View Full Version : sectarian violence
2nd Sep 2003, 01:07
I went out yesterday with two friends, one of whom is from Belfast, into the centre of Glasgow to watch gaelic football in a pub. Needless to say we had a great time, sank a few pints, had a laugh etc. On the way home when we boarded train 3 young thugs came on, one of them walked over to my Irish mate and punched him on the nose, totally unprovoked, and then ran back off the train and up the stairs. Now the young moron had a Rangers top on, and my mate had a yellow and green gaelic football top on, it's obvious to me this was an act of bigotry! none of us did anything to provoke the attack. I was outraged! I want to know what the hell is the deal with people in this damn city and religious violence! does it really matter if you are catholic or protestant or what football team you support. It goes to show the very closed mind set of many people in Glasgow, when will this f:mad: ing madness end! Parents breed it into their kids to go and sing rebel songs of Ireland and the IRA and lothe anything protestant, or go sing songs or the UDA and hate anything catholic, if they love Ireland so much why won't they go bloody live there instead of bringing their closed minded ignorance over here. Something has to be done to stamp this out! This cr*p cannot go on. Ask some of these half wits who are the UDA or the IRA and what do they do and I bet they won't even be able to tell you or present a valid argument for why they want to go around singing rebel songs and starting trouble. It doesn't just stop there, it happens in football all the time, most commonly Celtic and Rangers. Yesterday in the pub the two sets of fans (Donnegal and Armagh, one team from the republic and one from the British side) sat together and spoke to one another then shook hands with one another at the end of the game, that kind of thing is unheard of here. It was nice to see that at least some people are civilised.
2nd Sep 2003, 01:29
Perpetuated no doubt by the type of sweeping generalisation you just made :hmm:
What you described happens all over the UK because of the failure to address yob behaviour at any level. The sad news is that these scum exist all over the UK.
Law enforcement is hamstrung by the fact that anyone who tries to run a zero tolerance policy towards such behaviour runs up against the Politically Correct judiciary and European legislation which ties the law abiding in knots and gives free reign to the thugs who know how to work the system.
Blunkett is tearing his hair out trying to address the balance but he's lost the plot now.
The hard core bigots you speak of are incorrigible because their small brains need no excuse to lash out at anyone they perceive as "different"and, frankly, they enjoy the one sided violence. Take heart, because the yobs in your particular case will do it again in Glasgow and statistically, they will meet someone of similar ilk but faster and "harder". Macho BS of course but that's their only claim to fame.
2nd Sep 2003, 03:00
Apologies if I generalised too much. I know there are alot of good people in Glasgow, infact most are and it's the minority of half wits who let down the majority as usual. Yes it does happen in other cities, I'm aware of that, I've seen it happen all over the UK in Racial form mainly. In Glasgow it's religious. Unfortunately most thugs do get away with it because of PC sh!te. I can't say but my point is such and such because I don't really think I had a point, I just wanted to express my utter disgust and hopefully hear the views of other people who feel the same way or have been affected in the same way as I have.
2nd Sep 2003, 03:30
I enjoy going to support Rangers but never ever wear any football colours to avoid the type of incident which you have unfortunately been involved in G-A.
It's a sad fact but I think that taking these precautions is neccessary in Glasgow.
2nd Sep 2003, 03:58
Sad isn't it, that a City and culture famed for it's hospitality should be dragged down by the few ?
However, in retrospect now that I have defended my own "Dear Green Place" I have to agree with you that there is an almost subliminal feel to the Rangers / Celtic (Read Protestant / Catholic) bigotry to the outsider and a very much more palpable sectarian divide when you get to know the place.
This of course has been significantly eroded by the fact that the Rangers "bears" have to endure their Centre Forward crossing himself when he scores a goal, to the strangled sounds of their cheering and choking at the same time :D At the same time any Celtic fan worth his salt will tell you of the Protestant referee conspiracy which robs them blind.
Any violence however is usually directed at the brain dead morons on both sides who want each other's scalps on their belts and they tend not to involve outsiders, Team colours or not. I know the majority of Glaswegians would be disgusted at the attack on your friend.
2nd Sep 2003, 04:01
G-ALAN, Gustys right. Your friend should know better, especially him being from Belfast .
Ask him this...would he walk up the Shankill Road in a Celtic shirt?
Or would he walk down The Falls Road in a Rangers shirt?
If he says yes then he needs his head examined.
Glasgow has a reputation anyone from Belfast should be well breifed about.
