MANCHESTER 1
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Freight
You must also remember that an awful lot of freight that passes through the cargo centre (or whatever it is called this week) never goes near an aircraft at Manchester. Instead it gets consolidated with other loads to get cheaper rates and is then trucked off to somewhere else - LHR, Brussels, Amsterdam for instance. This was certainly true in the heyday of flown freight mentioned by Lord 24R; it was estimated then that in addition to the flown freight figures, the transit sheds handled as much as 50% more which came in on a vehicle and left on another and I'm sure this still happens. And of course there will be an unidentifiable amount of air freight from the NW region which goes straight to London or European Airports on a truck for consolidation without even coming through the airport.
I believe that when BA Cargo had their 747 freighter ops at Stansted, most of the freight arrived on a truck, having already been put into pallets and containers at Heathrow...Now of course the Qatar service at STN is done in cahoots with BA
Freight forwarders will look for the best rates for their consignments and route them accordingly. Freight doesn't mind which airport it goes from; the people involved just want to get their goods to their destination on time and at the cheapest possible rate. In addition as pwalhx has stated on here several times, the economic crisis forced manufacturers and logistics companies to seek new and cheaper ways of doing things and much of what once went by air now goes by sea.
Having a good airport operation capable of supporting freight is what matters for the airlines - as we all know the goods carried in the belly-hold of wide bodies makes an important contribution to the economics of the route. And that's what Manchester has. It can use this as a selling point to when pitching for new services and increased frequencies. In addition, if Manchester can't be a*rsed about freight, why is the airport developing the Logistics Hub as part of the Airport City? It won't all be focused on airfreight but it's an important component of it.
I'm sure that MAG will have it's priorities on how air freight can be encouraged at its airports and will do what is best for the business overall. If the airlines are happy, the freight community is happy and both are making a living, does it really matter whether it is flown from Manchester or not?
By the way 24R, the apron has often been used for short term car parking in the past - Cathay used to carry lots of large cars on their freighter 747s
I believe that when BA Cargo had their 747 freighter ops at Stansted, most of the freight arrived on a truck, having already been put into pallets and containers at Heathrow...Now of course the Qatar service at STN is done in cahoots with BA
Freight forwarders will look for the best rates for their consignments and route them accordingly. Freight doesn't mind which airport it goes from; the people involved just want to get their goods to their destination on time and at the cheapest possible rate. In addition as pwalhx has stated on here several times, the economic crisis forced manufacturers and logistics companies to seek new and cheaper ways of doing things and much of what once went by air now goes by sea.
Having a good airport operation capable of supporting freight is what matters for the airlines - as we all know the goods carried in the belly-hold of wide bodies makes an important contribution to the economics of the route. And that's what Manchester has. It can use this as a selling point to when pitching for new services and increased frequencies. In addition, if Manchester can't be a*rsed about freight, why is the airport developing the Logistics Hub as part of the Airport City? It won't all be focused on airfreight but it's an important component of it.
I'm sure that MAG will have it's priorities on how air freight can be encouraged at its airports and will do what is best for the business overall. If the airlines are happy, the freight community is happy and both are making a living, does it really matter whether it is flown from Manchester or not?
By the way 24R, the apron has often been used for short term car parking in the past - Cathay used to carry lots of large cars on their freighter 747s
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Ancient Chinese Proverb
"He who thinks route in bag needs to relook at marketing/communication strategy"
Well they taxied up the apron past the tower but sadly straight on down the other side !
So what did go wrong, if indeed it did ?
Maybe it is a genuine shortage of aircraft, internal bickering, slots etc
Well in truth we don't actually know but on the face of it , it currently looks as though Manchester lost out, it hasn't, at least not yet !
The BHX flights are not an "instead of" between two airports, they are a different type of operation but let's be 100% clear it's a situation that Manchester should be very, very mindful of. The two offers "Manchester Scheduled" and "Birmingham charter" are thus far exclusive.
BUT if this isn't a wake up call to explore every opportunity and make sure you exploit it to the full I don't know what is. The BHX operation could gather enough momentum to morph into something much more very very quickly !
When the Chancellor announced that the framework for UK/Chinese bilateral negotiations offered the opportunity for new service from Manchester did any of us really consider they might actually go to, wait for it, Birmingham, I mean ".....Birmingham, really?"
Maybe that was also the thinking at Olympic House ?
