Quote: "Which if true would leave some questions. Would Virgin take up the 'mantle' and operate through SIN? Does the aviation industry recognise that Virgin is the national flag carrier? How would BA"s traffic be affected on SIN, BKK and possibly KUL terminators? Have Emirates got the route well and truly sown up? Their next goal surely would be the Pacific? If so then they have the world sown up."
Unlikely that VS would do LHR-SIN-SYD as already going via HKG. If BA could not sustain a daily flight to SYD, it seems highly unlikely that VS could do 2.
In addition to LHR-SIN-SYD, BA already has 1 terminator each to SIN and BKK, both of which used to continue to Australia, from BKK to SYD and from SIN to MEL, so this would probably continue. BA are no longer on LHR-KUL, but this could change.
It appears that EK gets more out of the JSA than QF. However, EK's strategy only works where governments permit "open skies" type arrangements.
There are 25 daily flights between the UK and the UAE, 21 on UAE carriers and 4 on UK carriers, giving UAE carriers the advantage.
If, for example, the current arrangements between the UK and the UAE were to end, and a more Canadian or French style prevailed, the impact on EK and EY would be far greater than on BA or VS. Not suggesting that this WILL ever happen, of course. If India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand and some other countries followed suit, EK's ability to "have the world sown up" would be severely hampered.
Quote: "BA cannot offer SIN-SYD? It seems fifth freedom rights are missing....."
BA has fifth freedom rights on SIN-SYD and BKK-SYD, and AFAIK, VS has HKG-SYD.
QF has fifth freedom rights on SIN-LHR and BKK-LHR, and AFAIK, HKG-LHR.
At present not all are being used by all carriers.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 13th Oct 2012 at 02:06.
Reason: clarity
There are 25 daily flights between the UK and the UAE, 21 on UAE carriers and 4 on UK carriers, giving UAE carriers the advantage.
Not sure that is a fair comparison. UAE has two hub airports in DXB and AUH, both connected to UK regional airports as well as to LHR.
A fairer comparison would be between the UK (or essentially London) and the Arabian peninsula as a whole, where the scales start to tip the other way.
I can see a big loss of prestige for BA pulling out of SYD, but as always, this is going to be based on commercial logic, not political aspirations.
Why would VS be able to sustain a kangaroo route if BA couldn't? Lower crewing costs trumping BA's connections advantage? Perhaps that is key on a route with two long sectors?
...a simple phonecall can solve all sorts of website anomilies....
The day one can accomplish a simple phone call that doesn't leave you wishing carnage upon the call centre will be a day long remembered.
As for the prestige of Sydney, well Auckland, Melbourne, Perth et al went the way of the dodo and I see no reason why SYD should differ. BA are commercially astute enough to focus on strengths and forget the glory days of Empire. Leave Sydney to Emirates, it's a better option for most UK residents.
Flew from MAN to LHR over the weekend. BA are still using Terminal 1 at LHR for their shuttle flights which must be a pain if you are transferring to another BA flight at Terminal 5. Are any BA plans to eventually transfer all their shuttle flights to Terminal 5 ?
You would have been flying on an ex-BMI service. These T1 flights are being consolidated with the main BA LHR-MAN service that operates from T5 and the new service from the W12 timetable will operate from T5.
As a former LHR-MAN frequent travellers several years ago, you reminded me of how painful the old T1-T4 transfer used to be, let alone the lost bags!
What's the latest with the slots BA/IAG has to potentially give up as part of the bmi takeover ? Had a look at the compeitionrx.com website, but it all seems to have gone a bit quiet. Is there a likely date or range of dates for when something significant is expected to be announced ? I had a read through the EU's press release number IP/12/338 but couldn't see any clear dates as to public announcements - I'm guessing that sometime around the IATA conference on 15-18 November, we might hear something, but does anyone out there know any better ?
The slot release submission deadline for summer 2013 was last week, so presumably somebody is doing something about the bmi slots now.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 16th Oct 2012 at 23:58.
These T1 flights are being consolidated with the main BA LHR-MAN service that operates from T5 and the new service from the W12 timetable will operate from T5.
I was forever hopeful that with allthe extra slots BA now has, and the chronic lack of space at T5, that the whole BA domestic operation might have been shifted back to the old BMI area at T1.