2nd Sep 2003, 05:42
(slightly off topic)
I'd just like to add that many people down here in the republic regard the IRA and Sinn Fein with the same disdain as any unionist. Crooks and trouble-makers, we call them down here.
All the same, F*ck me that was one cowardly thug.
2nd Sep 2003, 05:56
Many years ago my late father was at an Old Firm game. One fellow ("The Fan") was cheering for a side other than the one generally supported where he was, presumably on the terraces.
The man in front of The Fan eventually turned round, looked The Fan in the face, pulled a razor from his waistcoat, held it up to the light, opened the blade, examined the edge, pulled out The Fan's tie, cut it off at the knot, closed the razor, put it in his pocket, turned back to watch the game; and not a word spoken on any hand.
2nd Sep 2003, 06:36
It is true that wearing Celtic or Rangers tops can be asking for trouble. It wasn't even a Celtic top my friend was wearing, it was just green and yellow. The teams should not be associated with religion however, the ex skipper of Rangers is roman catholic. I think a few people are now comming round to the fact that it's football and not about bloody religion. Pilgrim101, it is a very sad fact that the city is dragged down by these people, we are one of the most friendly cities in the world but we've also developed a reputation for producing 1st class morons who unfortunately bring everyone else down.
2nd Sep 2003, 07:37
Prods and peelers don't play GAA so the Donegal/Armagh thing makes sense, all Tims together.
2nd Sep 2003, 07:45
I can understand the desire to wear tribal colours, never done it meself though, its a herd identification symbol, the old regimental or school tie, or the funny hand shake for that matter, serves the same purpose and stems from the same instinct as the desire to wear your football teams colours.
Trouble is football has changed from ritualistic warfare to more like the real thing.
Hmmm bit deep for you this time of night Drapes.
This has got to ridiculous levels. It's reminded me of the whole Neil Lennon saga. I recall in the Scottish press at the time voices from all sides saying this was disgusting, enough is enough etc. Won't do the trick sadly.
I don't live in Glasgow, but it's even been suggested to me that when a certain team are in town, it would not be wise for me to wear green and white on a Saturday evening.
I'm in offices where there are Rangers, Celtic, Hibs, and Hearts fans. We seem to survive just fine and I've never heard anything sectarian. You have to think it is the minority, but then you go to an Auld Firm and hear the chanting and abuse and begin to wonder.
2nd Sep 2003, 16:53
Ironic, when you think you went out to watch one of the most bigoted and setarian sports on the planet!
2nd Sep 2003, 19:48
Hmmm.. even to a determined non-spectator of all brands of football, a pattern emerges.
Soccer- non violence on the pitch, occasional bloody murder among the fans.
Rugby, Gaelic, Aussie Rules - mayhem on the pitch, peace and harmony among the fans.
All it will take to make soccer peaceful is to add the odd fatality to satisfy our blood lusts.
2nd Sep 2003, 20:53
I once worked in Harland & Wolff in Belfast, that well known equal opportunity employer now defunct at last. We, as clients had a vessel in the H&W yard. One of our engineers hailed from Dublin. One morning he received a letter in the internal mail with a witty little missive of something like "Feck off back to Dublin you Fenian bastard". Just to prove the point there was a live 9mm bullet fetchingly attached to the note.
Belfast in general was OK in the city centre with a few exceptions. I was with two of my mates when we were asked nicely (yes really) by a bouncer not to go into a certain pub where he was minding the door. He reckoned that I was OK with my Welsh accent (he couldn't have known I was Protestant) but my Geordie pal and the Norfolk lad would meet people "who wouldn't like their accents". Ironically, these two were Catholic........We were grateful for the polite warning and went for a drink elsewhere.
2nd Sep 2003, 22:07
Familiar theme is that the yobs have to be either mob handed, on their own turf, or both to ensure that their cowardice doesn't actually shine through the bravado.
I've met these "hard-men" all my life, and they are usually the first to fill their nappies, stick their thumbs in their mouth and cry for "Mammy" when things stack up against them.
Let's face it, we're not talking about an intellectual elite here. They are usually bottom of the pile no hopers who can only measure their worth against their immediate compatriots - not much to aspire to there.:rolleyes:
one of the most bigoted and setarian sports on the planet!
I suspect you are about to be flamed for the above quote Perhaps you would explain your thoughts a wee bit further incase we are missing something.
3rd Sep 2003, 01:39
OK, I'll rise to the bait. Almost exclusively Catholic, Yes, Sectarian and Bigotted, not really, except for the daft 'no british security forces' rule, which should have been repealed long ago. One rarely if ever sees the violence associated with soccer at a GAA match, and its ties with other international games (viz aussie rules) point to it being a lot more inclusive than TR might think.
