East Anglias' own Airway?

[capt hangover]

Now, is it just me or has anyone else noticed that the skies above the North Norfolk coastline have become increasingly busy of late???

Rumour has it that it's 'LL' traffic in & outboud. Of course the capitals' TMA is extremely bus but that seems a little 'round the houses'. :confused:

[LostThePicture]

More likely to be "CC" outbound traffic flying eastwards. The new North Sea airspace (since March) has caused the east-west routes to be shifted to the south, and one of the eastbound upper air routes passes just over the North Norfolk coast. The route can also get quite busy with Oceanic traffic into Amsterdam.

However, as it's an upper air route, the traffic should only be above FL250 - had your binoculars out have you? :8

[atcomarkingtime]

The airway from OTR to Bluffa was moved south - you'll find it's from FL175 and above though - so the eyesights doesn't need to be that good!!!

[capt hangover]

Thankyou both.

And no, I'm not one of those! I am proud to say I've never owned an anorak!!:)

[LostThePicture]

Yes, the airway Y70 has also moved south, but its centreline is still 10 miles off the coast (quite a challenge to the naked eye) - it's the upper air route UL603 that runs right over the coastline.

LTP

[Flap Speed]

Capt Hangover,

You're not the first to have noticed the increased traffic along this airway/routing. It is the restructuring of the airspace over that side of the country that have caused it.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98958

The DESIG departures from CC if heading in your general direction will pick up the airway at DESIG which is sort of (experts please forgive my generalisation of it's actual position) east and slighly north of the centre line of 24R at EGCC... ish.

It then routes out over the Sheffield area as the link above shows and the routes all the way down to DOLAS which by my reckoning is somewhere close to Cromer. Then out over the North Sea where after a while they all become somebody elses problem!!

No offence chaps! :ok:

[BALIX]

If it comes as a surprise to you East Anglians to see more traffic, it came as a bit of a shock to me when I was a passenger from EGPF to EHAM a month or so back. It was a glorious cloud free day and idly gazing out of the window I was able to see Newcastle, the North Yorks Moors, the Humber bridge, the Wash, Norwich...

Despite doing the Montrose sector, which goes down as far as Scarborough, I hadn't realised just how far south we would go before turning left across the North Sea. (Had I put the coastline map on the radar before I went it would have been a dead giveaway).

In the good old days traffic from the Scottish TMA coasted out at Newcastle and went in a straight line to EHAM. Alas, the MOD have insisted that a bloody great danger area be placed over the North Sea which means all the air routes have had to be shifted around it. This is the real reason you are seeing more stuff over the north Norfolk coastline; in an ideal world the airways and UAR's would be a bit further north.

[whowhenwhy]

As we again approach the anniversary of the Battle of Britain I remain grateful to those of us who continue to serve so that the rest may enjoy the free and democratic society that so many died to protect. It is a shame then that some refuse to link the sacrifices of the past with training for the sacrifices of the future!

Lest we forget!

[BALIX]

whowhatwhywhatever

That's taking the guilt trip a bit too far, isn't it? I too am glad we have an Air Force but it doesn't alter the fact that a great big danger area has been established in the North Sea and that airways and UAR's have had to be routed around it.

Incidentally, these danger areas - there are another two huge ones further north - have been set up as EFA Typhoon training areas. Shame we don't have any at the moment.

[whowhenwhy]

Yup, we now have 3 new lovely MDAs, unfortunately managed by scopies, but we can't have everything! Yes the whole re-arrangement has been somewhat of a mish-mash of what everyone wants, but as has been discussed on this forum many times I think the consensus is that it's an arrangement that is 'fit for purpose' (what a wonderful phrase!). Most people seem to have done alright out of it, if anything we mil guys have been placed at a disadvantage in some ways by all of it (but we've talked about that before too). As far as the guilt trip is concerned the comment was more general in nature, aimed towards many, not simply yourself BALIX. I guess it was more the way that you stated that the MoD insisted that they were there, as opposed to what actually happened with the years of back and forth shuttling to come to a final agreement as to what would happen. But then as an old soldier poet once said when he wrote 'Tommy this and Tommy that' , it is not a new problem. Just one that is a sore point at present with the continued reverberations about why we went into Iraq.

[BALIX]

OK, fair enough but I wasn't trying to make a political point out of it - just stating a fact that the MDA is big and in an inconvinient place, at least as far as we civvies are concerned. I guess airways are something of an inconvinience to you mil guys too.

