IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 2,781
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
XL Airways
So XL Airways are now abandoning the Gatwick route and Ryanair have ensured that they get out due to their usual carry on, rock bottom fares, and increased frequency on STN route and a rotation to LTN. Let see what frequency that they have next summer, anything less than 3 a day (2 to STN, 1 to LTN) and it a case should be taken against Ryanair by XL for predatory behaviour? Their new approach to XL ie instead of flying head to head on LGW they flooded the market with seats and prices on other airports. Liverpool failed in the past for Ryanair, and they will fly 40% full aircraft on this route until WW drop Manchester. Same as for BHX, how long will WW sustain BHX while Ryanair are on EMA?
IWHAK-alot of what you are saying is true, Ryanair has gone public about its Shannon situation and we can expect a major row to erupt, surprising that they have not announced a grounding of at least 1 aircraft at Shannon this winter, if things are so bad.
IWHAK-alot of what you are saying is true, Ryanair has gone public about its Shannon situation and we can expect a major row to erupt, surprising that they have not announced a grounding of at least 1 aircraft at Shannon this winter, if things are so bad.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sole operator at Kerry, now Knock
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote "Are you saying that simply because a PSO route gets funds it automatically becomes viable?"
Not at all, I have no interest supporting any individual PSO. There's a lot of the criticism of the PSO system in the media at the moment which seems to miss the whole point of the PSO. I simply pointed out that the purpose of Public Service Obligation flights is to provide a public service where it would not be commercially viable otherwise. I'ts a subsidised service, like rail or buses profit is not it's key measure. The public service is presumably providing feeder services between the capital / main hub on the island and the regions airports.
Now if the public service is questionable that criticism should be directed towards government policy, or lack of. I don't know why MOL is propping up the PSO system he gives out about so much, I can only assume he want's to damage his competition. Of course it would be better served with a smaller aircraft, I doubt the government would be so daft as to agree to his plan, but this is a commercial tender and comes down to the best bid at the end of the day.
IWHAK
As a member of the western business community my interest is in promoting good air access to the region. This is the airports forum on a public airline news website, so when I find relevant news I pass it on.
Not at all, I have no interest supporting any individual PSO. There's a lot of the criticism of the PSO system in the media at the moment which seems to miss the whole point of the PSO. I simply pointed out that the purpose of Public Service Obligation flights is to provide a public service where it would not be commercially viable otherwise. I'ts a subsidised service, like rail or buses profit is not it's key measure. The public service is presumably providing feeder services between the capital / main hub on the island and the regions airports.
Now if the public service is questionable that criticism should be directed towards government policy, or lack of. I don't know why MOL is propping up the PSO system he gives out about so much, I can only assume he want's to damage his competition. Of course it would be better served with a smaller aircraft, I doubt the government would be so daft as to agree to his plan, but this is a commercial tender and comes down to the best bid at the end of the day.
IWHAK
As a member of the western business community my interest is in promoting good air access to the region. This is the airports forum on a public airline news website, so when I find relevant news I pass it on.
Last edited by sawtooth; 5th Aug 2008 at 13:51.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sawtooth.......no the PSO subsidises a route that provides critical air access to/from peripheral/disadvantaged regions. The PSO is a subsidy, and that only, the route must still generate additional revenue from moving pax. However, as BUD correctly stated the numbers were more 10-15, so even with the subsidy it was lossmaking on a S340, insufficient demand. Did FR apply for NOC, because if not it is my understanding that it must be offered to the other tenderers in turn. en2r, yes point taken, I was talking however in general terms, and do predict that it is only a matter of time before FR are the sole players.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IWHAK "Did FR apply for NOC, because if not it is my understanding that it must be offered to the other tenderers in turn"
MO'L claims to have applied after Cityjet declined the route.