Well they havn't done YET ! ... but they just might......
In the last 2 years we have been offered a drip drip of puff PR peices almost exclusively promoted by my favourite organ the M.E.N.
Manchester was reaching out seemingly saying and doing all the right things, I am the first to appluad the promotion of "The business opportunity", roadshows, commerical opportunities etc The Manchester Forum but have we been blinded by the optimism churned out every month by men in grey suits ?
The Birmingham strategy has focused purely on inbound tourism, quietly but methodically engaging with the largest travel agent in China, checking in with various hoteliers, and tourist agencies setting up partnerships and lo and behold creating a package !
I'm still not sure what the offering actually is....... but that is not the point, and this is where for Manchester things could go very ary, very quickly unless it gets it proverbial backside in gear.
We are 14 months on from when the first charters were muted for BHX, this year that has increased.
Has anybody at Manchester actually thought to themselves "we need pick up the phone and speak to the Travel Agency involved in the BHX operation and quick? "
Or are we sitting on our hands waiting for them to come to us ?
Is Manchester speaking to any of the tourist agencies /hotel chains /retail outlets across the North Of England ?
Manchester has to be the conduit that pulls all the relevent parties together !
Or is the arrogance mentioned by another poster all pervasive ?
There is no need to panic just yet .......but there soon might !
PS Cathay Pacific, one stop to 20 plus destinations on mainland China, lest we forget !
"He who thinks route in bag needs to relook at marketing/communication strategy"
Well they taxied up the apron past the tower but sadly straight on down the other side !
So what did go wrong, if indeed it did ?
Maybe it is a genuine shortage of aircraft, internal bickering, slots etc
Well in truth we don't actually know but on the face of it , it currently looks as though Manchester lost out, it hasn't, at least not yet !
The BHX flights are not an "instead of" between two airports, they are a different type of operation but let's be 100% clear it's a situation that Manchester should be very, very mindful of. The two offers "Manchester Scheduled" and "Birmingham charter" are thus far exclusive.
BUT if this isn't a wake up call to explore every opportunity and make sure you exploit it to the full I don't know what is. The BHX operation could gather enough momentum to morph into something much more very very quickly !
When the Chancellor announced that the framework for UK/Chinese bilateral negotiations offered the opportunity for new service from Manchester did any of us really consider they might actually go to, wait for it, Birmingham, I mean ".....Birmingham, really?"
Maybe that was also the thinking at Olympic House ?
Well they havn't done YET ! ... but they just might......
In the last 2 years we have been offered a drip drip of puff PR peices almost exclusively promoted by my favourite organ the M.E.N.
Manchester was reaching out seemingly saying and doing all the right things, I am the first to appluad the promotion of "The business opportunity", roadshows, commerical opportunities etc The Manchester Forum but have we been blinded by the optimism churned out every month by men in grey suits ?
The Birmingham strategy has focused purely on inbound tourism, quietly but methodically engaging with the largest travel agent in China, checking in with various hoteliers, and tourist agencies setting up partnerships and lo and behold creating a package !
I'm still not sure what the offering actually is....... but that is not the point, and this is where for Manchester things could go very ary, very quickly unless it gets it proverbial backside in gear.
We are 14 months on from when the first charters were muted for BHX, this year that has increased.
Has anybody at Manchester actually thought to themselves "we need pick up the phone and speak to the Travel Agency involved in the BHX operation and quick? "
Or are we sitting on our hands waiting for them to come to us ?
Is Manchester speaking to any of the tourist agencies /hotel chains /retail outlets across the North Of England ?
Manchester has to be the conduit that pulls all the relevent parties together !
Or is the arrogance mentioned by another poster all pervasive ?
There is no need to panic just yet .......but there soon might !
PS Cathay Pacific, one stop to 20 plus destinations on mainland China, lest we forget !
Last edited by Bagso; 4th Mar 2015 at 09:36.
Bagso
You make a myriad of points here.
Correct, the two operations are different - in as much as one exists, and the other is still in the planning stage. But I wonder, why is it so incredulous that BHX be the "non London" destination?
It's a straightforward inbound IT operation, and a UK tour operator is selling China-bound seats on the first two returns from the inbound (July) and the last 2 returns (end August). The spin is that further routes are planned / being worked on from Shanghai and Guangzhou which would further implant BHX as a realistic gateway to the UK aside of London in Chinese minds.
