SOUTHEND 5
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Here’s the latest rumours from the Swiss side.
They don’t have an operator and having serious issues finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions plus carry PAX, bags and ski’s from the UK.
Talks with Trade Air in Croatia for a F100 broke down, now they’re looking for an A319, but can’t find one. Plus, there’s plenty of nay-saying going on about getting a heavy A319 in or out… Sion has only ever had light A318’s and an empty A319.
Handling charges at Sion are high. Typical turnaround for a Fokker 100 is CHF2,500 excluding landing fee, nav fees, pax charges and de-icing.
Only 2 car rental offices with limited availability
Public transport connections not much shorter than Geneve (Verbier is around 2 hrs)
IFR flights down to 8,000 ft DA require a pilot qualification, under 8,000 a full qualification and training flight to validate qualification which is a significant expense.
+ there’s a potential trademark issue in the pipeline.
They don’t have an operator and having serious issues finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions plus carry PAX, bags and ski’s from the UK.
Talks with Trade Air in Croatia for a F100 broke down, now they’re looking for an A319, but can’t find one. Plus, there’s plenty of nay-saying going on about getting a heavy A319 in or out… Sion has only ever had light A318’s and an empty A319.
Handling charges at Sion are high. Typical turnaround for a Fokker 100 is CHF2,500 excluding landing fee, nav fees, pax charges and de-icing.
Only 2 car rental offices with limited availability
Public transport connections not much shorter than Geneve (Verbier is around 2 hrs)
IFR flights down to 8,000 ft DA require a pilot qualification, under 8,000 a full qualification and training flight to validate qualification which is a significant expense.
+ there’s a potential trademark issue in the pipeline.
I am not surprised there could be issues with the Sion operation. I was thinking of starting a separate thread, but,meanwhile, staying here: -
I don't believe the runway will present a problem for a heavy A319. If there is a problem I suggest it is likely to revolve around the second segment climb requirement (continued take off from engine failure at V1) . Only a type specific run of the performance data would give the answer there. Whether an RNP procedure would improve the situation might be a consideration.
There is now a RNAV/RNP arrival available which uses a better more shallow approach - only 3.6 degrees as opposed to the 6.0 degrees of the IGS. That would require an RNP capable aircraft - certainly possible for an A319 ( though presumably only after a retrofit. ?) Both the RNP and IGS are essentially visual approaches from 5 miles, so limits will be high. One can understand why an ACMI supplier could be getting cold feet.
Then there is the issue of strong easterly winds which may occur in foehn conditions. How will that work ?
Sion actually seems to enjoy a favoured weather location in Switzerland so the situation may not be as bad as made out. But its still the Alps in mid winter. It seems to me there could be a world of difference between occasional one off flights and basing an entire network there. Schedule disruption could be a major issue.
I don't believe the runway will present a problem for a heavy A319. If there is a problem I suggest it is likely to revolve around the second segment climb requirement (continued take off from engine failure at V1) . Only a type specific run of the performance data would give the answer there. Whether an RNP procedure would improve the situation might be a consideration.
There is now a RNAV/RNP arrival available which uses a better more shallow approach - only 3.6 degrees as opposed to the 6.0 degrees of the IGS. That would require an RNP capable aircraft - certainly possible for an A319 ( though presumably only after a retrofit. ?) Both the RNP and IGS are essentially visual approaches from 5 miles, so limits will be high. One can understand why an ACMI supplier could be getting cold feet.
Then there is the issue of strong easterly winds which may occur in foehn conditions. How will that work ?
Sion actually seems to enjoy a favoured weather location in Switzerland so the situation may not be as bad as made out. But its still the Alps in mid winter. It seems to me there could be a world of difference between occasional one off flights and basing an entire network there. Schedule disruption could be a major issue.
Last edited by Tagron; 16th May 2017 at 16:15. Reason: Various minor changes
flight mode
While your "latest rumours from the Swiss side" may or may not prove to have substance, Swiss operated LHR-SIR last winter and will do so again in February 2018 using Helvetic ERJ190 aircraft but you didn't mention this.
It is a category C airfield but as it would be Powdair's primary airport I don't see crew certification/validation being a major problem.
The Powdair website now says tickets will go on sale on 6th June and their comment ".... wait until you see why (there has been a delay in this happening)" doesn't suggest the sort of problems you mentioned are the reason for the delay.
While your "latest rumours from the Swiss side" may or may not prove to have substance, Swiss operated LHR-SIR last winter and will do so again in February 2018 using Helvetic ERJ190 aircraft but you didn't mention this.
It is a category C airfield but as it would be Powdair's primary airport I don't see crew certification/validation being a major problem.