Extract from his presentation to the Joint Committe on Transport:
Mr. Michael O’Leary: We wrote to the Department of Transport in recent days because we understand that whoever won the Dublin-Knock tender will not now operate the route. We have again stepped into the breach to rescue the regions of Ireland by informing the Department of Transport that we will operate the Dublin-Knock route, but as a mid-day service. If the Department wants it, it can have it.
MO'L claims to have applied after Cityjet declined the route.
Extract from his presentation to the Joint Committe on Transport:
Mr. Michael O’Leary: We wrote to the Department of Transport in recent days because we understand that whoever won the Dublin-Knock tender will not now operate the route. We have again stepped into the breach to rescue the regions of Ireland by informing the Department of Transport that we will operate the Dublin-Knock route, but as a mid-day service. If the Department wants it, it can have it.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sawtooth.......Did FR apply in the original tender process, if not it must be offered to the next unsuccessful candidate, FR can't just pip up and say we will operate it....there is a process!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said MO'L claims to have applied after Cityjet declined the route. I'm only going by what has been said in the public domain. I would presume it has been offered to Aer Arann who did also apply.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 50
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airports like NOC should start preparing for a world without PSOs. When Kyoto starts to bite, and Ireland will clearly be in trouble there, subsidising air travel will start to look very off. With the improvements in the rail service implemented and planned, GWY's subsidy should already be looking shaky.
As for FR - it's one thing to step up to an unaccepted/withdrawn PSO, as RE has done at least twice with Loganair and Euroceltic, but it's another thing to refuse to operate as tendered - I wonder if the impact on economic development of a flight unhelpful to business travellers would give Brussels cause to intervene, as they sign off on PSOs I believe.
As for FR - it's one thing to step up to an unaccepted/withdrawn PSO, as RE has done at least twice with Loganair and Euroceltic, but it's another thing to refuse to operate as tendered - I wonder if the impact on economic development of a flight unhelpful to business travellers would give Brussels cause to intervene, as they sign off on PSOs I believe.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ireland/UK
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MarkD
Airports like NOC should start preparing for a world without PSOs.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a positive note bmi baby are retaining a weekend service to glasgow over the winter months. Im sure a friday and sunday service will be more popular than the current tue/thur and sunday.As for the Dublin route I could see Aer Arann taking the route with an upweighted subsidy .
They originally put in a tender along with cityjet so they must have made something on the route.
Last I heard the route carried 18,000 pax anually that was at the last pso tender in 2005.
They originally put in a tender along with cityjet so they must have made something on the route.
Last I heard the route carried 18,000 pax anually that was at the last pso tender in 2005.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Arann did ok on the route to be fair when ever i was back on it there were about 25 or so pax but some days were very bad.
From what i have heard is that aer arann dont have the a/c to operate the route. Since they lost kerry aswell they leased out an a/c dont no if theres ne truth in it......
From what i have heard is that aer arann dont have the a/c to operate the route. Since they lost kerry aswell they leased out an a/c dont no if theres ne truth in it......
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
markd......your mouth and brain don't seem to be connected! Heard a rumour that airport management courted Cityjet and voiced objections to RE. It now appears it may be a Scottish J31, RE were perfect for Knock but as the airport heads lost the run of themselves openly stating they didn't like turboprops it seems to have backfired.......badly!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cityjet were never going to operate a jet on the route it was going to be a vlm f50 but the takeover of vlm by cityjet has taken longer than expected. I do think that cityjet should have handed the route back at least a month before start date to give the dept of transport some time to get the situation sorted.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ireland
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iwhak: "Heard a rumour that airport management courted Cityjet.....It now appears it may be a Scottish J31"
Now who's the insider
But thanks for the info.
NOC would obviously love to get a new carrier in, especially WX who might have been able to develop the route with an interline connection to a hub like CDG. Nothing against RE but they are unlikely to offer any growth at NOC as their current strategy is to avoid competing directly with the jet carriers and are committed to their home base in GWY.
I'd be happy see the money spent on decent early-bird train service to the west introduced and end the constant winging about PSO subsides.
