International language

[Kite23]

I am new to this Forum so please forgive me if I am repeating an already covered subject.
It appears that Charles de Gaulle ATC continue to communicate in French even after the sad loss of a British pilot whose aircraft was struck by another due to 'language confusion'.
Despite all the professionalism and safety requirements expected by civilian airline operators the stark truth is that English is the recognised International communication language. Why do the French feel that their need to use their local language is more important to them than the safety of, not only themselves, but others around them and furthermore, is there not an International statute which could enforce them to conform?

[priscilla]

I would say that in France we are still waiting that all the pilots speak in French...;)
Don't think we need someone to force us to speak english!...They made a try in CDG but I've heard they had some problems because Pilots and ATC were not prepared to that....(English level is rising among ATCs...we have better trainings and a lot of possibilities to train )...But they are still speaking of it....It'll come
Sure that's a pity for our language but I agree that it would be safer !
Reading this forum I realise that a unic language in aviation allows a lot of people to comunicate (even if our english is not perfect! I hope you understand me ;) )

[Cathar]

The French comply with the relevant international requirments
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Annex 10
to the Convention on International Civil Aviation
Aeronautical Tele communications
Volume II
Communication Procedures including those with PANS status

5.2.1.2 Language to be used

5.2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications
shall be conducted in the language normally used by the
station on the ground or in the English language.

Note 1.-- The language normally used by the station on the
ground may not necessarily be the language of the State in
which it is located. A common language may be agreed upon
regionally as a requirement for stations on the ground in that
region.

Note 2.-- The level of language proficiency required for
aeronautical radiotelephony communications is specified in
the Appendix to Annex 1.

5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on
request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services.

[Sheep Guts]

This is not confined to France guys. Latin America all the Controllers at Airports and Centers speak Spanish. They will reply to you in English when they here you, but its only standard phraseology they know. If something out of the norm is said they havent a clue. Then they speak spanish to all the other Spanish Speaking Traffic. Sometimes like the other day I got a relay from an Aero Mexico DC-10 luckily the F/O or NFP new good english. Thanks Guys.

ICAO is really anotehr toothless Tiger that has a bunch of signatory states but doesnt really have any commonality except the Aircrew Licence compsition and Air Rules. Englis being the International Aviation Language is still a Pipe Dream. Especially when it is dealt with a second language in alot oof these States.

Dont know what its like in other Non English parts of the World but assume there must be a lot of different Lingos spoken out besides Spanish and French

The German Condor Crews have problems understanding Jamaican English I know that for a fact, even Canadians do!:{ :E :ok:

[flufdriver]

There is a lot of that going around.

I feel that it is incumbent upon Pilots to listen carefully and confirm that what they understood is what was said. Confusion and misunderstanding are as often caused by not expecting certain perhaps unfamiliar words as anything else.

Our controllers here use ICAO phraseology and do not have radar, which brings a procedural vocabulary to the situation that many north american Pilots are no longer used to. Also transition altitudes are not uniform in our region.

I also feel that ATC needs to try and keep the background noise in their work environment as low as possible, or use microphones that do not pick up the conversations around them.

Another thing that has suffered is the use of standard phraseology, I'm not interested that the reason you are requesting direct to X or possibly Y, is because there is a CB sitting about 50 miles ahead that may be requiring deviation and you know that there is a restricted area on one side of the airway, just say "requesting present position direct X" and let somebody else get a word in.

[Kite23]

Cathar, You quote.. 5.2.1.2.1 The air-ground radiotelephony communications shall be conducted in the language normally used by the station on the ground or in the English language.

This is my exact point. If the ground is talking in Swahili and, let's face it, not many people speak it, why does this ruling exist if it is blatantly obvious that it will cause confusion?

It seems to me that it should be one language only and no other. Make it French, make it any language you like, but to carte blanche the issue by accepting two (or a myriad of choices) seems madness to me and I'm only a passenger!

If you meet a native in the jungle and you cannot converse then you adopt sign language. If you are lining up at CDG and you cannot understand ATC doesn't this ring alarm bells?

Perhaps I am being over anxious here but I find it very difficult to comprehend why any safety conscious organisation should issue 5.2.1.2.1. One agreed language by definition provides clear and concise comms so why compromise the matter by accepting anything less?

