Flight subsidies - N Ireland

[ALLMCC]

Expected news confirmed - www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/business - any educated guesses on which routes/operators and which airports?

[10 DME ARC]

The EEC has just told Strasbourg it was illegal to subsidise airlines BUT its OK for governments to do it?

What makes NI so different to other regions of the UK or Eire?

[ALLMCC]

Scotland & Wales have had similar subsidies for international routes for some time - only bringing NI into line!

[mysecretsmile]

The announcement is great news for the province as a whole. For too long N.Ireland has been cut off from Europe, with passengers having to either interline through a UK hub or go via Dublin airport.

I have heard strong rumours that BHD will pick up a Paris, Brussels and one other - my guess is that it will be BMI/BMI Baby if they make the move down the road to BHD.

Easyjet will almost certainly be gunning for similar routes from
BFS.

Jetmagic and Air France are two others to look out for as possibles from BHD.

I also think Ryanair will start to come into the picture, although as to which airport only time will tell, they possibly have a greater chance of competition with Easyjet if they take the location advantage of BHD (much greater catchment area), plus TBI won't want to ruffle the feathers of Easyjet at BFS.

Although not sure how keen the residents in Sydenham will be on those old Ryanair 737/200 if that is what MOL has on offer.

10 DME ARC - my understanding of these recently announced subsidies are that they are for the airports in NI and not the airlines. There are to compensate for collecting smaller landing fees on these new routes.

[virginblue]

Subsidies are ok as long as they are open to everyone. The Strasbourg was different because the deal a) was only available to Ryanair (AFAIK) and b) drove an incumbent (Brit Air) out of the market

[mysecretsmile]

10 DME ARC - my understanding of these new subsidies are that they are for the airports and not for the airlines. They are to compensate for collecting less landing fees on the new European routes.

[MarkD]

10 DME ARC

Public Service Obligation subsidies are paid by the Republic's govt for routes from DUB to KIR, GWY, SXL, CFN and LDY. All but LDY are Aer Arann licences, the latter Loganairs.

They are payable where no commercial operator is already flying the route.

In the Strasbourg case, the AF subsidiary claimed they were already on the route and the subsidy had the effect of pushing them off.

As for Belfast, it sounds like a job for a Jetmagic ERJ style operation, though it may all end in tears as they prove the routes and then the big boys snaffle the pax!

[ALLMCC]

To further comment on this issue, I note from this mornings press that BHD are citing Paris & Frankfurt amongst possible destinations - however, is not the ridiculously absurd annual passenger ceiling of 2.2m going to cause a serious obstacle to development of international and, indeed, domestic growth.

As far as I am aware this restriction was voluntarily agreed to by previous owners Bombardier who were, no doubt, under severe pressure from BFS who never seem to have been able to handle competition from BHD. The restriction would need to be substantially increased urgently or better still removed. If there is resistance to this from BFS then perhaps it would be an issue for the Competition Commission to decide on.

It is about time both airports were allowed to compete on a level playing field!

[glynn-kayes]

ALLMCC.What makes you think that all new direct european routes will operate from bhd?.As the only airlines being mentioned are jetmagic bmi and so on what about mytravellite and easyjet.As far as i know, after my collegue spoke to a jetmagic fo last week at man, bhd-ork is their worst performing route and its future is not looking to healthy so why dont you just wait and see what happens.The world does not revolve around belfast city airport,or dident you know that??????.

[ALLMCC]

glynn-kayes

Just to set the record straight I wasn't suggesting that all continental routes should operate from BHD. Up to now our so-called international airport has been more obsessed with flooding the market with domestic services in a pathetic attempt to marginalise BHD. It should be obvious to them that this is not working.

It is about time BFS woke up and smelt the coffee! If they had expended as much time trying to establish international routes as they have trying to put BHD out of business then perhaps the subsidies would not have been required.

As for Jet Magic, whether they go or stay will hardly have a major effect on BHD.

As for BFS, the future does not revolve around them either - the success of BHD has proved that!

[glynn-kayes]

ALLMCC,Im not havin a go at you personally but i must point out to you that bfs have for years been trying to persuade airlines to operate direct routes and a few have tried af bd sn and ei although ei i think were too hasty pulling the jfk route so fast after sept 11.As far as flooding the market with domestic flights,obviously ezy are winning hands down as every route they operate from northern ireland is the market leader.Lets face it,if the truth be known flybe only adopted the lcc ethos because ezy were, and still are thrasing them from belfast.I mean get real, a 737 versus a dash 8 and 7 lgw,s per day,now down to four and no stanstead and lcy via iom,but only in the morning.Ezy is now the largest operator from belfast and the largest mover of bfs/lon pax<or to put it in lay mans terms the largest mover of pax between belfast and london>also bfs lpl is the uks largest domestic route bar london.Also ferrovial are first and foremost a construction company who have just got themselsves a nice piece of prime dockland.Mmm.i wonder what the landscape around sydenham will look like in 10years time??????

