LONDON CITY - 2
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BALaddy
The rail argument doesn't wash with me. Manchester has a far superior rail service to London, is quicker, and is shorter in terms of distance. Despite this, and god know how many transcontinental flights direct from MAN to hubs such as Dubai, you still have BA to LHR, BA to LGW, BMI to LHR and VLM to LCY. Work that one out!
The rail argument doesn't wash with me. Manchester has a far superior rail service to London, is quicker, and is shorter in terms of distance. Despite this, and god know how many transcontinental flights direct from MAN to hubs such as Dubai, you still have BA to LHR, BA to LGW, BMI to LHR and VLM to LCY. Work that one out!
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Always worth chatting to your neighbour in the plane heading to/from London City and asking what journey they are actually making. I find that few are actually going to Canary Wharf of the City, but a surprising number are heading for significantly out-of-town points like Maidstone or Cambridge. Far more people start/finish their day business trips at their homes rather than at the office. These people are not going to transfer to a train from Euston, if for no other reason than they have driven to the airport and find this is impractical into Central London. Likewise those travelling by train are usualyl making journeys that would not be practical by air. Just because the city names are the same does not mean the markets are transferable.
You get this in other transportation as well. Put in a new Underground line across London and it will be filled, but few in it have stopped driving, the passengers have come from elsewhere, or just been generated; the socio-economic mix between the two modes will be quite different. Transport planning professionals "pretend" there is a diversion because politicians like to believe it, but it is false. I have massaged figures like this to get projects moved forward all my life
I live close to LCY and do a day return to Manchester on VLM for business meetings in Cheshire from time to time. It takes so much longer to go for the train that without the LCY air service I will try to arrange things differently so those in Cheshire come down to me.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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WHBM - Yes I have had similar conversations with people travelling on the LHR-MAN service which I have used regularly for several years. Many of them living in Bucks (like myself),Berkshire & Surrey do not want the hassle of trying to get into either Euston (really only accesible by public transport / no parking) or across to Watford Junction (with its lack of car parking spaces - even early in the morning!), compared to the numerous choices of car parking alternatives at LHR.
It may not be very green but it's certainly more convenient!
It may not be very green but it's certainly more convenient!
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Well unfortunately, the loads on the LCY-MAN route have been dropping and VLM will be pulling another aircraft from MAN leading to further job losses.
Such a shame as the airport taxes alone are greater than an advance train ticket, not to mention the extreme cost of car parking at LCY.
Such a shame as the airport taxes alone are greater than an advance train ticket, not to mention the extreme cost of car parking at LCY.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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I guess the owner of VLM sold the outfit just at the right time to Air France. Because of improved rail links, almost all of VLM's traditional destinations served from LCY are coming increasingly under threat. LPL has already diappeared, MAN is shrinking from its former heyday of 10 or so flights, as is Brussels which is now down to a token twice-daily service. The next destinations that probably will feel the pinch of the Eurostar will be ANR and RTM.
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The next destinations that probably will feel the pinch of the Eurostar will be ANR and RTM.
In terms of London-Antwerp (a journey I have undertaken for over 30 years).
VLM: 55 mins direct flight time, c£130 return
Eurostar: 3hrs actual travel time (incl. change of trains in Brussels), c£60 return
Notwithstanding our allegiance to VLM since 1993, they are now regrettably losing our custom on economics alone. The flight is much easier and preferable, but the taxes and charges alone account for over 50% of the fare. We know it's unfair and wish it wasn't so, but the massive difference in price speaks for itself.
I know we're not alone in switching modes recently, so would also be interested to see how VG cope.
Steviec9 - isn't this essentially the reason for Govt having decided to raise Air Passenger Duty, and thus for short journeys encourage people to go by land rather than flying ?
While a small difference in price means you will continue to fly as it's less hassle, a sufficiently large cost differential between train and plane means you are deciding to take the Eurostar and reduce CO2 emissions (or at least give airlines less incentive to fly a plane on this route)
Separately, I believe new rail lines will open between Brussels and Amsterdam around the end of 2009
While a small difference in price means you will continue to fly as it's less hassle, a sufficiently large cost differential between train and plane means you are deciding to take the Eurostar and reduce CO2 emissions (or at least give airlines less incentive to fly a plane on this route)
Separately, I believe new rail lines will open between Brussels and Amsterdam around the end of 2009
Join Date: Apr 2008
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davidjohnson6 - absolutely, so clearly it works! Just a bit galling because VLM are flogging their green credentials due to their exclusive use of turboprops... Using Eurostar does appeal to my 'green' nature but it just takes so much longer and you have to lug cases up/down stairs at Brussels when changing trains. It's so much easier to leave work, DLR to LCY, small airport, 20 mins wait, hop on plane, hop off plane, out of small airport in 5 mins and be eating my dinner with my family in just over 2hrs after leaving office. The Eurostar journey, though not unpleasant, is just 'clunkier' and feels more like a 'journey'.
The opening of the high speed line won't change things between Brussels and Antwerp, only north of Antwerp and across the Dutch border. Apparently it will signficantly reduce journey times to Amsterdam and the other main southern Dutch cities but Dutch Railways are making a bodge up with the new high speed trains and signalling - the line has been completed for ages but high speed services north of Antwerp are still awaited. However, the rebuilt Antwerpen Centraal station is almost as breathtaking as St Pancras!
The opening of the high speed line won't change things between Brussels and Antwerp, only north of Antwerp and across the Dutch border. Apparently it will signficantly reduce journey times to Amsterdam and the other main southern Dutch cities but Dutch Railways are making a bodge up with the new high speed trains and signalling - the line has been completed for ages but high speed services north of Antwerp are still awaited. However, the rebuilt Antwerpen Centraal station is almost as breathtaking as St Pancras!
