Therefore there is no need for current students, or potential customers thinking of going to Jerez, to panic in any way.

In my view the sale will take some time to come about anyway. When it does it might well be a good thing as new management come in with fresh funding to improve and develop the school yet further. It is after all an excellent resource as it stands with fundamentally good resources.

Doubtless there will be some movement in staff and this will cause some upheavel.

I hope that the change of ownership brings nothing but good things to all the staff in Jerez who made the considerable commitment to moving there from Prestwick 4 years ago.

Now. Time for the rumours as to who is buying them to begin... starter for 10 with - say - McAlpine and CABAIR in a 50/50 partnership that sees Cranfield wound down and all the CTC cadet IR's conducted out of Jerez. :p

Cheers

WWW

[mach252]

As a potential student at the facility, I do have my reservations, it would be good to hear other students opinions about the sale, either current or prospective. Is this really going to benefit the students or the accountants? :hmm: Cheers!

[Ally Minium]

mach252 - rest assured that BAE will guarantee your money and training - the parent company is big enough to ensure that (and the same promise was made during the move from Prestwick, I understand).

[stevesmyname]

I hear that the same is true of Oxford - for sale, lock, stock and barrel :eek:

[oxford blue]

Stevesmyname - please don't put out rumours which have no foundation in fact. It is a very irresponsible thing to do, and potentially damaging to a highly reputable company.

In a recent question on just this point on Oxford's own website, the @SK OXFORD forums, OAT's Managing Director made the following reply:

"Thank you very much for asking the question directly rather than relying on the rumour network.

I can assure you categorically that Oxford Aviation Training is neither in financial difficulty nor about to go into liquidation.

Although you don't state whether you are undergoing either FAA or JAA training, I am sure you will be aware of the investments that we are making within our training centres towards the future development of our courses and overall the benefit of our customers.

I do wish that your 'trustworthy' source (sic!) would not make this sort of comment; albeit I am sure no damage was intended.

If you would like to contact me directly, please contact me at the Oxford centre and I will be pleased to answer any further questions that you may have.

Anthony Petteford
Managing Director
Oxford Aviation Training"

Not too much room for doubt there.

[stevesmyname]

Oxford Blue

Yep, it’s fair to say that unfounded rumours can be damaging. This is not an unfounded rumour though, and nobody, other than on your own forum and you on here, mentioned anything about financial difficulty or liquidation.

The fact is that OATS is for sale, and I think that people who are about to buy courses from OATS or take jobs with OATS should know that fact.

Not much room for doubt there either.

Steve

[fat and retarded]

stevesmyname
OATS for sale? As an employee here I think you are talking out of your rear end and until you can actually back up that statement with hard evidence you really should keep your opinions to yourself

fat and retarded

[oxford blue]

Steve,

If this is a fact (your capitals) - produce some evidence.

I simply don't believe you.

[Send Clowns]

Oxford Blue

I don't think anyone suggested that OATS is in financial difficulty, just that it was for sale. F & R seems to doubt that, and such rumours have been around for nearly two years now so I agree something more than insistence would be required to believe them.

I would have to say that sale of schools could be good for the industry, and may well be good for the students. I would certainly not be automatically concerned. Seems an unwise time to sell though. Potentially good buy for the right investor, if the industry behaves as usual with a steady rise after recent difficulties.

[BillieBob]

Now there's an interesting, if familiar ploy. To divert attention from a statement that you do not wish to confront, you attack as untrue an allegation that has never been made along with the poor soul who never made it! I wonder where oxford blue could possibly have learned that from?

[stevesmyname]

Oxford Blue and Fat & Retarded you seem to have forgotten what this bulletin board is called. This is a rumour – I happen to know that it is true and I do not get involved in speculation, but the only way I can prove it to be true is to ask you to wait. I’m sure that you will find out over the next few months.

I am sorry that you feel affronted to learn this news here rather than from your employer, or the company’s owners, but I’m not sure that it is realistic for them to discuss their plans with you in advance. And just because I am, by chance, better informed about this that you are is no reason to attack me.

However, I forgive you, as it is potentially worrying to hear that your employer is about to change hands – could be for the better though!

If you want confirmation, you could always ask that MD who posted on your internal forum, unless he hasn’t been told either…

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think its fair to say that the owners of OATS have been *rumoured* to be looking to sell the business on. These kinds of rumours are often rife within the flight training world.

At least now we *know* that this is indeed the case for BAEs ownership of Jerez.

As I heard it recently from a reliable source: When Mr Big from Bombs & Bullets PLC asked Mr Big from British Belts & Asbestos PLC if they wanted a school in Spain they actually said we were going to ask you if you wanted a school in England...

What Joe Wannabe is supposed to make of all this talk is really the issue here.

I guess he just has to pay his money and takes his choice. I can't see that either the facts or the rumours make a great deal of difference to his decision as his money is going to be pretty safe with either of these two training behmouths (check spelling - Ed). The reasons for choosing either school remain as compelling as they ever were - though I suspect some close questioning would be in order when on the 'phone to Spain.

