New Thames Airport for London

[Mr Optimistic]

Don't mention Thurleigh and Little Staughton for gawds sake. I live there ! No hope for Luton ?

[FlyingEagle21]

So I assume the new Airport would replace LHR?

I do think the airport would be the wrong side of London and just a bit too far from Central London.

LHR is in the wrong place but at the same time in a great place for business with access to the Thames Valley corridor and West London.

Also what will happen to the 80,000 workers who live this side of London and the thousands more workers in industries that will be affected by the eventual closure of LHR if this goes ahead?

[silverstrata]

Heathrow Director:
<<Likewise the approach spacing of 1.5nm>>
Novel, but nonsense.

Gatwick have special permission from the CAA to run 'reduced wake vortex separation minima' of 2.5nm (and I have heard of less than that).
But certainly in regard to arriving/departing aircraft, that reduces to 1.5nm. Many is the time I have landed while the departing is still on the runway (a 'land after' clearance). Or indeed, the landing aircraft in front is still on the runway.

N Thomas:
Silverstrata you may well be able to fly a plane but since when has that made you an expert on planning, civil engineering and architectural matters. Have you studied Lord Foster's proposals in detail. The newish Hong Kong airport designed by Foster has it's terminal at one end and works well.

If you want a meaningful discussion on a new London Airport I suggest you would be wise not to alienate the very people who can contribute something to the debate.

I see nothing at the end of Lap Kok runways, for overrunning aircraft to run into.

And while being nice to everyone is very New Labour, it gets nothing done. Why do you think that no UK infrastructure was built over the last decade, while China has built 40 cities the size of Birmingham? (Even if some of them remain empty.)
This is a city built for a million people - but no one lives here | Mail Online

Aero Mad:
My solution:
Heathrow - long/medium-haul flights only.
Gatwick - short/medium-haul flights only.
Manston - overflow.

Ok.... American businessman in Heathrow, short-haul connection in Gatwick, bags at Manston. Brilliant. With thinking like that, the future of Schiphol is assured.



.

[Facelookbovvered]

Why not move it further out and South East, say just to the East of Paris??

LGW ATC best in the world? er no, their good and make good use of single runway ops, but not a patch on Malaga who likewise for a single runway (for now) can really pack them in, no where else in the world can get close to simultaneous approaches on opposite ends of the same runway

[Capetonian]

Now you're gonna laugh at me, but this is where my other scheme comes in... do what BAA did in the 1980s and run a regular helicopter shuttle between the three airports.

Err, yes! The capacity of even a large helicopter is ..........?

[silverstrata]

Flying eagle:
So I assume the new Airport would replace LHR?

I do think the airport would be the wrong side of London and just a bit too far from Central London. LHR is in the wrong place but at the same time in a great place for business with access to the Thames Valley corridor and West London.

Also what will happen to the 80,000 workers who live this side of London and the thousands more workers in industries that will be affected by the eventual closure of LHR if this goes ahead?

Yes, it would replace LHR.

Passengers from the Thames airport would access the Thames valley corridor by Cross-rail. The M25 is more problematic, because of capacity restrictions. I did tell planners back in the late 1970s that the M25 needed 6 lanes a side, but again they thought they knew better.

The old LHR will become a boom-town, as it is re-designated as the largest industrial park and housing estate in the S.E. So not all the workers will need to relocate, there will be plenty of jobs around Heathrow. The money from this new estate, is what will pay for Boris Island and the Thames airport infrastructure.

Aviation workers will need to relocate, of course, and new-towns will need to be constructed in Kent and Essex to house them - with rapid transit links via the new rail system to the island, from car parks and bus terminals to the north and south. This is a 10 - 15 year project. The most difficult period will be the switchover, but many large corporations have moved their head office without too much difficulty.


.

[silverstrata]

Facelook:

Why not move it further out and South East, say just to the East of Paris??

That, my dear Facelook, is the entire problem in a nutshell.
The trouble is, all the businesses, all the jobs, and all the money, relocate to Paris too. Now while New Labour tried to destroy Britain by fancy political footwork like this, it is my desire to preserve the ancestral lands. Because they are worth it....