The Powdair website now says tickets will go on sale on 6th June and their comment ".... wait until you see why (there has been a delay in this happening)" doesn't suggest the sort of problems you mentioned are the reason for the delay.
flite mode
I just thought it would have been worth pointing out that a widely used, broadly similar, aircraft operates schedules into SIR so it shouldn't prove impossible for Powdair to find a suitable ACMI operator. You did suggest they seem to be "having serious issues in finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions (at SIR)." I don't really see why that should be the case.
I just thought it would have been worth pointing out that a widely used, broadly similar, aircraft operates schedules into SIR so it shouldn't prove impossible for Powdair to find a suitable ACMI operator. You did suggest they seem to be "having serious issues in finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions (at SIR)." I don't really see why that should be the case.
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Flite Mode be aware
flite mode
I just thought it would have been worth pointing out that a widely used, broadly similar, aircraft operates schedules into SIR so it shouldn't prove impossible for Powdair to find a suitable ACMI operator. You did suggest they seem to be "having serious issues in finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions (at SIR)." I don't really see why that should be the case.
I just thought it would have been worth pointing out that a widely used, broadly similar, aircraft operates schedules into SIR so it shouldn't prove impossible for Powdair to find a suitable ACMI operator. You did suggest they seem to be "having serious issues in finding one that has the equipment that can handle the approach and climb restrictions (at SIR)." I don't really see why that should be the case.
Let's see if the flights materialise.
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I don't think there's a single AOC holder in Europe with an EJ or A319 waiting on the ground for complex, off base ACMI work*. They'll find 146/RJs but attached to a willing operator is another question. Whoever takes on the work will want 10s, if not 100s of thousands £s upfront.
If It does work for these guys hats off to them but BACF, Cityjet, Swiss or Lufty will be all over them next season.
-- nothing pro or contra SEN.
* calling it ACMI is a understatement. It's full blown airline ops. powdair will only sell tickets.
If It does work for these guys hats off to them but BACF, Cityjet, Swiss or Lufty will be all over them next season.
-- nothing pro or contra SEN.
* calling it ACMI is a understatement. It's full blown airline ops. powdair will only sell tickets.
Last edited by flight_mode; 16th May 2017 at 20:25.
flight_mode - Your final comment is interesting, surely they have some sort of management/operations structure ?
As will be seen I have started a new PowdAir thread. One reason is that it is far more than a SEN issue. SEN is only a minor player with just two flights per week planned. Hopefully it will be able to draw in a wider breadth of knowledge if posters choose to use it instead of their individual airport thread.
Hopefully it will also avoid unwarranted personal attacks.
As will be seen I have started a new PowdAir thread. One reason is that it is far more than a SEN issue. SEN is only a minor player with just two flights per week planned. Hopefully it will be able to draw in a wider breadth of knowledge if posters choose to use it instead of their individual airport thread.
Hopefully it will also avoid unwarranted personal attacks.
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I'll certainly add Tagron's PowdAir thread to my list.
Of course it's more than a SEN issue. But any new operator - how long since the last? - is a big deal for this airport; I suspect that's not the case for the others.
Of course it's more than a SEN issue. But any new operator - how long since the last? - is a big deal for this airport; I suspect that's not the case for the others.
asdf12134
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
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asdf12134
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
In this case flight mode was doubting the ability to run an overall successful operation from Sion. However, the exclusion of the fact that Swiss ran a scheduled winter operation to and from the airport is of course highly relevant in rebuking your arguement.
I struggle to see a) why this point is not understood/seen as relevant by flight mode, and b) why expressflight should be criticised for making it.
Just a reminder that this is a discussion forum where all points and input are surely welcome, whether you agree with them or not is a different matter. To make assumptions and challenge motivations for people's input is definitely not welcome, well not by me anyway!
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Happy to withdraw
asdf12134
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
I'm afraid you're wide of the mark with your interpretation of my post but if it came across as proving me "a diehard defender of all things SEN" then I'll clarify it.
I would have posted those thoughts anywhere on PPRuNe where flight_mode had posted his "rumours" as I thought they suggested negativity as to the professionalism and competence of the Powdair Airline project. It is because of my involvement with start-ups over the years that I try to put such unsubstantiated statements in perspective. This I tried to do to add a bit of balance to the discussion. I am not involved with the Powdair project by the way.
I certainly am a diehard supporter of SEN while also being it's strongest critic, but I make my criticisms known where they may have some effect and not on a public forum. I'm sure that you will withdraw your remark that I "may even be an unofficial promoter of the owner of the airport" when I categorically assure you that I am not.
Apologies for the thread drift but I felt I needed to make my situation clear to all.
Let's move on.