I would say too late for that. The UK ain't that big, and as everyone knows, Birmingham isn't that far from Manchester and the major attractions on offer, whether they be Old Trafford, Main Road, Stratford or Chatsworth all are easily reachable from Birmingham, so why split the market, and make the logistics more complicated than they need to be? In fact, BHX is equally well placed to serve the London market, which is probably a reason why the tour operator has decided to fly to BHX, rather than set up a charter operation into STN or LGW.
That is a very important point! As passengers can hub through HKG on a carrier well known and well respected in the UK, perhaps this has focused the minds of Hainan as the whether the HKG option will dilute the MAN / PEK front end market such that it jeopardises the direct route's potential profitability.
One thing is for certain, we are living in interesting times, especially now that BHX has a truly long-haul capable runway, and a good road and rail infrastructure already in place.
You make a myriad of points here.
The BHX flights are not an "instead of" between two airports, they are a different type of operation but let's be 100% clear it's a situation that Manchester should be very, very mindful of. The two offers "Manchester Scheduled" and "Birmingham charter" are thus far exclusive.
BUT if this isn't a wake up call to explore every opportunity and make sure you exploit it to the full I don't know what is. The BHX operation could gather enough momentum to morph into something much more very very quickly !
When the Chancellor announced that the framework for UK/Chinese bilateral negotiations offered the opportunity for new service from Manchester did any of us really consider they might actually go to, wait for it, Birmingham, I mean ".....Birmingham, really?"
BUT if this isn't a wake up call to explore every opportunity and make sure you exploit it to the full I don't know what is. The BHX operation could gather enough momentum to morph into something much more very very quickly !
When the Chancellor announced that the framework for UK/Chinese bilateral negotiations offered the opportunity for new service from Manchester did any of us really consider they might actually go to, wait for it, Birmingham, I mean ".....Birmingham, really?"
The Birmingham strategy has focused purely on inbound tourism, quietly but methodically engaging with the largest travel agent in China, checking in with various hoteliers, and tourist agencies setting up partnerships and lo and behold creating a package !
I'm still not sure what the offering actually is....... but that is not the point, and this is where for Manchester things could go very ary, very quickly unless it gets it proverbial backside in gear.
I'm still not sure what the offering actually is....... but that is not the point, and this is where for Manchester things could go very ary, very quickly unless it gets it proverbial backside in gear.
Has anybody at Manchester actually thought to themselves "we need pick up the phone and speak to the Travel Agency involved in the BHX operation and quick? "
PS Cathay Pacific, one stop to 20 plus destinations on mainland China, lest we forget !
One thing is for certain, we are living in interesting times, especially now that BHX has a truly long-haul capable runway, and a good road and rail infrastructure already in place.
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Interesting posts by Bagso and ATNotts.
I tend to agree with the latter as far as MAN belatedly wooing the Chinese travel agent. Mind you, we can't be sure that MAN didn't try a similar approach and were beaten by BHX, although I think this unlikely.
The comment about the CX flights could be very relevant and a couple of points come to mind.
Firstly, the unofficial 'announcements' by various sources about Hainan flying Beijing-Manchester were well after CX had already announced HK.
Secondly. if Hainan were waiting to see what happened with the CX flights, it would be fascinating to know the dispersal and origin of those pax inbound and outbound for the first 3 months of operation. i.e MAN-HK only; HK on to, or from, various cities in mainland China; HK to/from Australia/New Zealand and likewise other areas of the Far East. It would also be interesting to know what transfer pax there are at the MAN end.
So, it is fair to ask whether the CX flight from MAN would make it more difficult for Hainan to operate a scheduled service profitably, but equally one could question whether a non-stop flight to Beijing would have any impact on CX. That would also be the case were Hainan to start BHX and not MAN flights.
I see on another site, there is reference to Hainan needing to save face if the scheduled flights don't go ahead. Am I right in thinking some might feel this could apply also to MAN?
Final point about the charters. While BHX is a good choice for places like Stratford-on-Avon and Chatsworth that ATNotts mentions, the latter is also just as convenient for MAN, along with Liverpool, Chester, the Lake District and you could include York and the Yorkshire Dales. MAN appears to have been well focused on business links and inward investment from China but, like Bagso, I do wonder if they have not given enough attention to the potential of inward tourism. If that were the case, it would be a pity, and is evidently an area BHX have capitalised on.
