IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

[Tom the Tenor]

If true, the above is a shocking statement.

Government once again seems to be siding firmly with snn?

No wonder Cork has never had a chance when you are up against this kind of favouritism.

No hope - no chance.

[dublinaviator]

Given the investment that's been made in providing CBP at Shannon, as well as to the airport infrastructure itself, it makes no sense for US airlines to be using NOC for flights to the West coast. Maybe the intervention by Leo Varadakar was bad form, but it makes economic sense for transatlantic routes to be confined to Shannon. Just because Mayo has it's own airport doesn't mean it can support a transatlantic route in conjunction with SNN and other airports.

[EI-A330-300]

The talks would of not being with recent SNN news as United would not split there services between SNN and NOC when going for same catchment area and US have always said they would return to SNN which is an established market for them.

With respect to NOC, US carriers have very high standards and NOC would not meet them.

BTW all airports in Ireland will see a substantial drop in leisure travel in 2013 after todays news so its time for NOC and other airports to find something else to offer than sun routes as they will struggle to fill and the capacity is well above demand.

No news of that rumoured second LH route?

[sawtooth]

Given the investment that's been made in providing CBP at Shannon, as well as to the airport infrastructure itself..

True Shannon has been the TA hub, however ORK & NOC would say they had no opportunity to tender for CBD investment, it was bestowed on SNN in another example of how political concerns run aviation policy.

[EI-A330-300]

True Shannon has been the TA hub, however ORK & NOC would say they had no opportunity to tender for CBD investment, it was bestowed on SNN in another example of how political concerns run aviation policy.

At the time ORK and NOC had no US services and it could be said that it would of being a wasted investment. It would be taxpayers picking up the cost for nothing. Anyway CBP dosn't stop a carrier from opening routes if the airline see potential.

[CONAIR11]

Can NOC or ORK handle a fully loaded 747? If they cant then why would you build a CBP facility and limit its purpose from the outset? So SNN doesnt handle them either right now, but it could.

[Knock63]

IWAK have had trans atlantic flights before and only for a very poor airline providing the 'service' they probably would still be providing that service. Given a fair crack of the whip I'm sure they could do it again.

[Jamie2k9]

Dublin - Length 3110m- Width 60 metres

Dublin is 6237m x 45m. (Not 100% about Width)

The new runway was submitted at 3110m x 60m however it will now be 3660m x 60m.

[sawtooth]

Knock- Length 2270m- Width 45 metres

Knock - Length is actually 2345m (changed when 09 RESA added), +150m displaced threshold on 09. Once the RESA is added at the 27 end DT can be removed making 2495m.

Dublin - Length 3110m- Width 60 metres

Dublin is 6237m x 45m. (Not 100% about Width)

Dublin is 2637 x 45, only Area51 has a 7000m runway!! No 60 wides on island that I know, see AIP

IAA AIP DUB

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I think the US airlines may have been talking to NOC, heard something about large Connaught decendance in Philidelphia(!mad, but possible) and the gathering, no info just speculation based on a previous press interview. Either way, one thing I think we can all agree on (yikes) is there will be no TA from NOC while DOT are hell bent on stopping it and ministers can intervene.

[cuthere]

Oh dear EI-BUD. Derry's runway is 1,967 metres long. I think your data is out of date.

As for NOC, why not have a transatlantic flight? Any time I've been holidaying in Connaught, the place has been full of Americans, so I'd reckon, anecdotally, that there'd be plenty of inbound passengers.

[cuthere]

Actually, I've just seen Jamie's post. Dublin airport's runway is 20,000 feet long? Hahahaha!!

[dublinaviator]

As for NOC, why not have a transatlantic flight? Any time I've been holidaying in Connaught, the place has been full of Americans, so I'd reckon, anecdotally, that there'd be plenty of inbound passengers.

There's Americans all over Ireland, it doesn't mean every airport in the country should have it's own route to the states. It comes down to economies of scale, the West coast would be better served with multiple daily flights through Shannon than multiple weekly flights spread throughout airports along the West coast.

[mart901]

Given the mass of immigration to the US and all the other cultural links I think it would be better to have flights from a better variety of airports. If I was in the US and wanted to get say to Mayo or Sligo, SNN would be lousy. The same mentality exists in the UK, we have LHR what more could anyone north of the M25 want! Also I don't think mega frequency is what tourists want, convenience means a lot, being stuck in Dublin traffic for instance is no way to start a holiday.

[Jamie2k9]

Time for a reality check here.

DUB will be Ireland's primary T/A gateway and SNN, BFS and ORK in future will sustain a few T/A service most seasonal. There is no place for NOC to serve the US. The catchment area of NOC is not large enough to support a T/A service and that will not change with population projections in the future and that people are moving East and to an extent South.

This rubbish NOC and ORK didn't get CBP. Just where would it be put in NOC without millions spend on Terminal expansion. NOC is a regional airport its not SNN, DUB or ORK or do people think its alright for the taxpayer to pick the tap up for NOC and not for SNN?
NOC needs to improve facilites to sustain a US carrier. CBP is only convent for passengers and airlines are not bothered weather people clear before or after the flight.

Knock management need to concentrate on priorities and not getting a US carrier.

NOC needs to keep its cost base down as it is but 2013 will be a very changeling year for the airport (not even taking SNN into the situation) after todays Budget, travel will be compressed even further.

NOC needs to become more business friendly as its not at the minute. It would have real benefit to the region however the airports cost base would go up but the increase in passengers could offset it.

NOC needs to develop better links with airlines and Holiday operators.