If it were not there (specifically the southern MDA), we could have the NEW-GODOS route permanently which would allow the normally quiet Humber sector take some of the traffic off the frequently busy sectors 10 and 11. We could also straighten out the GODOS-FINDO/STN routes which would make conflict detection in the LARDI/ROLUM/VENAS area of the Humber sector a little bit more straight forward.

But I suppose there was never much chance of them sticking the MDA's in Canada so we have to live with it. Hope when they finally scrap the Typhoon on expense grounds that the MDA's will be disestablished :)

[Avoiding Action]

WhoWhenWhy,

I think you'll find that 'scopies' do not manage them, but coordinate the bids from the AD Sqns and control in them when GCI is required. I believe there is a cell somewhere at West Drayton that actually has the final say on activation and the like (but I'm prepared to be corrected).

Having said that, you can tell the Fighter Controllers aren't running it - if they were, nobody would be allowed in them, ever;) :D

BALIX,

I think they could have orientated the MDAs better to allow you the direct track you require, but then look at P18 - brand spanking new airway, and we military chappies have still got to contend with civil traffic on a RAS descending through the Vale of York on a gin-clear day. You can't win... ;)

Oh, and I don't want to start a slanging match between us all :ok:

[BALIX]

Avoiding Action, can't comment on the Vale of York but if you ever came up here you wouldn't have to contend with civil traffic on a RAS as we don't provide it (except on ADR's).

Bloody glad I don't do the Tay sector....

BTW, I don't 'require' those direct routes, I'd just prefer them.

[StillDark&Hungry]

I'm sure this will be like stirring a Hornets nest! But.............

Instead of being limited to our 10 mile wide UAR's above 245, wouldn't it be more productive if us civvies had the airspace and gave portions away as requested?

I speak as a frustrated "West-ender" who has been told numerous times recently that the NWMTA is "active til 2359" Only to see 1 Hawk pop above FL245 for less than a minute at 2100!

[savechip55]

That may sometimes be the case in the NWMTA, however it is usually busy in the daytime with numerous a/c (F15/Jagr/Harr/Hawk etc), the east side is even more congested with lots of mil a/c transitting to and from their targets at high level. Mixing civilian fare paying passengers in with this lot in an MDA or equivelent? Not really sure that would be a great idea old chap. :D

[whowhenwhy]

Sorry, you're quite right the MDAs are 'managed' through the booking cell at West Drayton. Those lovely people just down the corridor. I should have been more specific as I meant that the day to day running was down to the scopies!

As far as the NWMTA is concerned the west guys do try to ascertain VLYs intentions so that they can give the airspace back to you as soon as possible, but if 1 ac wants to use it then you can't have it. You could always try "NWA63 now entering the NWMTA, RIS, you are responsible for separation!" What do ya think? :D

[StillDark&Hungry]

www

Believe me - I am happy to stick to the rules but you back up my point, during these "economically restrictive" times it seems ludicrous not to give us the use of hundreds of square miles of airspace just because "1 ac wants to use it"!
I'm just trying to input logic. On your average day down west high level civilian useage outnumbers military significantly (Except during the Thursday War!) So just lend it to us more often.

savechip55

Take the point about east being busier than west - so, why not have different rules! I'm sure you mil guys could cope with the 2. Even us civvies could cope with 2 rules as nobody I know does North Sea & West End!:ok:

[whowhenwhy]

SD&H, I know what you're saying, the only thing is that VLY (as far as I know) can launch ac into the NWMTA, without telling anyone about it, and the ac can just fly about VFR without having to talk to anyone. Consequently if it's booked until 2359 then if they've still got ac to go then it's still 'hot'. The westies just try as hard as they can to ascertain VLYs intentions, and then give you the AS as soon as poss. I'm sure that if someone looked at it then they might well be able to come up with a more flexible plan for using the AS. I guess the situation will be greatly improved when the westies come down to your place too!

[aviate1138]

BALIX said...
'Incidentally, these danger areas - there are another two huge ones further north - have been set up as EFA Typhoon training areas. Shame we don't have any at the moment.'

To digress a little, a man in a pub near Boscombe Down was saying the Typhoon was having problems with getting the flying control system computers up to speed and that it was out of date anyway - true or merely a pub rumour?
I must say that I have never seen a Typhoon/Eurofighter display that inspired me in the slightest.

B J
" Never argue with a fool; people might not be able to tell the difference."