I tend to agree with the latter as far as MAN belatedly wooing the Chinese travel agent. Mind you, we can't be sure that MAN didn't try a similar approach and were beaten by BHX, although I think this unlikely.
The comment about the CX flights could be very relevant and a couple of points come to mind.
Firstly, the unofficial 'announcements' by various sources about Hainan flying Beijing-Manchester were well after CX had already announced HK.
Secondly. if Hainan were waiting to see what happened with the CX flights, it would be fascinating to know the dispersal and origin of those pax inbound and outbound for the first 3 months of operation. i.e MAN-HK only; HK on to, or from, various cities in mainland China; HK to/from Australia/New Zealand and likewise other areas of the Far East. It would also be interesting to know what transfer pax there are at the MAN end.
So, it is fair to ask whether the CX flight from MAN would make it more difficult for Hainan to operate a scheduled service profitably, but equally one could question whether a non-stop flight to Beijing would have any impact on CX. That would also be the case were Hainan to start BHX and not MAN flights.
I see on another site, there is reference to Hainan needing to save face if the scheduled flights don't go ahead. Am I right in thinking some might feel this could apply also to MAN?
Final point about the charters. While BHX is a good choice for places like Stratford-on-Avon and Chatsworth that ATNotts mentions, the latter is also just as convenient for MAN, along with Liverpool, Chester, the Lake District and you could include York and the Yorkshire Dales. MAN appears to have been well focused on business links and inward investment from China but, like Bagso, I do wonder if they have not given enough attention to the potential of inward tourism. If that were the case, it would be a pity, and is evidently an area BHX have capitalised on.
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Something that has not been mentioned re: BHX and Hainan is that until last year these flights simply wouldn't have been considered let alone flown from BHX as it is only the runway extension that has made direct PEK flights possible from BHX. I'm not saying that the extension means that all airlines will now consider MAN and BHX when looking at new UK regional routes but BHX is now an option that wasn't there before, something that MAN seemingly needs to remember.
For what it's worth I think BHX will see continued seasonal charter growth from China but that MAN will be first to secure year round service as it's traditionally much stronger filling the front end than BHX has been,
For what it's worth I think BHX will see continued seasonal charter growth from China but that MAN will be first to secure year round service as it's traditionally much stronger filling the front end than BHX has been,
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MANFOD .
You have to add the massive pull of Warwick Castle which attracts thousands of foreign visitors each year and Cadbury World as well.Naming just two more.
As stated BHX are only charter flights and I don't even know after the Chinese and UK Govts picked MAN for scheduled flights with Hainan, whether such an agreement could be legally undone and swapped with BHX anyway..
Anyone on here that has some knowledge on that subject ?.
If there is any worry for Manchester its that BHX and Birmingham is now being used as a gateway to the UK for Chinese tourists and itineraries for the whole UK starting there.
So if these flights are pretty full both ways it might make it slightly less likely that Hainan wanting to drop Birmingham .
There is though a difference between charter and sched ,in that for charters there is little stress for Hainan, as if the flights are not full its the travel agent that takes the hit and not the airline.
Still at present I would rather be in BHX position rather than Manchesters on this issue.
Nigel
You have to add the massive pull of Warwick Castle which attracts thousands of foreign visitors each year and Cadbury World as well.Naming just two more.
As stated BHX are only charter flights and I don't even know after the Chinese and UK Govts picked MAN for scheduled flights with Hainan, whether such an agreement could be legally undone and swapped with BHX anyway..
Anyone on here that has some knowledge on that subject ?.
If there is any worry for Manchester its that BHX and Birmingham is now being used as a gateway to the UK for Chinese tourists and itineraries for the whole UK starting there.
So if these flights are pretty full both ways it might make it slightly less likely that Hainan wanting to drop Birmingham .
There is though a difference between charter and sched ,in that for charters there is little stress for Hainan, as if the flights are not full its the travel agent that takes the hit and not the airline.
Still at present I would rather be in BHX position rather than Manchesters on this issue.
Nigel
Lol Cadbury's world helps secure PEK link? Really?
I'm not turning this tribal as I'm not a born and bred Manc but I really don't see that. BHX has it's own attributes to attract a PEK service but Cadbury's world isn't one of them.
