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Old 5th Oct 2012, 08:12   #1 (permalink)
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Alitalia

Had a look through the threads without finding anything.

What is happening now with regard to the airlines finances as it seems to have gone off the radar ?
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Old 9th Oct 2012, 19:13   #2 (permalink)
 
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Quiet, isn't it.
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 07:34   #3 (permalink)
 
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Alitalia on verge of bankruptcy: report - Yahoo! News UK

It all comes round again .....
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Old 22nd Dec 2012, 19:28   #4 (permalink)
 
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Excerpt from the earlier thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eu01 View Post
Just before the miraculous birth of the "new" Alitalia (at the end of 2008):
Quote:
Alitalia has debts amounting to 2.3 billion euros.
What's changed in 2010?
The new, smaller Alitalia is still losing almost €1 million a day (net loss of 326 million € as announced in the 2009 12 month result), the break-even target being postponed again. Not my business, perhaps. I just wonder where from all this money required to keep AZ afloat keeps pouring in?
And the latest report:
Quote:
Alitalia is once more on the verge of bankruptcy as it loses 630,000 euros ($832,000) a day in addition to the 730 million euro deficit accumulated over four years under private ownership, the Repubblica daily said Friday.
So, let's count: some 2,300,000,000 euros forgiven by Berlusconi + 730,000,000 deficit accumulated over recent years adds up to over 3 billions EUR. The debt keeps growing, the Italian debt growing as well. The (small?) part of the mysterious silence around so-called "new" Alitalia finally broken, so my old question is here again: who will pay the final bill for all these nationalistic frills of Mr. Berlusconi and other politicians materialized by the very existence of chronically inefficient "national" carrier?
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 17:44   #5 (permalink)
 
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Is AZ going down the SR and (former) SN route (i.e. re-emerging in a different format after bankruptcy), or down the MA route (dies with no resurrection)?
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 15:54   #6 (permalink)
 
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Well, it's already taken the first option once ....
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Old 10th Oct 2013, 15:55   #7 (permalink)
 
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Alitalia Flies on Fumes Into Familiar Financial Turbulence - Businessweek
Italy races to save Alitalia as creditors circle | Reuters
Alitalia Capital Needs Explode as Specter of Collapse Looms (1) - Businessweek

Anything new this time around ? Money likely to be (once again) found from somewhere and Alitalia carries of flying ?
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Old 10th Oct 2013, 16:49   #8 (permalink)
 
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Let's live the nationalism! If you did associate this issue with Berlusconi alone, you were wrong. Berlusconi has privatized Alitalia and nationalized its debts (look at the source of money for so called "Bad Company"). Now Berlusconi happens to be stripped of power, but the opera buffa's continuation is still defined as a top priority. The "new" Alitalia had to be different and it's a private enterprise now, but it doesn't matter, the carrier will most probably be injected public money again. New bank loans will be guaranteed, while the Italian government, itself cash-strapped, will do everything to persuade some Italian companies to provide even more funding. Even Ferrovie dello Stato, the state railways, will give Alitalia money to obfuscate any direct help. Most probably the Italian post will be obliged to do the same. Just to save the airline and to keep it Italian. The farce is set to continue.
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Old 10th Oct 2013, 18:11   #9 (permalink)
 
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I had a very attentive and pleasant Alitalia crew on a flight from Brindisi to Rome a couple of weeks ago. Nicely turned out A320 with leather seats in economy class. Very pleasant experience all round.

Just saying.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 00:53   #10 (permalink)
 
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Phew - what a relief
450m euros of cash has been found to bail out privately owned Alitalia, including 100m euros from the state owned Italian post office after the head of the post office was invited to meet the prime minister earlier today. But don't worry - the post office is deemed a commercial company and it's not EU state aid at all - no need for Easyjet or Ryanair to query this through the courts.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 08:34   #11 (permalink)
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The competitor's CEO O'Leary just came to my mind... Right now he might prefer not to comment on these Alitalia issues due to his own PR problems, but I think I know his opinion. This time I would possibly agree.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 11:50   #12 (permalink)
 
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If Brussels is all powerful (which if you believe the UK press they most certainly are) you have to ask why they haven't stamped hard on the Italian government's never ending efforts to circumvent the state aid regulations where Alitalia are concerned.

It makes a total mockery of a free and fair market and competition.

Alitalia has been a basket case since I was in short trousers, and should have been liquidated decades ago.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 12:49   #13 (permalink)
 
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Last time around the Italian Government forced a shot-gun marriage between Alitalia and AirOne which, at that time, was profitable. Hasn't taken long for the old Alitalia contagion to infect the whole orgainism.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 12:57   #14 (permalink)
 
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Tempting...

