Virgin Atlantic
Willie Walsh has told a conference in Switzerland that he would be interested in Virgin, but only for its LHR slots. He was disparaging about airline brands owned by a 'personality'.
I wonder if VS has a post-Branson future, or would it become a part of Delta, Etihad or whoever?
I wonder if VS has a post-Branson future, or would it become a part of Delta, Etihad or whoever?
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Although in fairness (I was there, as perhaps were you), I thought the specific target of his disparaging comments was easyJet/Stelios rather than Virgin/Branson.
There is a very interesting article in Flight this week, also avaialable on their website about Virgin being insistent on keeping its brand are restructuring.
Virgin Atlantic to retain Virgin brand after strategic review
All very interesting. I have heard it suggested that one reason why Virgin is a marginally profitable airline (as Singapore airlines knows too well) but Branson is a billionaire is that VS pays Virgin Management a small fortune for its brand and other services. If VS keeps its brand the franchise agreement will doubtless give Branson significant control over its running.
This gives rise to the question that whilst VS would undoubtably be worth acquiring not just for its slots but also its route structure and assets, would you wish to include its brand and the services of the Virgin Group?
It is undoubtably a safe airline, its pilots can fly, maintenance is fine, etc - all of the things that are regulated - but talking to some recent flyers and looking at sites on the web (OK a few flyers and we can all discuss the reliability of sites such as Skytrax but lets not right now) VS's quality of customer care is slipping. Thats not somehing that can't be turned around - many an airline has gone through a poor patch and emerged stronger (BA in the late 70s for a start) but if I were a CEO I'm not sure that I would want to keep the brand.
Rumours are that the three alliances aren't to keen for VS to join, at lease on RB's terms.
VS is 49% owned by SQ which has a very strong brand. Much as BA would like VS for its slots there would be obvious questions about competition. Lets say that LH purcahsed all of VS or just RB's 51%. The combination of LH group airlines (BD, VS, LH, LX, OS etc) at LHR would be formidable particularly with BD opening more medium haul routes.
This raises an interesting question branding. Lufthansa UK is a possibility - the same has happened in Italy - as is BMI but here's a long shot. Say SQ still owns 49% (which could yet be very lucrative), how about Singapore (UK) with the UK in a very small font. Leaving aside how oriental VS's flight attendents look Singapore Airlines is a very strong brand.
Any views on what I have said welcome (but please be polite if you think that I have written utter rubbish).
Virgin Atlantic to retain Virgin brand after strategic review
All very interesting. I have heard it suggested that one reason why Virgin is a marginally profitable airline (as Singapore airlines knows too well) but Branson is a billionaire is that VS pays Virgin Management a small fortune for its brand and other services. If VS keeps its brand the franchise agreement will doubtless give Branson significant control over its running.
This gives rise to the question that whilst VS would undoubtably be worth acquiring not just for its slots but also its route structure and assets, would you wish to include its brand and the services of the Virgin Group?
It is undoubtably a safe airline, its pilots can fly, maintenance is fine, etc - all of the things that are regulated - but talking to some recent flyers and looking at sites on the web (OK a few flyers and we can all discuss the reliability of sites such as Skytrax but lets not right now) VS's quality of customer care is slipping. Thats not somehing that can't be turned around - many an airline has gone through a poor patch and emerged stronger (BA in the late 70s for a start) but if I were a CEO I'm not sure that I would want to keep the brand.
Rumours are that the three alliances aren't to keen for VS to join, at lease on RB's terms.
VS is 49% owned by SQ which has a very strong brand. Much as BA would like VS for its slots there would be obvious questions about competition. Lets say that LH purcahsed all of VS or just RB's 51%. The combination of LH group airlines (BD, VS, LH, LX, OS etc) at LHR would be formidable particularly with BD opening more medium haul routes.
This raises an interesting question branding. Lufthansa UK is a possibility - the same has happened in Italy - as is BMI but here's a long shot. Say SQ still owns 49% (which could yet be very lucrative), how about Singapore (UK) with the UK in a very small font. Leaving aside how oriental VS's flight attendents look Singapore Airlines is a very strong brand.
Any views on what I have said welcome (but please be polite if you think that I have written utter rubbish).
Last edited by Peter47; 3rd Mar 2011 at 13:33. Reason: Spelling (as usual)
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This raises an interesting question branding. Lufthansa UK is a possibility - the same has happened in Italy - as is BMI but here's a long shot.
BMI is a well know UK brand however I'm not sure of it's public image any more.
I'd love to see MAN see the launch of such an airline with routes to the continent - we can only dream...
VS would be a no no for IAG though, surely? The EU would laugh at it no?
Now if only there was a third runway at LHR - would SRB like to place an order for A320NEOs and really go for it?
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would SRB like to place an order for A320NEOs and really go for it
Pity they are destined for Virgin America.
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...not forgetting of course that Virgin Holidays and Virgin Atlantic are entirely separate legal entities. As far as I know Virgin Hols buy seats on VS flights just like any other tour operator.
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Would Virgin benefit from a feeder airline? Much of BA's long haul passengers (where the money is) comes from outside the UK, helpfully provided by their short haul operation.
It's been reported many times that Virgin would love to acquire BMI, though it's never happened. Others have suggested easyJet, but they have no Heathrow presence (and probably never will) so the future for Virgin could be rocky.
People who choose Virgin over BA on competing routes do so perhaps for the traditionally better service, or the more modern feel to the airline, but if these attributes are slipping, as reported by others above, then what else can they do to compete with a resurgent BA?
I think the future for Virgin has to include some kind of short haul feeder alliance, particularly in light of growth at Madrid CDG and AMS.
JT
It's been reported many times that Virgin would love to acquire BMI, though it's never happened. Others have suggested easyJet, but they have no Heathrow presence (and probably never will) so the future for Virgin could be rocky.