Facelook:

LGW ATC best in the world? er no, their good and make good use of single runway ops, but not a patch on Malaga who likewise for a single runway (for now) can really pack them in, no where else in the world can get close to simultaneous approaches on opposite ends of the same runway

Err, you do jest, surely. Or are you on medication?

Gatwick movements 2010 - 240,000
Malaga movements 2010 - 105,000

That makes Gatwick nearly 2 1/2 times busier than Malaga. And if you had ever operated from there, you would not question those statistics or the efficiency of the operation.


.

[Nick Thomas]

Silverstrata
Why oh why do you think that you have all the answers concerning a new airport. Discussing it with people who have experience in this kind of work is common sense and has nothing to do with New Labour. Comparing China's building programme with our's is a red herring. They are in a completely different development phase to us. Also we have a thing called democracy and large projects rightly are very closely scrutinized. It's one way of ensuring that people who know little about the real issues don't ruin our environment.
Maybe you ought to ring up Norman and tell him where he has gone wrong am sure he will be glad of your help.
Am beginning to think it's you that are brain dead an insult you are quite willing to freely throw about.
I would take your comments more seriously if you could base them on some real evidence. Have you ever been involved in designing and procuring large civil engineering and Architectural projects? I some how doubt it

[Piltdown Man]

There will be no new airport. I'd don't think any financial institution would stump up enough cash to pay for it unless it was 120% or more underwritten by UK taxpayers with guaranteed future returns. Banks will only invest if there is no risk and a return within five years. And as the government doesn't have enough (of my) cash, it won't make these assurances and fortunately the days of Blair are well gone. So it won't be happening. But fortunately the public toilet called Heathrow will continue to soldier on and provide me with a living.

PM

[Ranger 1]

As someone who has been involved with Bird Hazard Control for over 20 years, upon reading this thread my initial thoughts were to launch head long into a lecture on the subject, however it's pleasing to see Birdstrike concerns have been raised quite clearly already.

For the Ornithologists amongst you here is a website of interest

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/details....d=tcm:9-203710

Ranger 1

[Facelookbovvered]

Silverstrata

T'was all in jest........and yes i have and do operate into both, LGW ATC are excellent, AGP (controller on the job monitoring) less so!! will be interesting to see how they go on when the 10 or11 runway opens next year!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Gatwick have special permission from the CAA to run 'reduced wake vortex separation minima' of 2.5nm (and I have heard of less than that).
But certainly in regard to arriving/departing aircraft, that reduces to 1.5nm. >>

Heathrow can also employ 2.5nm spacing. I know - I did it for many years. I have never seen less than 2.5nm and I do not believe that it is authorised anywhere in the UK. I don't know what you mean by the second sentence above..?? The final approach spacing would never intentionally be reduced to 1.5nm or the go-around rate would be enormous. Under normal wind conditions 5-6nm is needed to get departures away in the gaps. In very strong wind this can be reduced slightly..

[silverstrata]

N Thomas:
Comparing China's building programme with our's is a red herring. They are in a completely different development phase to us. Also we have a thing called democracy and large projects rightly are very closely scrutinized.

"China in a Different Development Phase".
Ah yes, I remember this - it was a New Labour buzzphrase for: "we are incapable of making a difficult decision". And with certain ministers it also implied: "we agree with the Greens that we should all go back to the Dark Ages and mud huts".

Just what the hell was the purpose of spending 10 years and £250 million on various public enquiries, when everyone knew Terminal 5 would be built anyway? A classic case of kicking a difficult decision into the long grass - almost on a par with the absurd Bloody Sunday enquiry. So T5 took 13 years to build, while China built a much larger new Beijing terminal in 2 years.

Do you think, in your heart of hearts, that the UK can maintain our standard of living and quality of life, if every tiny infrastructure project takes 13 years to build? To politicians everywhere - Rediscover your b*lls, and make a decision.


Shenzhen by night:



Dalian by night:



Chongqing by night:


etc: etc: etc: (x50)


Oh, and Birmingham by night:



Enough said, I think.

(this) has nothing to do with New Labour.

This has everything to do with New Labour.

Instead of wasting ten years doing nothing and £trillions on social engineering projects, New Labour should have been building projects like this new Thames Airport.