No, if you want bigotry in sport, good old association football has it pretty much wrapped up: sectarianism; racism; misogyny; zenophobia et al.......
As regards trouble in Glasgow and Belfast , (native to the latter, lived five years in the former) its always going to be there, and its best to err on the side of caution. cover up the top or scarf until you're on safe ground. Better not to give the mindless d@<hidden>*$£%*ds a chance.
Funny, Been a Celtic supporter all my life, and my best pal in glasgow's a rangers fan, so we must be getting somewhere......
3rd Sep 2003, 02:02
sorry to heard that G-Alan... i think that just shows what thick, stupid b@<hidden>*ds we share this city with :ugh:
sadly we do need to take precautions living in glasgow with regards to football... it's wrong to cover up things like that we know - but would you really need a bottle shoved in your face to realize that it is wise to do so ?
it's one of the reasons why i cannot generally be bothered with football really.
3rd Sep 2003, 02:49
In the actual teams, Celtic has played protestants for much longer, I understand, than Rangers has played catholics. I have one book that tells of a Rangers player who was deeply distressed. I believe it is a true story. He confessed to a team-mate that he could not stand the crowd barracking him as a "P*pist b*st*rd". It was really getting to him. Ah, forget it! Don't let it worry you, said the other, They do it to me all the time. "Yes" said the first one "But you ARE a P*pist b*st*rd".
3rd Sep 2003, 02:59
Old Glaswegien goes to the cinema for the first time.
The movie being shown is Quo Vardis,halfway thru he starts shouting and causing a uproar,
Cinema lights go on and the manager approaches old Jock,
"Whats up Jock" says he,
This is terrible all those poor people being eaten by lions it shouldn't be allowed" cries Jock
Manager leans over and whispers in Jocks ear.
"Its alright Jock they are papists"
"Ah" says Jock "switch the film back on then"
Lights go down movie resumes.
Five minutes later Jock starts shouting again.
What is now Jock?asks manager
"Nothing, just that theres two feckin lions there doing nothing"
3rd Sep 2003, 03:23
I spent my childhood in a mining district in Scotland. The population was Protestant, Catholic, Protestant-Atheist, and Catholic-Atheist. Everyone knew who was what.
One old Irish gentleman, Mr H****n had been in the Orange Ludge in Limavady in his youth. The Ludge was well-off, and bought new instruments for the band. The Ancient Order of Hibernians was hard-up.
The Ludge had their parade on the 12th, new instruments at top volume, "The Sash me Fayther Wore", "Green Grassy Slopes o' the Boyne", etc., abuse etc hurled by the Fenian or Dogan side. A good time was had by all.
The day for the Hibernian observance of the local saint approached. Delegation of Hibernians attended at the Ludge: Could they borrow the instruments? Certainly.
That evening, the Ludge met and polished and polished, prior to the hand-over. My Dad asked Mr H****n why the activity? "Oh!" said Mr H****n, "Yese couldn't hand thim over in bad condution.... nut ta thim fellas".
Mind you, I can understand. Even I know the "Shan Van Vogh" from my Irish great-granny. Protestant, of course, but from the South. It does not take much of it to stir the blood:
For Ireland shall be free
From the centre to the sea;
And Hurrah! for Liberty
Says the Shan Van Vogh.
3rd Sep 2003, 05:12
Almost exclusively Catholic, Yes, Sectarian and Bigotted, not really, except for the daft 'no british security forces' rule, which should have been repealed long ago.
Funnily enough a game of Gaelic Football took place recently between 2 teams, one from the NI Police & the other made up of British soldiers.
I'm not sure if they have repealed that rule but if not it'll happen soon enough, the GAA aren't daft & they'll know where there's likely to be a few quid coming from ;)
Anyway, there is a Catholic majority amongst the membership of the GAA, but seeing as the bulk of it's membership is in this country & is by default 'Catholic' then that's not really surprising. Some members may indeed by 'sectarian' but the Association itself isn't, well not these days anyway.
But to refer to Gaelic Football and/or Hurling as either sectarian or bigoted is wrong. It's true that in Northern Ireland the support for these games is 99.9% Catholic/Nationalist etc. but then I could make the point that 99% of support at Soccer in NI is Protestant - however I'm not about to suggest that the IFA is promoting sectarianism (even Linfield sign players on merit now!) because it wouldn't be true.
