DUBLIN - 2

[Bearcat]

I find Ryanairs statement on their website appalling. Yes the airport is a mess but the trolls like racedo add nothing but village idiot demensia to the thread. The rwy closed yesterday evening again because of persistent snow but most important braking action was quoted as poor which threw a grenade into the process for landing aircraft. Numerous FR flights refused to accept landing clearance with the poor reports. I don't know what happened to them but FR's comment re more sweeping equipment wouldnt have made a damn difference re whether the airport would have remained open longer.....crews were running out of hours everywhere so I suppose you have to blame someone as per the FR culture. Similar weather at Chicago O'Hare last week closed the airport, likewise they have multiple rwys so when the active rwy starts to receed re useability they have a hot spare ready to go. Dublin does not have this capacity or facilty....in that sweeping rwy 16 intersects with taxiways for rwy 28 and would impede upon the 28 threshold....not a runner.

The bottom line is the DAA will not come unscathed from this......heavies cant get onto their stands due non movement of other aircraft so no one is still not going anywhere and place is creaking at the seams there.

[Tooloose]

racedo,
Bearcat is quite right that there could be investment to improve the situation. The first requirement is a parallel runway which would allow one to remain in use as the other is cleared. Of course, when this was proposed it was opposed tooth and nail by guess who..oh yes Ryanair. Ryanair didn't need a parallel runway so it shouldn't be built. Major airports like Chicago, JFK, Heathrow, Amsterdam, Brussels and Frankfurt were all closed over the past weeks. They all have multiple runways.They are not short of investment or experience in dealing with adverse weather conditions. If DAA had spent €5m on new equipment in the past year and there was no snow we would be deafened by the howls of protest and condemnation from MOL and his various mouthpieces and such profligate waste. Dealing with adverse weather is not as simple as racedo.

[Based]

Can everyone please bear in mind that Ryanair are specifically referring to the closure yesterday morning (23rd), they haven't critised the closures in general. Suggesting that safety isn't of primary importance to both the DAA and Ryanair is just silly. Does everything have to revolve around being pro/anti Ryanair or DAA? My personal view is that the DAA have done a pretty decent job in general dealing with the current conditions. None of us can comment on the true situation and circumstances but the two instances that raise a few questions in my mind (given the conditions at those times) are not attempting to have the airport open for the first wave of departures on Wednesday morning (stated 8am, actually opened around 7am) and the length of the closure yesterday morning.

[racedo]

Can we deal with the issue of DAA and its under investment in equipment to ensure the safe operation of the airport in inclement weather rather than resorting to personal abuse please.

[PleasureFlyer]

Perhaps of Ryanair paid a fair and reasonable amount in fees instead of screwing every last cent out of the airports then they (DAA) might have money to invest in more equipment.

[Charlie Roy]

Now a light aircraft blocking runway at DUB, runway closed for an hour. At least 2 Aer Lingus aircraft diverting to Cork. A couple of Ryanair aircraft seem to be diverting to Liverpool/Manchester.

[Red Paddy]

Hi Bearcat,

Just a few points.

Despite the scale of this year's snow at Dublin Airport, the scope of the operational shutdowns is nothing short of inexcusable, especially given the experience gained last winter. In that sense Ryanair is quite correct in calling for an investigation.

Firstly look at the actual snow clearance procedures at Dublin, many of which go against the international practices I have seen employed throughout Europe.

Nothing happens until a closure actually takes place. There is no continual clearance at Dublin when snow is falling. The trucks don't come out until all operations stop. Certain sections of taxiway could be closed and cleared while the runway remains open.

Partial runway clearance can still take place while snow is still falling. This seems to be lost on those giving the clearance trucks the "go".

Small scale runway shutdowns for 15 minutes per hour should be enough to maintain continual operations, with trucks ready to roll immediately if the situation dictates.

This does not happen.

There is also an insistence on clearing 100% of the runway when keeping 15m either side of the centre line clear is sufficient to maintain operations.

