CORK - 5
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I'd say it's more to do with Ryanair at Stansted. The ATR-72, as economic as it is would struggle to compete if Ryanair put their prices through the floor. If ryan2000 can say it's a problem for Easyjet, it certainly is for Aer Arann.
I always felt with Easyjet that one route was opening themselves up to a challenge from Ryanair. I would have thought it would have been better to open up 5 or 6 routes from various bases, preferably ones where Ryanair didn't have a presence. As things stand, we could do with some competition to London; the current duopoly have cut capacity and raised prices - good for them, not for us.
I always felt with Easyjet that one route was opening themselves up to a challenge from Ryanair. I would have thought it would have been better to open up 5 or 6 routes from various bases, preferably ones where Ryanair didn't have a presence. As things stand, we could do with some competition to London; the current duopoly have cut capacity and raised prices - good for them, not for us.
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They were within a whisker of doing just that in early 2006. The routes were even chosen but for some reason it never went ahead. Ryanair would have found it very awkward to compete on two of the routes as they were from airports that they didn't fly anywhere close to. Anyway it's history now as their venture into ORK NOC and SNN lasted less than two years and cost them a small fortune.
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Ryanair slashing there fares to London Stansted after easyJet's initial commencement of its Cork to London Gatwick route had minimal effect and easyJet had then increased their service from 2x Daily to 3x Daily. Francis is exactly right who with a brain in the CAA would think letting Ryanair directly compete with easyJet with a 2x Daily route to London Gatwick with 1p fares would see both continue to operate side by side? idiots is who decided they could and Cork could have been in a much better place if Ryanair's proposal was refused. Infact the CAA twice shot themselves in the foot, they also destroyed the Cork to Dublin market a route which would continue to operate today with a drastically lower frequency with RE, the lesson? Don't sell out strong performing routes to an ultra low cost carrier who will destroy the market and reduce your changes of growth. Imagine if Ryanair had not been granted incentives to fly to Dublin and London Gatwick? easyJet would most certainly have a base here and a Dublin route could still have been maintained.
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Originally Posted by Jack1985
Ryanair slashing there fares to London Stansted after easyJet's initial commencement of its Cork to London Gatwick route had minimal effect and easyJet had then increased their service from 2x Daily to 3x Daily. Francis is exactly right who with a brain in the CAA would think letting Ryanair directly compete with easyJet with a 2x Daily route to London Gatwick with 1p fares would see both continue to operate side by side? idiots is who decided they could and Cork could have been in a much better place if Ryanair's proposal was refused.
The CAA can't dictate to Ryanair what fares it can charge, or how it competes against other airlines. All it can do is facilitate airlines operating into Cork. So to blame the CAA for Ryanair's strategy is nonsense.
Originally Posted by Jack1985
Infact the CAA twice shot themselves in the foot, they also destroyed the Cork to Dublin market a route which would continue to operate today with a drastically lower frequency with RE, the lesson? Don't sell out strong performing routes to an ultra low cost carrier who will destroy the market and reduce your changes of growth. Imagine if Ryanair had not been granted incentives to fly to Dublin and London Gatwick? easyJet would most certainly have a base here and a Dublin route could still have been maintained.
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Shows how little so many experts know about route licenses.
EasyJet came in on top of BmiBaby, so easyJet wouldn't have received any subsidies, nor did Ryanair.
But as usual on the Cork thread, let's not let reality get in the way of the dreamworld of 777 diversions and secret societies keeping cork down. One amazing fact is that Cork Airport is blamed this time, rather than Shannon.
EasyJet came in on top of BmiBaby, so easyJet wouldn't have received any subsidies, nor did Ryanair.
But as usual on the Cork thread, let's not let reality get in the way of the dreamworld of 777 diversions and secret societies keeping cork down. One amazing fact is that Cork Airport is blamed this time, rather than Shannon.
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I'd very much doubt if Ryanair was given any incentives to compete with Easyjet on London or Aer Arann on Dublin. There is nothing in the airports route incentive scheme past or present to indicate that they provide such assistance. In hindsight Easyjet should have limited ORK LGW to 2 per day and maybe toughened it out for a bit longer. It was always going to be a huge task competing with EI and FR in the Irish market.
As for RE they might do OK on ORK DUB if they gave it another shot as I doubt FR would bother competing with them again.
As for RE they might do OK on ORK DUB if they gave it another shot as I doubt FR would bother competing with them again.
Last edited by ryan2000; 3rd May 2012 at 15:45.
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But as usual on the Cork thread, let's not let reality get in the way of the dreamworld of 777 diversions and secret societies keeping cork down. One amazing fact is that Cork Airport is blamed this time, rather than Shannon.
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I really don't see what the CAA (and Aer Rianta as a whole) were supposed to do? As I recall the sequence of events was
easyJet launch 4 daily flights from LGW to Ireland (2 to ORK, 1 each to SNN and NOC), there was a huge amount of publicity around it, in newspapers, radio, etc Then FR launched all three routes, with equal or higher frequency, lower fares (€25 return and a checked bag was included in those days). easyJet quickly cut SNN but added a flight at ORK. easyJet slugged it out far a while, but ventually announced a withdrawl when FR planned something like 4 daily ORK-LGW in the winter schedule. FR almost immediately reduced to one daily flight and operated 5 daily to DUB instead, oh and jacked the prices through the roof as well.