As for MAN. Well you have to remember that few northerners would consider BHX, they'd probably rather connect elsewhere from MAN than travel to BHX. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the extended runway at BHX either. In the past, it has still struggled to get long haul routes that were possible on the runway. Meanwhile, others have been lost. I.e ORD with AA.
I'm not turning this tribal as I'm not a born and bred Manc but I really don't see that. BHX has it's own attributes to attract a PEK service but Cadbury's world isn't one of them.
As for MAN. Well you have to remember that few northerners would consider BHX, they'd probably rather connect elsewhere from MAN than travel to BHX. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the extended runway at BHX either. In the past, it has still struggled to get long haul routes that were possible on the runway. Meanwhile, others have been lost. I.e ORD with AA.
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First of the long-awaited electric trains start running between Liverpool adn Manchester Airport - Manchester Evening News
faster trains to the Airport from Liverpool, from today. Rail improvements in the North helping Manchester to compete with regional competitor airports.
faster trains to the Airport from Liverpool, from today. Rail improvements in the North helping Manchester to compete with regional competitor airports.
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Returning to the topic of Chinese visitors and Birmingham, I understand that Bicester Village outlet mall is massively popular amongst Chinese tourists. According to some dubious statistics, it ranks second as a visitor attraction to Windsor Castle!
I suppose we have Cheshire Oaks, but Bicester is generally held to be the prime outlet mall in the UK.
I suppose we have Cheshire Oaks, but Bicester is generally held to be the prime outlet mall in the UK.
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Ffs nobody cares about what is and what isn't a tourist attraction, least of all airport managers. If this rubbish continues it can only be a matter of time before some moron suggests Stockport hat museum as a marketable attraction to travel round the globe for. More comment on here about a service to BHX than on that airports own thread. Why don't you immensely dull individuals pm each other and set up some private chat room where you can debate trains and shopping malls until even you get tired if it?
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Oh, sorry to wake you up Turtle controller for you to post one of your abusive rants.
Actually, when airports are discussing potential opportunities for new routes with airlines, I would be very surprised if tourism wasn't one of many topics that were on the agenda.
As regards the BHX charter flights to China, you may have noticed that they are being operated by the airline that was expected to announce scheduled flights from Manchester this summer but which it seems are not now happening. Worth discussing the possible implications for MAN - you obviously think not.
Actually, when airports are discussing potential opportunities for new routes with airlines, I would be very surprised if tourism wasn't one of many topics that were on the agenda.
As regards the BHX charter flights to China, you may have noticed that they are being operated by the airline that was expected to announce scheduled flights from Manchester this summer but which it seems are not now happening. Worth discussing the possible implications for MAN - you obviously think not.
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It's great you non aviation guys want to express yourselves, have your say and demonstrate your knowledge from other tenuously related areas, but it all boils down to petty regional rivalries and a spotter's mentality. BHX and MAN have very rigid charges with MAN being significantly cheaper. Therefore, the only reason these flights are going to BHX is because that is the place deemed to be the best commercially. MAN does not need a "wake up call" or to chase the tour operator. The posts from the BHX regulars are far more informed and balanced btw.
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"I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the runway extension either"
I remember working at BA in the 90's when words to similar effect were used by Senior management at a briefing I attended when the word EasyJet was mentioned.......as I stated in my post the extension does not mean that BHX will now be automatically considered as well as MAN by airlines looking to launch regional UK long haul (I bet CX didn't give BHX even a cursory glance or seriously consider them an an alternative to MAN). However the fact remains that if the same series of Beijing charter flights had been planned 2 or 3 years ago, they would have by default gone to MAN. The BHX runway extension has opened up choice to air lines and that means BHX (for now) has gained a competitive advantage over MAN. A bit like MAN has over BHX with it's EasyJet base!
I remember working at BA in the 90's when words to similar effect were used by Senior management at a briefing I attended when the word EasyJet was mentioned.......as I stated in my post the extension does not mean that BHX will now be automatically considered as well as MAN by airlines looking to launch regional UK long haul (I bet CX didn't give BHX even a cursory glance or seriously consider them an an alternative to MAN). However the fact remains that if the same series of Beijing charter flights had been planned 2 or 3 years ago, they would have by default gone to MAN. The BHX runway extension has opened up choice to air lines and that means BHX (for now) has gained a competitive advantage over MAN. A bit like MAN has over BHX with it's EasyJet base!