Also, while aircraft may not be able to accept BA Poor reports, operations can continue with any higher BA reports. There is no actual need to return 100% of the runway to BA Good in one single sweep, when it is well above the standard actually required to operate. Return the runway to say BA Medium and use small scale 15 minute closures thereafter to continually improve it's condition, therby reducing the downtime and minimising diversions. Aircraft simply do not carry enough fuel to hold for 4 hour stoppages. Diversions have massive knock on scheduling implications.

The level of preparedness must also be called into question. The de ice fleet at Dublin looks quite lightweight in comparison with other airports. It also seems this year the DAA spent some money hiring in a fleet of privately owned snow plough equipped tractors for apron and stand clearance. A few nights ago during a closure with heavy snowfall they were sitting idle.

Airports with much heavier snow falls and much more sever temperatures manage to maintain somewhat continuous operations, so it is absolutely correct for an airline to call into question an airport's handling of the situation when there are seemingly obvious flaws in the methods employed.

In early October I witnessed the de ice fleet out on runway 11/29 for a practice run. My feeling was that there might actually be a proper plan in place this year. There has been an improvement in the estimated reopening times, however everything else seems the same.

One wonders did any consultation take place with airports further east and north who have vast experience in this area? Seems like a simple idea. Review and amend Dublin's contingency plans accordingly.

I have to admit being caught offside myself this year. I was forced to go in search of a snow shovel to clear a path for my car. I was informed on arrival at my local branch of a well known DIY chain, that while they had recieved a shipment of same that morning, a (desperate) DAA had already bought every last one!

Says it all!

Happy Christmas!

[Jamie2k9]

Now a light aircraft blocking runway at DUB, runway closed for an hour. At least 2 Aer Lingus aircraft diverting to Cork. A couple of Ryanair aircraft seem to be diverting to Liverpool/Manchester.

Airport reopened at 17:00.

Ryanair diverting to Manchester and Liverpool because of no de-icing fluid left in SNN and ORK as well as what happened to FR with de icing fluid in BFS the other other day.

Ryanair have had to put security guards at Check-in desks as passengers are taking their tempers out on the check in staff.

[racedo]

Perhaps of Ryanair paid a fair and reasonable amount in fees instead of screwing every last cent out of the airports then they (DAA) might have money to invest in more equipment.

Really, do you want to go with that !!! DAA 2009 profits were €38 Million and airport charges increasing massively when the Irish economy has been in deflationary mode.

DAA management caught out again and again with bad weather.

[Jamie2k9]

Dublin is a major airport and the current charges are well below other major european airports. But there is no point is in talking about what Ryanair pays the DAA.

DAA management caught out again and again with bad weather.

Just like LGW, LHR, EDI etc. Dublin remained open while there were closed with the same snow fall.

Next people will be saying that the airport should of being kept open when the light aircraft blocked the runway.

[Sober Lark]

Commentary such as we heard from one of their biggest customers was a big mistake and the DAA came out the winners. Although commenting on sliding off the runway in Prestwick seemed to have broken one of those unwritten aviation no no rules I thought. Still it drove home a point and defined a line not to be crossed which was educational to us all.

[akerosid]

Good morning - and happy Christmas one and all!

Just a few comments on the snow debate:

"Nothing happens until a closure actually takes place. There is no continual clearance at Dublin when snow is falling. The trucks don't come out until all operations stop. Certain sections of taxiway could be closed and cleared while the runway remains open.

Partial runway clearance can still take place while snow is still falling. This seems to be lost on those giving the clearance trucks the "go".

Small scale runway shutdowns for 15 minutes per hour should be enough to maintain continual operations, with trucks ready to roll immediately if the situation dictates.

This does not happen."

So, do you want to see snowploughs in action while the runway is still open - and aircraft in the hold above, waiting to land? Surely it makes sense to let as many aircraft land -and then start clearing the runway?

Also, can you be certain that this is the DAA's own practice, or one mandated by the IAA?

I was one of the lucky ones yesterday and managed to get in at about 10.10 on the EI 203 from MAN and let me say that EI treated pax very well indeed. The conditions at the airport were severe and we were kept holding on a taxiway for about half an hour before a parking stand was available.