[ALLMCC]

glynn-kayes

Thanks for that! accept what you are saying - however, perhaps you have overlooked BMI - they have just released figures for August which show an average load factor on BHD-LHR of 89%.

Easyjet frequently claim they are the largest carrier from Belfast to London - however, these are THEIR claims and have not been substantiated by any outside agency to my knowledge. Forget the hype - MOL has shown Easyjet to be somewhat economical with the truth on many occasions.

As far as Flybe are concerned, can't disagree with what you say - they do seem to have lost their way somewhat - perhaps the time is ripe for somebody new with a bit of fight and ambition to step in!

[MarkD]

Please note I didn't say Jetmagic should start flights from Belfast. I just meant some Belfast people should put their hands in their pockets and fund a startup CRJ/ERJ operator which serves Northern Ireland, since JetM started because we couldn't trust Dublin based operators mess us about.

[Uncle Monty]

Just been confirmed, bmi to put A320s (156 seats) on in place of A321s (pos 195 seats) - bhd lhr - starting next week. Will run like this until the end of the winter schedule, when it says it "expects" the A321 to return.

Apparently, it is for the software to be updated on the A321. Without it, there would have to be more diversions to BFS to comply with new stricter Airbus guidelines re landings and weather.

ezy are close to having half the London market. Come the start of November, there will be 15 daily 737 flights from BFS to STN, LTN, and LGW (mon-fri)

By comparison, from bhd there will be 8 (mon-fri) with bmi to lhr and 4 (mon fri) with flybe on 146s to lgw.

It would be surprising if ezy weren't carrying more than 50-55 per cent of London traffic this winter.

[glynn-kayes]

ALLMCC,i just saw the caa figures for the last quarter which every airline has to submit and ezy are no1 followed by bmi on bhd/lhr.in third is be and 4th fr ldy/stn,anyway its nice to have an argument with someone who keeps it light and dosent have to stoop to levels that others use by just thowing swipes at each other.As i said before we all should wait and see and i think there will be a few surpises on the way.My argument has always been 1 airport for northern ireland and airlines competing, not airports competing with each other.Northern ireland has too few a population for 3 airports trying to compete and belfast too small a city to feed 2 airports and that has kept continental operators from coming in to the province for years.Or if they have come in they havent lasted because how many times have you and i heard <oh the wee airports handy for me ,or, oh aldergroves handy for me>.Northen Ireland needs rationisation of airports and until then, and only then will we see an abundance of new routes lots of competition and for the first time the comsumer in the driving seat with his or her choice.

[tallseabird]

Well said glynn-kayes.
I used to think there was a place for both airports, BHD regional/UK and BFS UK/EU and further but the situation has changed Belfast/Liverpool (as is much talked about) is a busy route, I would say not quite the typical regional route.

Airlines and airports have used the situation to their own ends - understanbly so that is business, but it has been to the detriment of the consumer.

[ALLMCC]

glynn-kayes

Thanks for that - as long as we make our comments constructive I agree - suggest we leave it at that and see what develops - unfortunately BFS is somewhat inconveniently located to Greater Belfast where most of the population is located. It also lacks a rail link and the road structure serving it is less than ideal.

Admittedly, these are factors beyond its control but it does explain why there is a healthy demand for BHD - as far as Ferrovial is concerned I think it unlikely they would spend £35m buying the airport and a further £6m on runway upgrading if they proposed to offload it.

On the separate post regarding BMI replacing the A321 with the A320 on LHR, I have been told that 2 or 3 extra rotations may be introduced to cater for the lower capacity of the A320.

[glynn-kayes]

ALLMCC. Now if your talking logistics bhd is not more convenient to the majority of ni populatiion.Bfs, is, as it ihas a central location to the vast majority of people who reside in ulster.But please try and see the bigger picture.So,ok,bfs closes because of competition from bhd.We all end up with a regional airport with a very small runway and we all have to go on our holidays from dublin because bhd cant land a charter,or a 330 from toronto or a b767 from sanford.Thats why bhd has held back NORTHERN IRELAND PLC.Regional airport regional thinking.As i said 1 airport and more competition....Anyways its friday and im out to get absolutley blocked..hehe..ALLMCC enjoy your weekend,i certantly will>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ALLMCC, i think bhd now lacks a railtrack too?????????????????????????????????