As for G-ALAN's friend...well it's a nasty incident for sure, but one that could have been avoided. The people who attacked him were scumbags, pure & simple. They just happened to be Rangers fans, but take away the tribal element there & you're still left with someone who wants to beat s**t out of someone else & will have their own twisted reson for doing so...
3rd Sep 2003, 05:35
Sorry to hear about your friend but working most days in Glasgow it surprises me not. I work in a job where I visit various different companies in a weeks work, and the first thing that I am typically asked when walking into somewhere new is 'What football team do you support? Green or Blue?.'
I support neither (best not mention the colour as it's terribly embarrassing), but I now find myself choosing shirt colours or tie colours depending upon whom I am visiting of a day, I do get strange looks when I walk in with a blue waterproof jacket and underneath a green shirt.
Sad as it may seem the lower down the social ladder the worse this bigotry affects people. I know of a client with a high turnover of staff who's first question in an interview is, 'Religion?' Depending on the answer determines the length of the interview.
3rd Sep 2003, 19:33
FSD: i'm sure if the FEC or equivalent heard of your client's behaviour, he'd find himself in very hot water very quickly. I wonder does he apply the same criterion to Black or Asian applicants?
Kopbhoy: I agree except to say that virtually every catholic in the north watches association football, just generally not the local teams, but then when was the last time you darkened the door of tolka park?;-) The cross border cop games are a good idea, Gardai Siochana playing PSNI must set a good example. I believe they do it turn about gaelic and rugby (no hurling as yet).
One of the main reasons that Protestants don't play GAA sports is because they aren't available to them at school. In the same way, northern Catholic schools rarely play rugby. Maybe with a bit of integrated schooling, some of these attitudes might start to change. However, I won't be holding my breath.
3rd Sep 2003, 20:23
but then when was the last time you darkened the door of tolka park?;-)
Er...hmm...about 6 years ago... :=
Can you replace Tolka Park with Anfield as that was last may? ;)
Good point about the schools, if they were just 'schools' without the religious affiliation then it might solve a few things...
BTW would you let the Gardai & PSNI loose on each other in game where they wield sticks? ;)
4th Sep 2003, 16:39
Sorry I've not replied for 2 days, G-ALAN has been in London without proon for 2 days, formulating plans for world domination, oops I mean taking care of business :}
Some interesting points brought up. In general most Rangers and Celtic fans are civilised, they go to the games to actually watch and support their team. There is a small minority who go just to cause trouble, these are the ones who should be banished, put on an island somewhere and blown up. I'm always asked what team I support and I always say none I don't bother, which is true. I do enjoy a good game of football but I don't support any team. I am catholic but I'm in no way bigotted, my father was protestant and alot of my family are also but I couldn't really give a flying f:mad: ck what religion people are.
As for the orange walk, don't get me started on them :* It's the biggest display of ignorance I've ever seen.
4th Sep 2003, 18:36
As F-S-D mentions, I also have been fronted with the "Are you a green or a blue?" question outside a pub during an "Old Firm" game. I hadn't been in the country long, and very innocently (without thinking) replied "Um, what are we talking about?". The reaction of the group of 'men' (I use the term very loosely) was entertaining, with them ambling off muttering "effin Aussies.........", obviously looking for some other way to fill their empty lives.
As someone famous once said..........
"Religion, opium of the masses!"
4th Sep 2003, 19:10
Jerricho- I feel sorry for some of these people, it's sad to think they have noting better to do with their lives but hurl abuse at others and base everything around football. They sit on the dole and go to the pub every morning and get pissed for the rest of the day and talk about how bad their team is and how they could do a much better job if they were manager. :rolleyes:
4th Sep 2003, 23:30
Tower Ranger, perhaps you should take a look at this link before you offer such ludicrous opinions. Whilst, It is certainly true to suggest that the vast majority of GAA suppporters north of the border are indeed Catholic, this can largely be attributed to a variety of historical reasons.
GAA is by far and away the biggest sport south of the border, the organisation is involved in every community throughout Ireland. Croke Park it's home is one of the best modern stadiums in Europe, if not the world. Week after week during the summer months the stadium is filled to capacity circa 75,000, this along with various smaller regional stadiums also being filled. Success in 'the championship' is the highlight of amny people's year.
At some stage in their lives most Irish people(both sexes) have played GAA sports. It is a wonderful organisation, which is run proffesionally at all levels. Furthermore, I have met many British people at Croke Park and have even brought British friends ro matches, I have never once heard of anyone being intimidated or made feel anything but welcome. Even, if one was to wear a Rangers or English Soccer jersey, one would not get anything other then a few startled stares. (as i have witnessed before). I would encourage Tower Ranger, if ever on this side of the Irish Sea to come to a match, before closing his mind.
