Barcelona-Madrid
Barcelona-Madrid
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
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I'd be interested to know how the numbers have fared since the opening of the HS train. Hard to compete with the experience of Atocha to Sants in 2h 30.
For a start, not all AVEs are 2h30, some go via Zaragoza, adding 15 mins, others have additional stops. Secondly, the first fast arrival into Madrid doesn't get you there until 09:30 - not much good for a morning meeting.
Then you have a frequency that makes you wonder why we have stuffed our own case for HS2 up so badly - a 3 hour mid morning gap, compared to the 18 trains per hour we're supposed to be having!
You are also assuming a city centre to city centre journey, which is often not the case, especially for leisure trips.
Finally, as we always hear on the "why was this route axed", I've heard claims of 98% LF on this route, and therefore prices can often be quite high.
I took it in '08, paid just under €100, booked couple of days before. Might well be cheaper flights than that, especially as the plane is virtually turn up and go.
When you only have 150 seats to fill, and can move craft around more easily on different routes, hardly surprising to see this route still quite busy, although less so than pre-AVE days, as would be expected.
To Jabird
You should refresh your information (see www.renfe.com).
The first AVE arrives in Barcelona at 08.55. There is no "mid morning gap". You have at least a train every hour, quite often more than that.
And although all the trains are not running in 2.30 hours, unfortunately for our industry, it is still much lower travel time than plane: with the train, you can arrive at the station 10 minutes before departure when due to security checks at airports, you will likely miss your flight if you do not arrive 1 to 1.5 hours before at peak times.
You should refresh your information (see www.renfe.com).
The first AVE arrives in Barcelona at 08.55. There is no "mid morning gap". You have at least a train every hour, quite often more than that.
And although all the trains are not running in 2.30 hours, unfortunately for our industry, it is still much lower travel time than plane: with the train, you can arrive at the station 10 minutes before departure when due to security checks at airports, you will likely miss your flight if you do not arrive 1 to 1.5 hours before at peak times.
I'd be interested to know how the numbers have fared since the opening of the HS train. Hard to compete with the experience of Atocha to Sants in 2h 30.
Same with Madrid - Malaga. In 2007 1.54m pax flew with 164 weekly flights. By 2009 it was down to 770,000 on 64 weekly flights. In 2012 403,000 pax flew.
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To Jabird
You should refresh your information (see Renfe).
The first AVE arrives in Barcelona at 08.55
You should refresh your information (see Renfe).
The first AVE arrives in Barcelona at 08.55
I quoted BCN > MAD, not the other way round. I used bahn.com as always, because it gives me Europe wide info, rather than having to go to lots of places, but no reason to think they are wrong.
There is a gap from 10:00 to 13:00 in this direction.
As I said, the AVE has clearly made a serious dent, but it has not swept up the whole market, as many advocates might have expected it to do.
You still have to turn up in reasonable time, as you still have to go through a brief security check, but it is nothing like as arduous as at airports (afaik still the case).
Join Date: Aug 2006
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The Virtual, why do you ask this question? Your country seems to have got left behind the high speed rail development, but if this project (Northeast Corridor) becomes reality, there is no need to bet who will be the winner. Simply because the new line would reduce the travel time from New York to Washington to 96 minutes (including a stop in Philadelphia) and from Boston to New York to 84 minutes.
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if this project (Northeast Corridor) becomes reality, there is no need to bet who will be the winner. Simply because the new line would reduce the travel time from New York to Washington to 96 minutes (including a stop in Philadelphia) and from Boston to New York to 84 minutes.
Therefore, your own statement poses a big if for starters, and if you are right in your if, namely it (a) gets approval and (b) opens as per plans and for the full route, you will still have many of the challenges outlined above.
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^^ True. However, the United States' retardation (or maybe better just to say the slower development in this field) could be fortunate for them, if the new technology proves successful. Even the Japanese, being perceived as the leaders, have decided to give Maglev a try. That has also been a source of inspiration for the Americans, as you can read here.
To Jabird
It is the same for the way BCN to MAD: first train arriving in Madrid at 08.20. No gap at all between 10.00 to 13.00: during this interval, you have a train every hour.
For the security check, I can confirm that if you arrive at the station 10 minutes before the departure time, you will get your train.
And once more, I regret that the AVE is so convenient as it has a lot of consequences on our industry.
For the security check, I can confirm that if you arrive at the station 10 minutes before the departure time, you will get your train.
And once more, I regret that the AVE is so convenient as it has a lot of consequences on our industry.
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It is the same for the way BCN to MAD: first train arriving in Madrid at 08.20.
https://venta.renfe.com/vol/buscarTren.do#
Let's say this is a temporary glitch. 8:20 into Atocha isn't bad for the rest of Madrid, and those winter gardens are amazing!
As for the wider question:
And once more, I regret that the AVE is so convenient as it has a lot of consequences on our industry.
I'd argue that HSR will win on routes where it can offer speed and frequency, but to get the lion's share of the market, it will also need to do so at an attractive price.
Even without dedicated HSR lines, the train has already practically cleaned up the London <> Northern England market. So there's lots of additional issues beyond just the speed, including APD, PSCs and other costs like getting to / parking at the airport.
Yet even where all the cards are stacked in HSR's favour - like Paris <> Lyon, some still fly, with multiple daily CDG and ORY to LYS services, even though both CDG and LYS have TGV stations.
A lot of the time, HSR can feed long haul flights too, and is a squeeze through stuffy terminals for a short hop really the best thing aviation can offer to passengers?
The legacies have already dealt with the LCAs on short haul routes, retreated on a lot of regionals, but grown in other markets.
Expect the same with HSR if, and it is still a big if, it ever comes to the UK for serious inter city domestic services.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
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so this decline in BCN MAD traffic should mean that Dublin London is the busiest route (I realise it is in effect 6 routes, but as a market, the Dublin/ London air corridor), in Europe ...? I was renown since eurostar opening for being the busiest international route in EU but BCN MAD was busier in terms of passenger numbers...
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I was renown since eurostar opening for being the busiest international route in EU but BCN MAD was busier in terms of passenger numbers...
International might not include intra-Schengen, although BCN-MAD is outright domestic.
BCN-MAD is single airport at each end - no MAD - GRO, even if we do count that.
LON-DUB is an extremely broad market, with multiple dailies from so many different airports, including SEN now.
One thing for sure - they won't be building a tunnel under the Irish Sea anytime soon, even though it has been proposed!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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By 2020 just over 90% of Spain's population will be within 32 miles (48.6km) of a high speed train station so quite a threat to internal air.
Not having a tunnel under the Irish sea wouldn't worry me as much as the future possibility of having only airline serve the island of Ireland.
In passing it would be interesting to contemplate the effects of linking some of fast growing airports in the Middle East by high speed rail.
Not having a tunnel under the Irish sea wouldn't worry me as much as the future possibility of having only airline serve the island of Ireland.
In passing it would be interesting to contemplate the effects of linking some of fast growing airports in the Middle East by high speed rail.
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I went to BCN from MAD using AVE in march and was simply impressed. it was one of the Talgo trains. Perfectly on time, 2hr45 mn. extremely comfortable and cheap....I booked well ahead.
Much easier than taking the plane.
Much easier than taking the plane.