[Uncle Monty]

ALLMCC

I see you've taken to writing letters to the Belfast News Letter pleading BHD's case.

I think it'll take a bit more than that to get the planning restrictions lifted - a very messy public inquiry at the least.

[ALLMCC]

Uncle Monty

Do I detect a note of panic in your post! or perhaps are you running scared - after all this is traditionally the time of year when BFS gets a few shocks - remember 2001! I am quite within my rights to voice my opinions in the local press - free speech is still permitted to my certain knowledge.

As far as a public enquiry is concerned, please do remember that the restriction was not at the behest of the public in the first place so why should they be involved now? Simply a matter of BHD not allowing themselves to be bullied by corporate greed any longer.

Best to wait and see what happens in the next few weeks.

[NWSRG]

Folks,

Seems to me that government subsidies for new routes will certainly benefit NI, but surely these would not have been offered had some plans not already been discussed?

I suspect that Ryanair are in the picture somewhere. They are unlikely to go to BFS due to Easy already being the main tenant, so my guess is BHD.

That will fragment the market even more. In the end, BFS will survive because it is our only airport capable of taking the big stuff, and that market won't go away. Also BHD is in a prime development site - the Harbour Commissioners would stand to make a pretty penny if the airport were sold.

What we need for is government to make a decision - what is the strategic plan for NI air travel.

The answer is BFS with a new rail link (not a massive project given the proximity of the Antrim line). Ultimately, BHD and BFS are both handy to the majority of the population. After all, we aren't that big a place, and folk from Bangor would be at BFS far quicker than say folks from north of Manchester trying to get to their airport.

[brabazon]

What about expanded Ryanair operations at LDY e.g. routes to Hahn and Charleroi?

[ALLMCC]

NWSRG

Cant disagree with anything you say - unfortunately, if we are waiting for a government intervention, dare I say we will all have a long wait! Of course. the answer is a high speed rail link serving BFS but it seems that this will be a long way off if indeed it ever happens, judging by comments recently made by both the DOE and NIR - if I remember correctly an annual passenger throughput of around 8m would be required to justify this. To add insult to injury, NIR have seen fit to close the Antrim-Lisburn line putting the chances of a rail link even further away.

I still think therefore that there is a place for both airports bearing in mind the above. After all, nearly 2m passengers using BHD can't all be wrong.

[Richard Everest]

ALLMCC,

pathetic throw away remarks re 2001 are not funny, clever, constructive or, to my mind, welcome in a forum like this! Also, your pro-BHD bias and blinkeredness is quite pathetic.

Time for someone to get
a) out more,
b) real and
c) a life.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ALLMCC]

Richard Everest

I'll treat such rudeness with contempt and ignore it! All other posts on this subject have managed to retain a certain civility - pity you have decided to resort to insults!

Fortunately, what goes around comes around! Perhaps you might like to consider going to where your personal title suggests you come from!

[controller friendly]

ALMCC

I have to admit I also took offence at your remarks about what happened in 2001.

I know at the time that certain people who worked at BHD were rubbing their hands with glee as airline after airline announced that they were pulling out of BFS.

Now alls fair in love and war and all that there but what happened has been detrimental to the province as a whole, not to mention the poor people whose lives were turned upside down because they lost their job or are now forced to commute to the busiest international airport in the world....:hmm:

A wiseman once told me, when i worked at BHD and an airline which operated out of BFS had gone bust, that it wasn't good news, cause it wasn't good for the industry.......and as is very often the case what goes around comes around..... :(

[mysecretsmile]

Unfortunately I can't see the rail link ever being extended out to BFS, NIR/Translink won't spend the money as they don't see it as financially sustainable service and the management at BFS don't want it enough to lobby for it. They are quite happy for passengers to bring their cars with them and pay the car parking fees which make sigificant contributions to the airports turnover.

[ALLMCC]

Perhaps I should clarify comments made in my recent posts which seem to have been taken out of context - my remarks about loss of business at BFS in 2001 was not intended as a gloat - it was simply to illustrate how volatile this industry is and that things can change virtually overnight.

Admittedly, most of the airline losses to BFS at that time were due to factors beyond their control that is apart from the BMI situation which could have been retrieved. I too have suffered redundancy (not in this industry I might add) and it is not a very pleasant situation to be in after over 20 years service.