Now who's the insider
But thanks for the info.NOC would obviously love to get a new carrier in, especially WX who might have been able to develop the route with an interline connection to a hub like CDG. Nothing against RE but they are unlikely to offer any growth at NOC as their current strategy is to avoid competing directly with the jet carriers and are committed to their home base in GWY.
I'd be happy see the money spent on decent early-bird train service to the west introduced and end the constant winging about PSO subsides.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Isn't there some sort of penalty clause built into the PSO contract? I am surprised that an airline can walk away from the PSO contract within days of the agreed start-up date. I mean although it is not a flight chartered by government, it is, with big tax payers' money involved, not a regular commercial route either on which airlines can do as they please.
I note on Jethro's that Highland are due to acquire two more Jetsream 41s in addition to the two acquired for corporate shuttles - so might thse 29 seaters be an option as well?
Realistically, most of the PSO routes only require a 40-50 seater, if at all. So with Aer Arann disposing of their ATR42s, the ATR72s seems to be a bit of an capacity overkill on the long run to places such as Derry, Knock, Sligo or Carrickfin. Maybe time for another operator with a better suited fleet composition?
I note on Jethro's that Highland are due to acquire two more Jetsream 41s in addition to the two acquired for corporate shuttles - so might thse 29 seaters be an option as well?
Realistically, most of the PSO routes only require a 40-50 seater, if at all. So with Aer Arann disposing of their ATR42s, the ATR72s seems to be a bit of an capacity overkill on the long run to places such as Derry, Knock, Sligo or Carrickfin. Maybe time for another operator with a better suited fleet composition?
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 50
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iwak - not sure where exactly you're going with your ad hominem there.
Given that the PSO is public money on a State issued tender, I'm not sure what NOC was doing "courting" one airline over another as you posted above, but I'd be delighted for you to enlighten us on that one.
Incidentally, since the 2008 tender (PDF1, PDF2) revises the 2005 tender (PDF) but not in respect of aircraft type/size, how does a Jetstream 31 meet the following requirement - or is the government allowed to negotiate it away if a tender is not accepted by the first choice?
Given that the PSO is public money on a State issued tender, I'm not sure what NOC was doing "courting" one airline over another as you posted above, but I'd be delighted for you to enlighten us on that one.
Incidentally, since the 2008 tender (PDF1, PDF2) revises the 2005 tender (PDF) but not in respect of aircraft type/size, how does a Jetstream 31 meet the following requirement - or is the government allowed to negotiate it away if a tender is not accepted by the first choice?
2.2 Type of aircraft used:
(a) The services must be operated by pressurised aircraft with a minimum capacity of 30 passenger seats;
(a) The services must be operated by pressurised aircraft with a minimum capacity of 30 passenger seats;
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UAE
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for a little info VirginBlue an Atr 72 is just fractionally more expensive to operate than a 42.Hence Aer Aranns decision to have mainly 72s. The main cost on the Noc route would be overnighting the extra Cabin crew Member.I hope Aerarann get the Noc pso again I can tell you an Atr is alot more comfortable and modern than A Jetstream or a Fokker 50.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Markd......it has been well known that while the airports, have no final say in the tender process the Department do seek an opinion form them. In this case NOC being smart thought well let's support Cityjet and we might get a CDG service by default if the aircraft was to go there. However, it backfired, and currently the route lies idle. In relation to the 30 seats, that is the maximum number of seats the PSO will support and finally a J31 is pressurised.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Toronto, Canada (formerly EICK)
Age: 50
Posts: 2,834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by iwak
In relation to the 30 seats, that is the maximum number of seats the PSO will support
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree Liffey
I would rather walk than fly in a jetstream its like a flying pencil. Many passengers didnt like the saab when Loganair were flying the route , I think they were spoiled with the ATR however I wouldnt say no to a f50.
I would rather walk than fly in a jetstream its like a flying pencil. Many passengers didnt like the saab when Loganair were flying the route , I think they were spoiled with the ATR however I wouldnt say no to a f50.