State aid complaint form ? European Commission
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 13:05   #15 (permalink)


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I used to fly a lot on Alitalia, about 30 years ago, between Africa and Europe, within Europe, and to and from South America, because I was friendly with someone in their office and I got free tickets whenever and wherever and as often as I wanted. Admittedly most of the flights were less than half full, but that's hardly an argument to justify giving free tickets.

The standard of service on board varied from abysmal to mediocre, although the food was usually very good. Considering how many beautiful stylish women there are in Italy, it always amazed me how many old dogs they used to find as cabin crew.

The planes were often tatty and dirty, and they used the horrible DC10s and DC8-63s (I think) on some routes and a very mixed fleet on short haul. They lost or damaged my luggage more times than I care to remember, and whenever I mentioned that I knew 'so and so' my claim was processed generously and without any discussion.

I remember one particularly atrocious and heavy landing at Nairobi where we bounced about 8 times, the overhead bins flew open, people were screaming, and I'm certainly no aviation engineer but I would have thought that some fairly through checks for damage would have been done. We were airborne again within 45 minutes so ......... however that's only speculation on my part but I was not very reassured over their safety.

Then there's their main hub airport, Fiumicino .......... what a badly designed dysfunctional badly run dump, in those days even CDG was better, in fact I think Sheremetyevo was better too.

If ever an airline deserved to be allowed to fail, it's that one, seems nothing has changed. It was jobs for the boys, old school tie network.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 15:12   #16 (permalink)
 
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My team - Joaquín Almunia - European Commission

I sent them an email today to the EU Commission asking why press reports indicated the money from the Italian post office (100% owned by the Italian state) to be used to buy new shares in Alitalia would in principle be approved.

To give Brussels credit, I got an answer back within 2 hours, saying that the Italian Govt had not yet notified the EU Commission of the proposed transaction, so for the time being the Commission has to just wait to be told the formal details. The email reply also indicated that once notified, the Commission will then take a look at it.

Just for good measure, I also filed a formal complaint to the EU Commission regarding EU state aid and have a record of receipt from the Commission - makes it that little bit harder for Brussels to ignore as they now have to give me a formal response. If you have an opinion as to whether or not this is state aid, I would encourage others to communicate this to Brussels as well - if you have some basic knowledge of air transport economics, the process is fairly simple.

It is certainly possible that some deal will be done between politicians at a high level to whitewash the whole thing, but the various people in Brussels did at least respond promptly to my enquiry.

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 11th Oct 2013 at 15:18.
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 17:50   #17 (permalink)
 
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davidjohnson6
Quote:
To give Brussels credit, I got an answer back within 2 hours, saying that the Italian Govt had not yet notified the EU Commission of the proposed transaction, so for the time being the Commission has to just wait to be told the formal details. The email reply also indicated that once notified, the Commission will then take a look at it.

Just for good measure, I also filed a formal complaint to the EU Commission regarding EU state aid and have a record of receipt from the Commission - makes it that little bit harder for Brussels to ignore as they now have to give me a formal response. If you have an opinion as to whether or not this is state aid, I would encourage others to communicate this to Brussels as well - if you have some basic knowledge of air transport economics, the process is fairly simple.

It is certainly possible that some deal will be done between politicians at a high level to whitewash the whole thing, but the various people in Brussels did at least respond promptly to my enquiry.
Full approval!
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Old 11th Oct 2013, 17:54   #18 (permalink)
 
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Only a matter of time before Italian state runs out of number of companies that it can use to pump money in...........

Given 24 million pax numbers in 2012 that is €20 per passenger this time.

Doubt it will be long before they back again.
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Old 12th Oct 2013, 09:20   #19 (permalink)
 
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David

I admire your conviction but I don't think the EU will do anything, it's happened before...

BBC NEWS | Business | EU to probe Alitalia 'state aid'

Alitalia must be the worse run business in the world. I mean business in the loosest of terms.
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Old 12th Oct 2013, 09:27   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eu01 View Post
(last year)
So, let's count: some 2,300,000,000 euros forgiven by Berlusconi + 730,000,000 deficit accumulated over recent years adds up to over 3 billions EUR. The debt keeps growing.
Let's count again. Or, why bother. Today.it has already done the calculation for us.
"Alitalia (Cai) has costed [the taxpayers] already 4 billions in four years.
Every day the company burns 1.6 million of euros“

Well then. Now when all that money is gone, how to continue without formally breaking any of the EU competition / state aid rules? An Italian recipe is foolproof and simple:
1. The state airline is on verge of bankruptcy? Pay its debts, privatize.
(four years gone, money disappeared)
2. The private "national" airline is on verge of bankruptcy again? Tell some state enterprises to buy it back from its private owners (re-nationalize), guarantee bank loans, burn more money
(a few years gone)
3. Still near bankruptcy? Da capo al fine: pay debts, privatize once more.

Last edited by eu01; 12th Oct 2013 at 09:27.
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