All business these days is ruthless and the every man for himself adage applies more than ever. Its really up to every business to sell its product effectively and let the consumer decide where to put his or her money.

For those that took offence at my remarks I apologise - the comments were not intended to be offensive.

[Richard Everest]

ALLMCC,

fair enough.

[controller friendly]

ALLMCC

Apology accepted......:D

[mysecretsmile]

I recent press article on the situation I think very well
sums up the situation on the subsidies and clarifies some of the points that have been debated on this board.



link (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/business_telegraph/story.jsp?story=443526)

[ALLMCC]

Latest update on this subject - looks as if some announcement is in the offing. The comments concerning Ryanair are interesting and somewhat optimistic considering the talks have foundered!

www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=784544

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=456528

[mysecretsmile]

It's good news to see things are progressing on the European Routes, certainly the whole of NI will benefit.

I believe Ryanair will shortly announce new European services from BFS, I 've heard from reliable sources that Ryanair aren't even talking to BHD about options there and aren't likely to be in the future either.

I wonder what effect Ryanair's presence at BFS will have on Easyjet, surely Easyjet won't want to miss out on these direct european routes ? Does anyone know what European routes (if any) that Easyjet have pitched in for from BFS ?

But lets hope we see a few new carriers setting their stalls up in NI - Ryanair, Aer Lingus, KLM & Air France to name but a few.

[LGS6753]

EZY will only fly from BFS to other established destination airports in their network, like GVA, PRG, CDG and AMS. FR won't fly to any of these due to cost. In my view their most likely destinations are their European hubs like HHN and BGO.
So FR and EZY are unlikely to compete head-to-head, unless FR decides to start STN-BFS!

[richardnei]

Spoke to a newly recruited easyjet cabin crew member last week and she was told during her training course that CDG, BCN, AGP, ALC are the routes that easyjet are looking to start in the new year from BFS.

Also and increased frequency to AMS is also expected soon.

[ALLMCC]

All this talk of predicted routes is somewhat premature bearing in mind that not only BFS but also BHD & LDY have made submissions to Air Route Development. It will then be up to them under consultation to decide which are viable and hence qualify for a subsidy.

What is clear is that any incursion by Ryanair into Easyjet's monopoly at BFS could well have serious consequences for Easyjet's relationship with BFS. OK initially there may not be any competition between the two but, down the line, once MOL gains a foothold he will grasp any opportunity to compete head on with them on any route be it domestic or international. A battle for business could then ensue with BFS being caught in the middle and it would only be matter of time before one operator would have to give in. One can only surmise that it is for this very reason that exploratory talks between Ryanair & BFS have produced no agreement.

In addition, it should also be borne in mind that operations from BHD could be seriously compromised and in the end the flying passenger could well be worse off with less choice! Is this really what we all want?

[brabazon]

ALLMCC

I don't know the exact process in relation to the award of subsidies form the Route Development Fund - but I guess they will have to weigh up competing "bids". I am not sure how much BHD will be effected since I don't see how a route already served from BHD "economically" can be served from BFS under a subsidy - surely the criteria has to be that it is not served at present?

As for Ryanair competing with easyJet very rarely do they go head-head since easyJet aim to fly to "principal airports" rather than "secondary" ones - the one direct head-head one is STN-CIA which is an ex-go route and on which it looks lie Ryanair are taking the lion's share. I don't see the arrival of Ryanair at BFS having that much impact on easyJet unless there is a finite number of travellers who are not destination-concerned (e.g. those just looking for a cheap weekend away in Europe, but don't mind if its Germany or the Netherlands - they may switch to going on a Ryanair flight to Hahn rather than an easyJet one of Amsterdam or whatever.

As for Ryanair not coming to an agreement with BFS - I'm sure they're playing hardball as ever and sticking out for the best deal - while also keeping LDY as an option.


Anyone know when the first subsidised routes will be announced?

[ALLMCC]

Brabazon

Fair comment - all I'm saying is I just can't see Ryanair & Easyjet co-existing at BFS. Its common knowledge that Easyjet have BFS by the b***s and BFS simply cannot afford to compromise their operations. To bring Ryanair in at all bearing in mind that there is little love lost between the two would be like waving the proverbial red flag at the bull and would result in BFS being used as a battleground for a war of words - would this really benefit anyone?

I agree that MOL will probably hold out for the best deal he can get but I simply can't see him being content to operate a few routes out of BFS and simply sit back and watch while Easyjet flood the rest of the market - his track record in the past has shown that he is quite prepared to take on Easyjet on their own territory & his almost daily comments about them are somewhat less than complimentary!