Now. If I could just win that lottery and buy both of them then dominate the market... ;)

Cheers

WWW

[weette]

I read yesterday a post relating to this fto and somehow was surprised about some of the information that appeared on it.
Today that post is not here anymore so I must suppose that obscure forces run this forum, and big brother was unhappy with what was exposed. Is that the sort of plural information that is send to the community or is the information filtered as some "moderators" wish. Moderators please don´t corrupt what has been a great aviation forum.
Wishing the best for you all I certainly know that the training industry is suffering, we are back to the early 90´s scenario but life goes on and Bae Systems seems to still defend the bussiness as I read in Flight International for the forseeable future.

[Regis Potter]

stevesmyname

You don't work in Texas by any chance ? :ok:

[Touch'n'oops]

Fear not you ill bred oiks, for i shall see to it that daddy buys the school, and puts Poels in charge. Then we can all quaff champers and play the soggy biscuit game all day..

hurrah!

Glad to see that the computers here at Jerez still don't log people out properly!!!!:hmm:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

One does have to wonder what happens if nobody wants to buy it.

Also if a non British company does buy it will British Wannabes - the great majority of cusom - still want to go there. Also will the UK CAA remain the authority under which the school operates...

If the school is owned by a German company, and trains under the Spanish CAA with Spanish IR examiners, then its hard to see hundreds of Brit Wannabes signing up to go there.

Especially as its currently not a particularly cheap course if you are converting Pounds to Euros.

Without the steady stream of Brit customers - who are attracted by the school being British - and having a long high quality reputation from the Prestwick days, then surely the business case starts to look shaky to any potential buyer.

Nothing to spend time worrying about yet but - still - questions to be answered. Time will tell I guess.

WWW

[the goon]

I`ve heard that an US based flight training organisation has expressed an interest in purchasing the BAE owned flight school at Jerez and also the accomodation block located at Prestwick which was previously used by BAE when they operated there. Does anybody know if there is any truth in this???????:ooh:

[no sponsor]

That would depend on where you heard your facts from!

[ecj]

Mentioning Jerez and Adamton House [the accomodation block] in the same breath might indicate linkage.

Just what that might be - only time will tell.

[scroggs]

weette despite your theories of conspiratorial mods controlling the flow of information, whether for commercial or professional advantage or whatever, I'm afraid you're wrong! If we remove a thread, it is placed in a secure area of the site so that whatever is offensive, actionable or questionable about the thread can be studied by the senior mods and, if necessary, produced as evidence at an appropriate time and in an appropriate place. There is no such thread about BAe (or any other fto) currently residing in our secure area, so I can only assume that the originator of the thread deleted it of his own accord and for his own reasons.

As for the sale of Jerez, I'm afraid that BAe's only motivation will be to get the best price it can as quickly as it can. While it will be keen to make sure that its own reputation isn't sullied by any shoddy dealings during the sale, and it will do a reasonable amount to ensure that the buyer is a company of good standing, which will look after the interests of those students who have contracted with BAe, I doubt that its concern for the students who come thereafter will amount to much. This is purely a commercial imperative, not a charity decision. Let us hope that the buyer is as keen to get the best out of the place as you guys are.

Scroggs

[BritishGuy]

I heard that Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway (Netjets and Flightsafety) have heard of the above news. Well, I think it'd be a good move for them-watch the stock price on the Berkshire Hathaway company.

[Frijolero]

Scroggs, good points!

WWW, also good questions!

What would happen if BAE fails to sell? Having done some research, it seems fairly likely that it will close. But what will this do for the poor students who are still there waiting to complete their course? What will happen to the dwindering motivation of BAE staff and instructors faced with imminent job loss? Certainly IT WILL NOT do anything positive towards quality of training.

Also what about the students that complete their training with BAE? BAE partly sells the course on graduates being in employment within 6 months with the help of BAE management, and their airline contacts. Are these students going to be left to fend for themselves in the current market. After all I agree with WWW in another of his recent posts, whereby he explains that airlines prefer graduates from the approved course to the modular course, simply because it is easy for airlines to get in touch with the approved school for a training reference.But what happens when their is no-one at BAE to answer the phones?

Other interesting RUMOURS are that the CAA is becoming more reluctant to renew FTO approval to a non UK residing FTOs. After all under JAR, BAE should really operate under their Spanish DGAC approval (which they currently have). However, the Spanish approval is not used soley because BAE have no Spanish DGAC approved examiners on site. Therefore BAE continue to use expensive CAA examiners from the UK.

With regard to the sale of BAE, personally I have doubts. BAE is a global company, and if they cannot make a profit in over 6 years in delivering flight training, nor financially afford to keep the Civil Flight Training schools, then who can? Particularly in Jerez, where I am told a vast number of flying days are lost to excessively high temperatures in the summer, the levante SE crosswind, ATC restrictions and generally poor management.