I think the big question should be put to US Airways, which kept over 200 pax on its flight 723 ... for seven hours, and then cancelled!

[Noxegon]

Yeah, that one is/was completely nuts. Do the DOT regulations apply given that it's a US airline?

[eu01]

Ryanair have had to put security guards at Check-in desks as passengers are taking their tempers out on the check in staff.

I think Ryanair did a bad mistake by cancelling several flights to Poland. These guys flying now to Gdansk and elsewhere have once initiated the fall of communism in Europe, so... better be careful in the future, as they might be better prepared next year!

To my understanding, there is a widespread irritation about this fact in Polish media.

[Callsign Kilo]

For those seeking to blame individual operators over the problem at DUB over the last few snow filled weeks heres some operational insight.

The airport duty manager will close the main runway at a drop of a hat under the advise of the airport fire authorities. It is always a minimum of four hours for clearing. You tell me any other airport in the world which takes a minimum of 4 hours to clear a runway just over 2600m long after it has stopped snowing? Ok I understand that continual or sporadic snow causes additional problems, however you still do not require the length of time that the snow clearing teams at DUB actually took.

I was sitting on the ramp last week observing the commotion over the r/t. There must have been around 15 a/c awaiting departure. It was clear by looking out the window that the runway would be closed. Crew were asking Delivery what the status was with regards to delays and potential closure; they had seen the writing on the wall. All credit to ATC, they were being pushed; yet they reacted as professionally as possible, given the limited information that they were being supplied. Bare in mind that people were making operational decisions based on this information - boarding passengers, de-icing, fuelling etc.

Finally the runway was closed due to contamination. A minimum of 4hrs was given. This eventually was extended. The very fact that the runway was closed meant, fairly obviously, that no arrivals or departures could occur. Yet the airport fire service proceeded to waste time in order to gather information on the depth of contamination. I couldn't fathom the reason for this. They had closed the runway, it required to be cleared - so clear it!

Last year I witnessed a deicing team at NCL clear a runway to a required width (30m) and a required depth (3mm - however we can take up to 13mm dependent upon weight and thrust rating) in under 10mins. The runway is 2500m long. I would very much doubt the authorities at DUB were aware that most operators using medium haul a/c could take 30m width and up to 13mm depth. It was fairly obvious because during the day in question they became obsessed with the fact that the last 2/3 of the runway had patches of contamination of up to 20mm and had ATC report it on several occasions after it was measured. 2/3 of the runway at 20mm! As soon as the measured over 13mm (or anything close to it) they should have known that was it. Times a wasting you had better get clearing!!

I don't know what procedures regarding snow clearing at DUB actually are. But judging by what has occurred and the length of time that it actually took not only this year but indeed last; something needs to be seriously overhauled. The DAA cannot play roulette and simply say that the weather was freakish and is unlikely to occur again. It has been two years in a row now, has cost millions of euros and cost massive disruption. The DAA are already gambling with a reputation that has taken a massive kick in the you know whats.

[Jamie2k9]

think Ryanair did a bad mistake by canceling several flights to Poland. These guys flying now to Gdansk and elsewhere have once initiated the fall of communism in Europe, so... better be careful in the future, as they might be better prepared next year!

To my understanding, there is a widespread irritation about this fact in Polish media.

Completely agrees. Ryanair could of canceled flights to ACE, AGP etc which would of being a problem but most of them would be Irish and they have family to spent Christmas with. Most Polish people only go back once or twice a year to see family. Ryanair could of handled it a lot better.

To the best of my knowledge Aer Lingus get all if not most passengers to Krakow and Warsaw with larger planes and extra flights which all went.

[Callsign Kilo]

Jamie, you cannot compare two operations an their ability to operate all flights to every destination.