People who choose Virgin over BA on competing routes do so perhaps for the traditionally better service, or the more modern feel to the airline, but if these attributes are slipping, as reported by others above, then what else can they do to compete with a resurgent BA?
I think the future for Virgin has to include some kind of short haul feeder alliance, particularly in light of growth at Madrid CDG and AMS.
JT
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I am infrequent Virgin traveller. Firstly, I have a certain knowledge of the airline industry, and am fairly tech savvy, so I can trawl the internet looking for flights at the best price, get the seats I want etc etc. So its with that in mind that I look at the Virgin product and see massive holes in it.
Why was there a massive difference between the LHR and LGW fleets? Is the LGW customer not as important as someone flying from LHR? Is their money not the same? 2 years ago I flew LGW-LAS on a tatty 744 in premium economy. The return was SFO-LHR as in PE and it was such a vast difference, from the seating, ife, the crew, meals etc. I know the fleet has now gotten an upgrade, but thats just not acceptable.
I do not find Virgin to be the great company it once was. That puts me off flying them, and to be honest, they are not cheap. If they expect their customers to pay a premium to fly with them, at least have a better product that the competition.
Incidentally, when I booked that flight with Virgin Atlantic, LGW-LAS and SFO-LHR, they didnt offer me Virgin America for the LAS-SFO leg!!!
Why was there a massive difference between the LHR and LGW fleets? Is the LGW customer not as important as someone flying from LHR? Is their money not the same? 2 years ago I flew LGW-LAS on a tatty 744 in premium economy. The return was SFO-LHR as in PE and it was such a vast difference, from the seating, ife, the crew, meals etc. I know the fleet has now gotten an upgrade, but thats just not acceptable.
I do not find Virgin to be the great company it once was. That puts me off flying them, and to be honest, they are not cheap. If they expect their customers to pay a premium to fly with them, at least have a better product that the competition.
Incidentally, when I booked that flight with Virgin Atlantic, LGW-LAS and SFO-LHR, they didnt offer me Virgin America for the LAS-SFO leg!!!
I feel your pain but ultimately you can argue fairly convincingly that you are paying for the transportation and actual service and that the "hard product" is a by-product. In fairness to Virgin, they aren't the only airline with such a differing hard product. Some airlines have a vastly different offering.... just look at Delta's widebody fleet and even across the Emirates fleet in certain classes.
Virgin are actually quite savvy in that they place the better hard product on the LHR routes which are probably more profitable with high premium demand whilst ex LGW is mainly leisure and demand swings more towards the rear cabin.
Overall though, Virgin are often viewed as the holy grail.....usually by joe public these days, but they really aren't as innovative as they once were. They aren't a bad airline at all but some do expect more than what they actually get and can be dissapointed. I'm not at all saying that you were one of these people.
You mentioned the crew.........FYI, LGW crew are dual based and so operate LGW and LHR.
Virgin are actually quite savvy in that they place the better hard product on the LHR routes which are probably more profitable with high premium demand whilst ex LGW is mainly leisure and demand swings more towards the rear cabin.
Overall though, Virgin are often viewed as the holy grail.....usually by joe public these days, but they really aren't as innovative as they once were. They aren't a bad airline at all but some do expect more than what they actually get and can be dissapointed. I'm not at all saying that you were one of these people.
You mentioned the crew.........FYI, LGW crew are dual based and so operate LGW and LHR.
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Overall though, Virgin are often viewed as the holy grail.....usually by joe public these days, but they really aren't as innovative as they once were. They aren't a bad airline at all but some do expect more than what they actually get and can be dissapointed. I'm not at all saying that you were one of these people.
They seem way more concerned with changing the pretty colours and the font on the aircraft than overhauling a former world leading brand where it matters. Having said that even the website maintains the old vibrant purple branding from 2000 with the exception of the header on the top LHS.
They can't even buy new A330s and get them into service without a massive balls up in the project management of the new Premium product. This meant having two brand new aircraft dropped into leisure routes at the last minute instead of premium routes out of LHR and the rest desperately leased out at the last minute leaving the leases on the ageing A340-300s to be extended again. As for each of the Virgin airlines talking to each other, forget it!
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Although I see your point Skipiness I think the LGW/MAN fleet are for more in need of a refit and also the new A330's compared to the A340-300s at LHR, especially considering they already have the latest Premium Products and they only really need new ife. Although why they didn't bring in a few A330's on some of the shorter routes (BOS, IAD, ORD, DXB) instead of leasing them out baffles me. 
Absolutely. I've have colleagues who have worked for VS ex MAN (and LGW) and they always comment on the difference onboard when compared with LHR. Certainly ex MAN this is compounded by the very high expectations that those who have saved one or two years to see Mickey Mouse, have.
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hi,
The problem Virgin has with the A330 is that it only has got 2 engines. One will remember the "4 engines 4 long haul" written on the fuselage of the fleet......
Virgin ordered 10 A330 but forgot that as an airline they needed to get the CAA approval for ETOPS operation. This can only be achieved after long preparation and a 6 months proving flying....
Also remember that we are going through an economic crisis and Virgin was quick to offload staff.
So if you combine the 2 you get an airline with 10 twin engines but no one to fly them....well few Thomas Cook pilots......
The problem Virgin has with the A330 is that it only has got 2 engines. One will remember the "4 engines 4 long haul" written on the fuselage of the fleet......
Virgin ordered 10 A330 but forgot that as an airline they needed to get the CAA approval for ETOPS operation. This can only be achieved after long preparation and a 6 months proving flying....
Also remember that we are going through an economic crisis and Virgin was quick to offload staff.
So if you combine the 2 you get an airline with 10 twin engines but no one to fly them....well few Thomas Cook pilots......