Am I mad ? Well, not really. You see, although T5 is a grand and impressive building, and it's convenient to have all the connections together, moving the BA domestics out to T5 was a real pain when you live in London, or if you are coming down from Scotland and going into London, especially on a day trip. For a start it's about £6 each way more in a taxi out to T5 that to T1, and you can get snared in significant M25 congestion (especially arrivals in the morning) that was never an issue with terminals in the Central Area. Then there's the longer time taken for processing, the lack of a dedicated domestic departures security that T1 used to have, where everyone seemed toknow the procedure (the T5 security takes ages longer), the confounded T5 Conformance cut-off for security, only half the number of Piccadilly Line Underground trains, etc etc. I reckon T5 adds a good 30 minutes each way to domestic flights. That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
Interesting points, but as you say, depends on where you are coming from and how you are getting there. The MAN sector is around 75% tfer, EDI & GLA may be less so, but I would guess they must still be 50%+.
City airport make the same claim about saving 30-60 mins per sector, but BA have opted to (re) launch LBA from LHR, so let's see.
Quote: "I was forever hopeful that with allthe extra slots BA now has, and the chronic lack of space at T5, that the whole BA domestic operation might have been shifted back to the old BMI area at T1."
Won't happen, LHR-1 is due for demolition when the new LHR-2 opens (next year?).
The whole point of LHR-5 was to bring all of BA and one world under one roof. Pity it wasn't built big enough! That's why part of BA is at LHR-3 with one world.
Before, BA were at LHR-1 and LHR-4, now they're at back at LHR-1, LHR3 and LHR-5. Dear oh dear.
I was forever hopeful that with allthe extra slots BA now has, and the chronic lack of space at T5, that the whole BA domestic operation might have been shifted back to the old BMI area at T1.
Am I mad ? Well, not really. You see, although T5 is a grand and impressive building, and it's convenient to have all the connections together, moving the BA domestics out to T5 was a real pain when you live in London, or if you are coming down from Scotland and going into London, especially on a day trip. For a start it's about £6 each way more in a taxi out to T5 that to T1, and you can get snared in significant M25 congestion (especially arrivals in the morning) that was never an issue with terminals in the Central Area. Then there's the longer time taken for processing, the lack of a dedicated domestic departures security that T1 used to have, where everyone seemed toknow the procedure (the T5 security takes ages longer), the confounded T5 Conformance cut-off for security, only half the number of Piccadilly Line Underground trains, etc etc. I reckon T5 adds a good 30 minutes each way to domestic flights. That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
Completely agree. That move would make a lot of sense if you value point-to-point traffic above domestic-connecting traffic which, commercially speaking, BA should...
The MAN sector is around 75% tfer, EDI & GLA may be less so, but I would guess they must still be 50%+.
Only a small sample, but my own experience of discussions about what they are doing with seatmates on these BA Heathrow domestic sectors shows nothing like these percentages of transfer pax. In fact, it's been a couple of years since I was next to someone who was transferring.
I don't know the figures, but I'd guess that domestic connecting traffic pays vastly better for BA than point-to-point - they wouldn't bother wasting slots at LHR on A319s if it didn't. The only reason they will fly routes like LBA-LHR is to fill seats on long-haul, surely? Obviously on the Scottish routes it is sometimes different but there's a reason why they fly to LCY too.
I don't know the figures, but I'd guess that domestic connecting traffic pays vastly better for BA than point-to-point - they wouldn't bother wasting slots at LHR on A319s if it didn't.
This is a moot point. A Scottish customer of mine came down to London on a day return trip one morning and, by chance, was on the same BA flight as one of his staff off on holiday to Miami, connecting at LHR. The simple domestic flight ticket was well over half the total amount his colleague was paying for the entire round trip connecting on to Miami and back home.
It then all depends on how the revenue attribution is done on connections, and that depends on how the accountant wants to do the arithmetic (and, to some extent, on the relative strengths of the different commercial managers when discussing how to do the split). But the domestic doesn't get much of the total share with a long-haul. If it weren't for the point-to-points it just wouldn't be worth running the service.
Only a small sample, but my own experience of discussions about what they are doing with seatmates on these BA Heathrow domestic sectors shows nothing like these percentages of transfer pax. In fact, it's been a couple of years since I was next to someone who was transferring.
It is one of those stats I read in a report somewhere and considered it perfectly reasonable without any thought to question it, so I can't dig it out I'm afraid.
The 75% figure, if true, is strictly for MAN, on the basis that the train wins on convenience, and usually on price, for most (but not all) pax. The moment you move beyond a 2hr train journey, the advantage of the train falls off rapidly, hence my estimate of 50% for the Scottish sectors, but it was indeed just that.
However, I should of course qualify the price issue on the train, now that we know Virgin 1st class from Wilmslow to London is too expensive even for the Chancellor!
Quote:
I'd guess that domestic connecting traffic pays vastly better for BA than point-to-point
I would suspect that there is quite a big proportional increase in domestic yields between MAN and EDI / GLA, perhaps with another rise going up to ABZ, as the train is only really a contender for the leisure passenger on these sectors.