My apologies. That link is.
5th Sep 2003, 04:18
go to the pub every morning and get pissed for the rest of the day
Sounds great, wish it was me.
Seriously, I once worked for an Dublin based company in Glasgow and at one of the interviews was asked what team I supported.
Knowing that I was qualified for the position, and keen to take it I lied and said Celtic. Next thing I knew a contract was placed before me to sign.
I really enjoyed working with the bigotted fool who asked me that question, all the while he was convinced I was one of the 'good guys.'
5th Sep 2003, 04:20
Hi F C
The only times I`ve been to Croke Park so far have been to see U2 concerts though I drove by it last month about half an hour before some big semi final was due to kick off and the crowds were immense. It`s an impresive Stadium , probably the best in Ireland , so why do they not allow the Irish Football or Rugby teams to play there?
I`m not really into having a political to and fro but surely having an " organisation actively involved in every community throughout Ireland" which has actively and openly discriminated against members of their own communities namely the PSNI/RUC and other security forces can`t set a very good example.
Unfortunately although I spent my first 25 years growing up in the North I never had the opportunity to play any GAA sports which looking back seems strange as I played everything else. However myself and two mates were once beaten up by a gang with Hurling sticks in Donegal but that probably doesn`t count !!
5th Sep 2003, 06:12
If an atheist froggy may give his word about it : soccer supporters around the world gather among them the most stupid type of human beings who are able to perform the wildest and most unhuman actions.
In France I remember of a Paris team gang of supporter which was singing nazi songs.............
In Italy they use to insult black players............
In Germany you find among them lots of dangerous skinheads.....
If only they could find their inspiration in something else that beer ingested in enormous quantity it could help maybe...........
5th Sep 2003, 06:31
Gusty- What I mean is these guys do this because they have nothing else to live for. Don't get me wrong, most of my Saturday is spent in a pub somewhere intoxicating myself, however I do work my ass off and make progress during the week, I do have focus and dreams and goals in my life which I am slowly but surely fufilling. The people I talk about don't have such focus or ambitions, they have nothing better to do with their pathetic lifes but cause trouble.
Granpa- A great saying, soccer is a gentlemans sport played and supported by idiots, rugby is and idiots sport played and supported by gentlemen. In other words soccer does attract an awful lot of idiots. In all honesty they are the minority of the supporters of soccer.
5th Sep 2003, 18:15
Sorry to hear about you're mishap in Donegal TR.
Fair enough point taken, but things are a changing.
As to the rationale for excluding other sporting organisations from using the ground? This is quite topical in Ireland at the moment, lots of people ask the very same question you ask.
It is certainly arguable that it is not the responsibility of the GAA to build a stadium for the other organisations, after all they are in direct competition with the IRFU and FAI. Furthermore, it is not the GAA's fault that the other organisations, have shown themselves to be shortsighted and incompetent.
If as may prove likely that owing to sound financial considerations, the GAA decides that it is in their own interests to 'open their doors' that is their prerogative, but they should not be compelled nor expected owing to some altruistic buzz to do so.
As regards the stadium itself, it has undergone a massive redevelopment since U2 last played there, and I wasn't mincing my words or being melodramatic when I said, that it is (or will be when the last stage is complete) one of the best stadiums in Europe and will certainly compare favourably with anything else in the British Isles. Who knows we might even have FA Cups, Worthless Cups, and the Play-Offs in Dublin? Ok, thats stretching just a bit, but stranger things have happened.
5th Sep 2003, 22:20
A few months ago, the better half and I were touring the Highlands. Driving onto a tiny ferry between the mainland and Skye, I climbed out of the car to be met by a none-too welcoming boatman:
N-TWB: Where did you get that number plate?
G-SXTY [completely bewildered]: Erm, why - do you like it?
N-TWB: No I most certainly don’t. [and walks off]
Mrs F-SXTY: What was that all about?
G-SXTY: [not realising the significance of a registration ending ‘RFC’]: :confused:
Not content to leave it there, he came back for a second bite:
N-TWB [shaking head and employing tone of voice normally used after treading in something unpleasant]: Rangers Football Club. Pah.
G-SXTY: Ahhhhh. :hmm:
I considered pointing out the awful truth; that most of us from south of the border consider Scottish football - Auld Firm & all – to be a bit, well, Mickey Mouse, but I didn’t fancy swimming the rest of the way. :E