[reynoldsno1]

5.2.1.2.2 The English language shall be available, on
request from any aircraft station, at all stations on the ground
serving designated airports and routes used by international air
services.
Does this answer your question?

ICAO is really anotehr toothless Tiger
Was never really meant to be anything else - it is a UN body, and never intended to be a regulatory organisation. It produces Standards and Recommended Practices, but these are not binding on Member States. The only requirement is that you tell the rest of the world if you don't follow the SARPs

[JJflyer]

Ever flown to Northern European countries? You will be lucky to hear anyone speaking anything else than English on the radio. In many places ATIS is only available in English.

JJ

[FougaMagister]

The truth is, English is NOT the internationaly recognised language of aviation. There is in ICAO no mandatory rule that says English only should be used. Incidentally,French is one of the working languages of ICAO, a UN-dependant organisation headquartered in French-speaking Montreal, Quebec!

Seriously though, I find it quite boring to always hear the same old stories about the French speaking French, when the same happens all over the world - isn't there a bit of Frog-bashing going on here?

Remember, the majority of French flyers (PPL and beyond) only fly within their own borders, therefore there is no obligation for them to learn and speak English on the R/T, and forcing them to do so would probably create more problems than it's worth, with a two-tier aviation fraternity (i.e., those that speak English fluently, and those... who don't).

I wonder what British flyers would say if they were told when starting flight training, that, by the way, they also have to learn a foreign language. Surely, that would be portrayed as unbearable arrogance...

The sad truth is that the British education system does not encourage students to keep on learning foreign languages, and therefore Britons expect foreigners to learn THEIR language. It doesn't take much effort to understand enough French to fly (or taxi) safely in France.

I find it quite strange that fellow pilots, who have had to learn so much since they started flight training, are so unwilling to make a little effort to learn a modicum of French when it would make their safe flying even safer.

Cheers

[regor]

Kite23- Your original post stated that the accident at CDG was due to "language confusion". This was not the case at all. The primary cause of the accident was due to the ATC controller confusing the position of the Short and granting permission to enter the active runway when another aircraft had already been cleared for takeoff.

The issue surrounding language was that the crew 'may' have been able to avert the accident if they had been aware of the other aircraft on the runway, but it was not the ultimate cause.

However, I agree that a common language would be the ideal, but FougaMagister makes a valid point, in what our view would be if the shoe was on the other foot.

Whatever happened to Esperanto? Wasn't this the original generic language that was going to be the perfect compromise!

With the advent of FANS, hopefully language will become less of an issue in the future.

[Sheep Guts]

Fouga Magister,
I dont think we are "Frog Bashing" nor is there a requirement to start bashing "English Speaking Nations" aswell. Foreign language education aside. One must decide wether it is feasable to have Multi-Lingual Pilots and make what languages part of this regime, if desired upon.

Practical analysis and understanding of each individual countires reliance on English or French or Spanish or what ever, does determine the choice of language on their airwaves. The thing is we have to cross the lingual barriers and arrive at a commonality which ever language or system we use. More must be done now and not later! This topic of language inconsistancey has bee around since the Aviations inception.

As regor has said FANS may be the answer, but will only affect Europe and no where else until Total RADAR coverage is accomplished.

Different languages in a Non Radar environment to me is of the Most Dangerous situation that International Aviation contronts today. If we dont reducate Personnel or increase their lingual knowledge outside the box ( ie. standard phraseology) more problems may occur. Readback of everything is paramount in my thinking But this alone wont help, especially if something out of the Noro occurs and in the heat of the moment something catastrophic will occur.

Adois Amigos

Sheepy

[radar707]

Priscilla,

The incident at LFPG occurred because a controller cleared the shorts to line up at an intersection and then cleared the MD80 ??? for take off, from the threshold.

As I understand it, the controller concerned wasn't a CDG controller but brought in to cover for the football match.

The French language thing cannot be an issue as it is an ICAO approved language therefore there is no legal requirement for controllers at LFPG to peak English, however, since the MAIN language of aviation IS ENGLISh, then it would be unreasonable of French controllers to expect non French speaking aircrew to understand French.


I cannot remember how many MOR reports I've read involving CDG that state thankfully a crew member understood French and declined the clearance on safety grounds.