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The new high-speed train(HSL in dutch) won't stop in Rotterdam. Passengers from Rotterdam will have to travel to Amsterdam or Breda first to catch the HSL.
So probably the HSL won't hurt service to/from RTM to much. Though the effect will certainly be felt but probably more on the AMS-LCY route.
So probably the HSL won't hurt service to/from RTM to much. Though the effect will certainly be felt but probably more on the AMS-LCY route.
Join Date: Mar 2003
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As we are just at talking about VLM cutting back at LCY, they have just today announced a thrice daily ANR-FRA service.
Which is interesting because there is a highspeed train link between Frankfurt and Brussels which takes just a little bit over three hours now. Wonder if it will work. VLM has tried ANR-MUC in the passt without success.
How are fares between FRA and LCY these days? Maybe VLM will offer a competitive fare for LCY-FRA with a short 10 minute or so stop at ANR.
Which is interesting because there is a highspeed train link between Frankfurt and Brussels which takes just a little bit over three hours now. Wonder if it will work. VLM has tried ANR-MUC in the passt without success.
How are fares between FRA and LCY these days? Maybe VLM will offer a competitive fare for LCY-FRA with a short 10 minute or so stop at ANR.
Jippie, Johnny
The high speed train from Amsterdam will certainly not compete with LCY-AMS route. There will not be a direct train from Amsterdam to London, one will have to change trains in Brussels. Journey time from Brussels to London by train is about 2 hours, plus another 2 from Amsterdam to Brussels. Flight time from AMS to LCY is less than one hour, so that makes it a total no-brainer.
LH
LH
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The Eurostar service from London through the Channel Tunnel is hamstrung by the most extraordinary set of "security" measures imposed by a specific quango, the "Inter Government Commission", that make any airport manager thankful they are not in this particular business. The ever-increasing costs involved are a significant part of why Eurostar in the end chose not to open its station at Stratford (which would obviously be significant competition to LCY), and why it sits today as an empty shell on the railway.
There is no prospect of expanding the Eurostar service from London to any points other than the ones already served, as all this "security" stuff, plus the requirement to segregate the domestic passengers from the ones travelling to London will apply, so extending Eurostar beyond Brussels to Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Cologne, etc is not going to happen. So passengers will need to change trains at Brussels and go through all the hoopla of security there. Furthermore, as many of the fares (including the ones quoted above) are for specific book-ahead seats on specific trains, non-refundable/changeable rather than being valid on any train, and as the connections are by a different ralway organisation, the connecting passenger risks it all should their train from say Amsterdam to Brussels get delayed for any reason. The trains are not timed or arranged to connect there.
If you know how it is with a "connection" between two Ryanair flights at Stansted, that will give you a pretty good idea. So Eurostar is not going to make much headway in any market beyond Brussels.
There is no prospect of expanding the Eurostar service from London to any points other than the ones already served, as all this "security" stuff, plus the requirement to segregate the domestic passengers from the ones travelling to London will apply, so extending Eurostar beyond Brussels to Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Cologne, etc is not going to happen. So passengers will need to change trains at Brussels and go through all the hoopla of security there. Furthermore, as many of the fares (including the ones quoted above) are for specific book-ahead seats on specific trains, non-refundable/changeable rather than being valid on any train, and as the connections are by a different ralway organisation, the connecting passenger risks it all should their train from say Amsterdam to Brussels get delayed for any reason. The trains are not timed or arranged to connect there.
If you know how it is with a "connection" between two Ryanair flights at Stansted, that will give you a pretty good idea. So Eurostar is not going to make much headway in any market beyond Brussels.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Out of curiosity and apologies for dwelling on trains, what is the hoopla in getting OFF? I know going to Gare du Nord the French check your documents at the London end and you just get off the train.
mostly harmless
Once the Dutch high speed line is eventually opened, times are scheduled as Amsterdam Central - Brussels 1 hr 44. Since the line soes via Schipol, Brussels times from there would be less. The line does indeed go via Rotterdam; I calculate the time from Brussels as 1hr 1. (Source Wikipedia)
This makes for a time London St P - Amsterdam around 3hrs 35.
Eurostar have said that they are investigating adding Amsterdam as a destination. In practice, running on the Dutch High Speed line will require either considerable modifications to the existing trains or purchase of new trains. The latter will have to wait until revised safety rules are agreed, this year or next.
With a 3hr 35 LonStP - Amst. Central time, the train will be competitive but not all-dominating. But quite clearly, this is not going to happen for at least 3-4 years. And a change of trains, with security on the London-bound trains, would detract from the train's attractiveness.
Skipness 1E:
You are right - zero formalities on exit from Eurostar at all points.
This makes for a time London St P - Amsterdam around 3hrs 35.
Eurostar have said that they are investigating adding Amsterdam as a destination. In practice, running on the Dutch High Speed line will require either considerable modifications to the existing trains or purchase of new trains. The latter will have to wait until revised safety rules are agreed, this year or next.
With a 3hr 35 LonStP - Amst. Central time, the train will be competitive but not all-dominating. But quite clearly, this is not going to happen for at least 3-4 years. And a change of trains, with security on the London-bound trains, would detract from the train's attractiveness.
Skipness 1E:
You are right - zero formalities on exit from Eurostar at all points.
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I have done Eurostar/Thalys from London to Cologne and I do not find the change at Brussels too troublesome. Quite honestly, going to/from Brussels is not much different than taking the train from/to DUS or CGN airport from Cologne railway station to connect with a flight (only that I sit in a comfortable train to Brussels rather than a local train serving the airport). Assuming that one has to get to the airport by public transport anyway, to change once at BRU is not a big deal if the schedules are sorted out to allow decent connections.