What was the CAA to do? Somehow ban Ryanair from flying to Gatwick? They couldn't give a discount to easyJet, but not to FR on the same terms. Despite what FR would have the media believe, FR is one of the most anti-competitive airlines in the world. They have quickly dispensed with Go and easyJet in the Irish market, entering markets they never before served. They seem to have left bmiBaby to it, for some reason, although a moot point now.
easyJet launch 4 daily flights from LGW to Ireland (2 to ORK, 1 each to SNN and NOC), there was a huge amount of publicity around it, in newspapers, radio, etc Then FR launched all three routes, with equal or higher frequency, lower fares (€25 return and a checked bag was included in those days). easyJet quickly cut SNN but added a flight at ORK. easyJet slugged it out far a while, but ventually announced a withdrawl when FR planned something like 4 daily ORK-LGW in the winter schedule. FR almost immediately reduced to one daily flight and operated 5 daily to DUB instead, oh and jacked the prices through the roof as well.
What was the CAA to do? Somehow ban Ryanair from flying to Gatwick? They couldn't give a discount to easyJet, but not to FR on the same terms. Despite what FR would have the media believe, FR is one of the most anti-competitive airlines in the world. They have quickly dispensed with Go and easyJet in the Irish market, entering markets they never before served. They seem to have left bmiBaby to it, for some reason, although a moot point now.
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Sounds correct Brian. And what you forget to mention is Copenhagen's point that Easyjet launched Gatwick to Cork when BMIBaby was already on the route. Easyjet drove them off the route. And later Ryanair drove Easyjet off the same route. It's called competition and is perfectly legal and even encouraged by the EU. Funny as it may seem, the CAA have almost no control over what airline flies what route. You know Ryanair often announce new routes and the airports involved have not even been consulted!
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To think that Aer Arann operated the Cork-Dublin route 8 times daily a few short years ago and continued to operate it alongside a 3 times daily Ryanair service, I'd also be really surprised if a turboprop operator didn't come back on the route and hopefully offer Cork passengers the opportunity to connect through Dublin rather than congested Heathrow.
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aer arran have a problem with CORK DUBLIN route with USA connect pax they can not carry the bags AT7 holds too small
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So, the ATR is too small for US bound baggage? It was designed in Shannon don't you know....
For how many years did the ATR operate for Delta and American regional carriers? What about the ATRs operating into CDG connecting to AF flights. What about all the other RE routes connecting to Dublin.
This thread goes from stupid to really bizarre
RE have a problem with the route alright - nobody wants to fly it.....
Oh, and....
Tenor my eye!
For how many years did the ATR operate for Delta and American regional carriers? What about the ATRs operating into CDG connecting to AF flights. What about all the other RE routes connecting to Dublin.
This thread goes from stupid to really bizarre
RE have a problem with the route alright - nobody wants to fly it.....
Oh, and....
Tenor my eye!
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That didn't used to stop them.
Although, if they relaunched, they'd be a lot more dependent on the connecting market. Previously, the long-haul connections would have mixed with a lot of business passengers travelling with no bags whatsoever.
With the motorway completed and with the train now operating every hour and offering fully flexible tickets, there's not a huge amount of reason to fly to Dublin for leisure or business. Maybe if your destination was near the airport, but that's aboutit.
Although, if they relaunched, they'd be a lot more dependent on the connecting market. Previously, the long-haul connections would have mixed with a lot of business passengers travelling with no bags whatsoever.
With the motorway completed and with the train now operating every hour and offering fully flexible tickets, there's not a huge amount of reason to fly to Dublin for leisure or business. Maybe if your destination was near the airport, but that's aboutit.
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Originally Posted by francis omahony
aer arran have a problem with CORK DUBLIN route with USA connect pax they can not carry the bags AT7 holds too small
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From a scheduling point of view, operating a flight that was purely based on long-haul feeder traffic would be a bit of a pain in the but. You would want to arrive into Dublin in the 7:15-7:45 range and depart about 10:15-10:45.
That's too long to leave an aircraft hanging round on the ground, but not quite long enough to squeeze in another rotation. Even at the long end of that, by the time you've factored in 3 half hour turnarounds, you get about 2 hours of flying time. Not many viable destinations in that range from Dublin in an ATR (both in terms of how far the ATR can fly and the fact that you'd be up against 737s and A320s on LPL and MAN). Maybe the Isle of Man or Blackpool could work, but that's about it.
So you end up having to swap aicraft, with all the crew-rostering hassle that's involved there.
That's too long to leave an aircraft hanging round on the ground, but not quite long enough to squeeze in another rotation. Even at the long end of that, by the time you've factored in 3 half hour turnarounds, you get about 2 hours of flying time. Not many viable destinations in that range from Dublin in an ATR (both in terms of how far the ATR can fly and the fact that you'd be up against 737s and A320s on LPL and MAN). Maybe the Isle of Man or Blackpool could work, but that's about it.
So you end up having to swap aicraft, with all the crew-rostering hassle that's involved there.