As dublinaviator said Americans and other tourists are all over the place, if we go by recent lodgic on here then every airport in Ireland should have links to countries that any tourists in the area are from. Are people for real?

This has nothing to do with SNN so unless you are going to reply with constructive points that are not related to SNN v NOC and SNN has this and NOC hasn't why bother?

[sawtooth]

Wow the mention of TA from anywhere outside SNN/DUB seems to really rise some people. I agree it's unlikely, and not the priority (LONDON). But if they did secure a 4 weekly NY service, would it really be that upsetting?

I mentioned CBP merely to illustrate another example of market interference, but SNN was the natural choice.

I notice no one addressed the substantive point, should a minister be interfering in commercial negotiations to directly favour one business over another?

[Jamie2k9]

Wow the mention of TA from anywhere outside SNN/DUB seems to really rise some people. I agree it's unlikely, and not the priority (LONDON). But if they did secure a 4 weekly NY service, would it really be that upsetting?

I mentioned CBP merely to illustrate another example of market interference, but SNN was the natural choice.

I notice no one addressed the substantive point, should a minister be interfering in commercial negotiations to directly favour one business over another?

Wouldn't be a problem and it won't happen today or tomorrow and as you say London is the main issue than needs to be addressed and if anything is putting the airport at risk its not having a decent business schedule even if it was only 3/4 days a week. NOC could add at least a thousand more passengers a month if the had a better London schedule. Dublin and Shannon are the only options for people in the west to get to London at suitable times.

One final not on CBP, its not the DAA running it, its the US side and SNN can just about support the running of it so how could NOC with a 4 pw or daily service to the US cover operating costs, it would not be sustainable.

I notice no one addressed the substantive point, should a minister be interfering in commercial negotiations to directly favour one business over another?

Can't comment on that as its NOC say aginst the minister and we don't know the full details.

[ryan2000]

I'd like to hear more details of this encounter. Airlines talk to airports all of the time without getting into serious live negotiations. Shannon's main advantages over Cork and Knock are its longer Runway its customs facility but most importantly of all its brand recognition in the U.S. It's fair to say that many non-Irish people there will have never heard of Cork or Knock. On another issue the airport will have to abandon its single shift strategy if it is to expand further particularly if it wants to attract a service to Heathrow or Schiphol.

[Kinocker]

On another issue the airport will have to abandon its single shift strategy if it is to expand further particularly if it wants to attract a service to Heathrow or Schiphol.

Totally agree with this - if Knock has aspirations then it is going to need to expand its operating hours, no question. The reports (if I recall them correctly) that Knock turned down better timed London flights from Ryanair due to cost savings required in terms of opening hours are not encouraging.

I personally believe that TA is a red herring. Knock could probably sustain a limited service, but it should not be the priority. If we are seeing any trend in recent years it is that the requirement is for better global connections from Irish airports is of far more importance than limited services to the North American market.

Knock's main priorities should be better timed London flights and decent links, either by codeshare or directly with an airline, to a European hub. I have heard quite a few stories of people coming home from Australia/NZ, flying to Heathrow and then traipsing across London to fly from Stansted to Knock, or else flying into Dublin. Huge potential for growth in these areas. TA should be behind both of these in terms of priority in my opinion. You can always connect via a hub to the US as well, as thousands do from Ireland each year.

As for Varadkar meddling in airport negotiations, this is poor form but not surprising. I can't imagine he gives a toss about Knock and he is, in general, a largely useless politician. There are a few others in his cabinet team who should be setting him straight though, including his boss.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by mart901

Given the mass of immigration to the US and all the other cultural links I think it would be better to have flights from a better variety of airports. If I was in the US and wanted to get say to Mayo or Sligo, SNN would be lousy. The same mentality exists in the UK, we have LHR what more could anyone north of the M25 want! Also I don't think mega frequency is what tourists want, convenience means a lot, being stuck in Dublin traffic for instance is no way to start a holiday.

That's not the case though. The vast majority of American tourists visiting Ireland treat their holiday as a 'once in a lifetime' thing, and as such want to tour as much of the country as possible. So there are very few Americans coming to Ireland with the intention of just visiting 1 or 2 cities/counties. As such convenience of travel isn't a major issue. This compares to say VFR traffic from the UK who would travel home to see family and friends several times a year, so convenience of being able to get the closest airport to home is very important.

Also you mention tourists don't want to start their holiday in Dublin, the opposite is actually the case. 95% of all tourists to the island of Ireland enter the country through Dublin, despite having the option of flying through other airports such as Belfast or Shannon.

Lastly, I think if you talked to the CEO of any of the hundreds of US multinationals based in Ireland, you'll find that frequency of travel is very important to them. And given the ever-growing business links between Ireland and the US, having high-frequency flights to the US is more important now than ever.

[mart901]

I hear all those points but it does seem like you are trying to find every way to say there shouldn't be flights from the US to NOC. Surely if NOC can attract an airline and make it work, whats the issue? Whilst I agree NOC is not exactly the epicenter of global aviation its done very well in the last few years and whilst the arguments for being business friendly and having links to say LHR do carry some weight, I think if it was likely to happen it would have done by now. Given that the airport has 3 daily flights to LON, daily to BHX, up to daily MAN,LPL,EDI,BRS and various scheduled and charter sun routes even Turkey this year why on earth not the US? Its much more likely to win on a US run than trying to flog a dead horse on european routes or yet another LON flight.
I smell a twinge of fear in some of the posts on here, that NOC may take from DUB or SNN, otherwise why the fuss? If you think it will fail don't worry, thats a mistake NOC would have to live with.