Anyone out there know any interested parties in purchasing BAE?

In the mean time, you can still join the BAE Systems Rowing Team. Vacancies for 6 (management) blokes steering, and 1 (instructor) bloke rowing..............Yes it does go around in circles all day!


:sad:

[Send Clowns]

But what will this do for the poor students who are still there waiting to complete their course? What will happen to the dwindering motivation of BAE staff and instructors faced with imminent job loss? This is only an opinion but I assume BAe will be careful not to let any students down. I would expect them to keep operations running to complete all extant course, although (and I speculate here) they may alternatively pay a different provider to complete the training, if the students can be persuaded to agree.

Assuming they continue I would hope that the instructor morale would not be a problem. My closest experience was the closure of SFT, much more precipitous and less orderly than Jerez would be, with the employees losing a lot more. There the priority of the instructors was certainly on the students, and helping as much as possible. Arrangements were made to keep the school open for three weeks with unpaid instructors to complete as many subject courses as possible (I was not directly involved, as my subject was too large to complete and so dropped). It is to be hoped that the focus of all instructors is as close to the requirements of the students as that of my colleagues was.

[scroggs]

I imagine that Jerez is an independent cost centre within the BAe group, and thus will be required by the accountants to stand or fall on its own merits. There is little or no cross fertilization, as there might be if an airline owned the school, that could justify it running at a trading loss. I would not be surprised if the place has run at a loss over the last two years, and that the accountants' limited patience may have run out.

If BAe should decide to close down Jerez, I am sure that they would do it in an orderly fashion and wouldn't leave everyone high and dry. There would, in spite of that, be those who lose out. For example, should a student fail a check within a short time of any pre-announced final closure, you would not expect BAe to keep the place open to support that one student while the student receives remedial instruction and subsequent testing. I would hope that it may be possible for that student to be placed elsewhere - but it may not be.

Obviously, and finally, this is all speculation. We all got very upset when such speculation appeared about other schools a little while back, so let's not get too excited about this. I believe that the whole aviation market is on the upturn, and that the future is likely to be somewhat brighter. Hopefully Jerez will stay in business and go from strength to strength.

Scroggs

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It is a little premature to speculate about how Jerez would close down! However, be assured that it would be an orderly process. Knowing the organisation as I do I think it highly unlikely that any customer would end up with a raw deal. In fact you might end up with a quite a good deal - just like the first students at Jerez who had 3 aircraft each etc.

I believe that in the past the school did enjoy a somewhat ringfenced existence in the the BAe empire. I have been told that the school only ever made money one year out of four. It was deemed as useful to have an ab initio school by sales staff flogging lucrative civil and military contracts in places like the middle east. Prestwick was certainly home to a significant number of middle eastern students who had a leisurely approach to training and life itself...

Anyway, all speculation and navel gazing.

The real problem I think is that the argument for JAA modular is stronger than that for JAA integrated.

To be honest I think that is was always the intention of those in the shadowy corridors of power. Integrated would mostly be airline cadets and Modular would be mostly self sponsored. You can see it in the small syllabus differences - Integrated students only complete a couple of dozen SOLO hours. Its all geared to multi pilot ops. There was a belief in the latter 90's that in the future most airlines would select and sponsor most of their FO's. The likes of the Airbus and NG Boeings meant that the old routes of Senecca flying then turboprop then jet was not felt to provide the optimum preparation for the jet.

Hence the rise of MCC and JOC courses - the FNPT2 standard was introduced and suddenly there were quite good sims popping up all round the country.

Airlines were going to want to have new entrants complete somewhat customised ab initio courses with MCC using airline SOPS and a full type related JOC course integrated smoothly between basic and line training. This would be a brave new world where basic handling skills were held to a minimum standard (e.g. no solo twin time required) and the softer skills were emphasised (e.g. lots of sim exercises focusing on decision making and lateral thinking).

It all sounds very nice apart from it being balerics.

Airlines suddenly dropped all sponsorship as they focussed on not going bust. Those self sponsored students that were undeterred did the sums and worked out that Modular was the way to go. Hence you find the smaller FTO's around the country are packed out and making good money. Indeed smaller new commercial FTO's are being founded within 5 miles of where I type now.

The worm will turn though.

After ever slump there comes a point whereby things pick up. For a very short sweet time everyone starts hiring - seemingly at the same time. It happend as I recall in 1993/4. After a few years of misery post 1990 GWone suddenly lots of flying instructors I knew were packing their bags and off to the airlines or freight haulers. The industry is bigger now and more fluid with people less likely to work for one airline their whole career. Possibly this will make the upswing more vicious this time.

The critical bit is to be in the right place at the right time with the right bits of paper.

There will be people whose IR of Class One has lapsed just at the wrong time. Whose CVs' 6 month stay in the pile has just elapsed the week before the Chief Pilot asks to see it... etc.

Good luck,

WWW