Where is the New Labour high speed rail network?
Where is the New Labour motorway network?
Where are the New Labour sea ports?
Where are the New Labour airports?
Where is the New Labour space agency?
Where are the New Labour nuclear power stations?
Where are any New Labour power stations?
Where is the New Labour electrical distribution network?
Where is the New Labour Thames sewer system (which is urgently needed)?

A nation does not move forward by standing still - it actually goes backwards. This is what destroyed the old USSR, which had not updated its major infrastructure for 50 years, and eventually fell apart.

Now I know that is what New Labour wanted for the UK, to undermine the fabric of the nation for Marxist ideological reasons, but it is not what the people of this country want.

As someone who has been involved with Bird Hazard Control for over 20 years, upon reading this thread my initial thoughts were to launch head long into a lecture on the subject, however it's pleasing to see Birdstrike concerns have been raised quite clearly already.

The airport is not going to be in the 'Thames estuary environment', it is going to be 'in the North Sea environment'.

Give us some details about the number of birds in the 'middle of the North Sea', between Shoeburyness and Sheerness.

Facelook:

T'was all in jest........and yes i have and do operate into both, LGW ATC are excellent, AGP (controller on the job monitoring) less so!!

Then you need to attach a /sarc tag - and I apologise. But honestly, judging by some of the defeatist comment we see here, I did think you were serious.

As an aside - I do wonder what the hell is going on when the controllers are 'on the job'. I always imagine the tower all steamed up and swaying side to side slightly.


.


.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Apart from birds migrating from shore to shore, which can be dealt with, there should be no greater bird threat on an isolated island, than at Heathrow. >>

Hmmm.. I was on watch early one morning when we had a record 210 bird strikes in 5 minutes and both runways had to be closed!

[TURIN]

I take it you will be moving to China in the near future then?

I'm sure your quality of life will improve dramatically when your entire village is bulldozed without so much as a 'by-your-leave' to make way for the next big development that no one will use.



Anyway, back to the thread...

Only one runway has been built in the UK since the war, If the highspeed rail link lives up to expectations then MAN will become your overspill for leisure travellers leaving LHR and LGW to cope with the business traveller. As everyone knows there are no businesses in the rest of the country........



Tin hat on.

[spekesoftly]

Only one runway has been built in the UK since the war ......

Most of Heathrow's hard surface runways were constructed immediately post WWII.

Gatwick 1950s

East Midlands, Newcastle, Luton and Liverpool 1960s

Edinburgh 1970s

London City 1980s

Sheffield City 1997 (Closed 2008)

Manchester 2001

[fireflybob]

Note: Only Ryanair dares fly through a 'starling murmuration', as they are known:

silverstrata, that statement is a distortion of the facts.

The crew observed a murmuration on short final and elected to GoAround (follow Boeing and Company SOPs at the time) - during this maneuver the aircraft sustained multiple bird strikes and the engines suffered major loss of thrust and the GoAround was abandoned for a crash landing on the runway.

[silverstrata]

Out of trim:

The place would be frequently Fog Bound....

Errrm, you mean like LHR today?

Remember that LHR's fog problem today is due low-vis procedures and its limited capacity (operating at max even on a good day).

If this were the Thames Airport, in similar conditions, it would be able to handle all flights. (Did not see this morning's RVRs at LHR, but BRU was around 250m)


.

[silverstrata]

Firefly:

The crew observed a murmuration on short final and elected to GoAround (follow Boeing and Company SOPs at the time) - during this maneuver the aircraft sustained multiple bird strikes and the engines suffered major loss of thrust and the GoAround was abandoned for a crash landing on the runway.

Sorry, did I forget the /sarc tag?

Spekesoftly:

Gatwick 1950s

East Midlands, Newcastle, Luton and Liverpool 1960s

Edinburgh 1970s

London City 1980s

Sheffield City 1997 (Closed 2008)

Manchester 2001

Yep - and you do much the same with new aircraft or new inventions.
As I said previously, going backwards....


.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Remember that LHR's fog problem today is due low-vis procedures>>

An interesting statement. I'm sure many on here would be glad if you would elaborate, please.