EI have a comparatively small operation into Poland as compared to FRs. Poland equally experienced some fairly poor weather which caused extensive delays (I know - I experienced these first hand). There will have obviously been an operational consideration - slot times, deicing availability, aircraft rotation for later sectors. I'm not suggesting FR should be supported for every decision that they make, however I'm wise enough to know that they don't decide to operate a flight and therefore cancel another because it is more important to get a couple of Paddys down to Lanzarote for Xmas

[Jamie2k9]

There were problems in Poland mainly Wroclaw with freezing fog and some Snow in Gdansk. Ryanair have 255a/c. Only around 200 were operating over the last week. They could of braught in more aircraft and they can't say there was no dei cing fluid left as a lot are parked across Europe.

A Dublin based a/c had to wait in East-Midlands for an aircraft as the Dublin a/c had to operate a flight to/from East-Midlands on Wednesday and the Dublin crew were waiting for the next a/c to arrive in East-Midlands to go back to Dublin. Those 4 hours 30 minutes could of almost operated a flight between Dublin - Poland and back.

At least Aer Lingus hired larger planes. Why couldn't FR do the same? To much money. Aer Lingus flights were arriving in Dublin until 4:30am today. Ryanair flights stopped at around 17:45 except a flight from ACE which was delayed by 8 Hours due to ATC problems in ACE.

I just think that Ryanair could of taken a few better decisions and not spent so much time getting one up on the DAA.

[Faire d'income]

Dublin's largest operator cannot operate on runways cleared to 30m, they need 45m.

Even though there was no snow yesterday morning the chaos was partially down to the knock on effect of the previous runway closures but also partially down to the combined incompetency of the DAA and the airlines.

Aircraft from cancelled flights were left sitting for hours on stands that then became unavailable for operational flights. Aircraft were left sitting on taxiways for up to an hour after landing waiting for the now limited number of stands. The DAA needed to clear remote parking for these aircraft but the airlines and handling agents made a mess of towing these aircraft out of the way.

All of the airlines seemed to be reacting by the minute instead of working off plans. As soon as flights go off schedule it all falls apart. Why does it seem to be so hard to co-ordinate, fueling, boarding, doors closed, steps/jetway removed, de-icing, push-back etc? We had aircraft everywhere at various stages of readiness but none completely ready and it dragged on and on. This of course blocked the remaining available stands.

A lot of the blame must go to the DAA but the airlines and handling agencies must take their share.

For balance it must be mentioned that all of the crews, terminal staff and in particular the ramp staff played a blinder considering the pressure and freezing conditions.

[Red Paddy]

Hi Akerosid,

"So, do you want to see snowploughs in action while the runway is still open - and aircraft in the hold above, waiting to land? "

This is exactly what needs to happen, although the runway would actually be closed, but for a very short while. It is what happens everywhere else. I had one go around last week so they could perform a sweep at a central european airport. Vectored around immediately for another approach. Lost 10 minutes. Runway almost exactly the same length as Dublin.

What is lost on the DAA is that there is no need to completely clear the runway, just improve it. Is there something the DAA knows that nobody else does, or is it the other way around? The latter I'm afraid.

Callsign Kilo, it appears we were working the same night.

Faire d'income, is that 45m restriction related to the long haul fleet or does it apply to the narrowbodies also? If so, that's surely a company restriction that could be put under review. It seems excessive.

If widebody only, the runway could initially be cleared to 30m to get traffic moving and then continually improved with small closures to the full 45m.

The problem with these 4 hour closures is that it causes aircraft to divert and there are massive numbers of flight cancellations.

Simply improve the runway to a sufficient standard with small closures, and there are no diversions, airlines schedules survive with delays of course, but without cancellations. No aircraft out of position. No stranded passengers.

And please, please, please mobilise the fleet quicker. I suspect people are pulled off other jobs to drive the deicing trucks.

Jamie2k9,

It appears you were not keeping track of Aer Lingus cancellations too closely yesterday afternoon. The entire operation fell like a deck of cards. Aircraft may have arrived back at 4:30 am but when almost all outbounds after 4pm were cancelled there were interesting scenes at departures I hear. Chanting, angry crowds. Tomorrow's papers should be interesting.

I'm wondering as to your motives in turning this into a EI v FR thing.

Everyone had their problems. This is the Dublin Airport thread and the performance of the DAA did absolutely nothing to help airlines maintain their schedules. Both EI and FR suffered as a result.