Eastern Airways
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MEL Question
Maybe this post might be off topic but ....
In a recent FCI issued regarding the use of O2 masks:
"as a general point, whilst we would not wish to remove the facility to apply sound airmanship, if it's in the checklist, its probably there for a reason".
This is signed Steve Jenkins Chief Pilot.
If this is the case, then why doesn't the same apply to the MEL?
It is common knowledge that he expects captains to ignore it if it helps to get the job done as it is mentioned in command assessments.
Surely, if it isn't in the MEL then it isn't there for a reason and the manufacturer or the authority would rather you didn't go flying without that component either not working or missing.
Am I just missing something or is this standard practice at all airlines?
I think I know the answer but I could be wrong and I would like clarification.
In a recent FCI issued regarding the use of O2 masks:
"as a general point, whilst we would not wish to remove the facility to apply sound airmanship, if it's in the checklist, its probably there for a reason".
This is signed Steve Jenkins Chief Pilot.
If this is the case, then why doesn't the same apply to the MEL?
It is common knowledge that he expects captains to ignore it if it helps to get the job done as it is mentioned in command assessments.
Surely, if it isn't in the MEL then it isn't there for a reason and the manufacturer or the authority would rather you didn't go flying without that component either not working or missing.
Am I just missing something or is this standard practice at all airlines?
I think I know the answer but I could be wrong and I would like clarification.
Last edited by Wetdream; 16th Jan 2012 at 12:05.
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Not so.
Oh sorry I must have misunderstood what I was told, silly me. I didn't realise a captain is able to get alleviation on the MEL by not saying anything to anyone about the fault and just pressing on.
Plus the fact no type was mentioned in my post.
Oh sorry I must have misunderstood what I was told, silly me. I didn't realise a captain is able to get alleviation on the MEL by not saying anything to anyone about the fault and just pressing on.
Plus the fact no type was mentioned in my post.
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Captains can not legally ignore the MEL, although when an aircraft has left the stand it's deemed to have departed and the MEL may I repeat may not apply and that is where airmanship/common sense comes in.
Yes it's true that some MEL are out of date, but the answer is to update them, the company or the commander can not pick and choose which bits to apply, a classic is aircraft NAV lights in simple terms if it's a single lamp type system then the failure of a red/green/white NAV lights will deck the aircraft if it is to be flown after dark, this goes back to the days of shipping, yet modern aircraft and ships are lit up like Xmas trees with cabin lights logo lights flashing beacons & strobes and that's before you consider TCAS and a radar environment!
Globespan went down the path of selective application of the MEL in respect of EPR gauges on the 757 that went states side, no one said it was unsafe in absolute terms but like flying under the Forth road bridge, it weren't legal, we all want to keep the show on the road, but it's a slippery slope for which you'll get no thanks when the s**t hits the fan, the company will walk away from you.
Yes it's true that some MEL are out of date, but the answer is to update them, the company or the commander can not pick and choose which bits to apply, a classic is aircraft NAV lights in simple terms if it's a single lamp type system then the failure of a red/green/white NAV lights will deck the aircraft if it is to be flown after dark, this goes back to the days of shipping, yet modern aircraft and ships are lit up like Xmas trees with cabin lights logo lights flashing beacons & strobes and that's before you consider TCAS and a radar environment!
Globespan went down the path of selective application of the MEL in respect of EPR gauges on the 757 that went states side, no one said it was unsafe in absolute terms but like flying under the Forth road bridge, it weren't legal, we all want to keep the show on the road, but it's a slippery slope for which you'll get no thanks when the s**t hits the fan, the company will walk away from you.
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Manxcat
Yes I would canx the flight, because what starts as a 20 minute may well change for all sorts of reasons, but more to the point it's easy to fix, unless of course I elected to go below flight level 100 and was allowed to do so, after all what's the point of having a MEL and then ignoring it?
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Dont forget that the MMEL and MEL are part of the ops manuals and as such form a vital part of your AOC. Operating out side of the AOC is a no no as far as I am concerned. Yes you could approach your FOI for a dispensation is an option but as far as MEL etc are concerned it is a line that is drawen and should not be crossed.
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Manxcat
If a company chooses not to have engineering support either directly or sub contracted that is a commercial risk, it should not become a flight safety risk, so you land and have a flat tyre, what you going to do? Of course common sense says you wouldn't take off again, but remember the MEL is there for the protection of you and your passengers, you may find your self with multiple MEL items each on their own pose no risk, but together they may increase the risk.
A Captain may ignore any SOP or minima if in his/her opinion the safety of the aircraft is at greater risk by adhering to said SOP or minima, but he/she had better by right, I have never seen in any company manual or instruction anything to the effect that " as Captain I may ignore any operating instruction or procedure if it is more commercial to do so or prevents a flight delay"
A Captain may ignore any SOP or minima if in his/her opinion the safety of the aircraft is at greater risk by adhering to said SOP or minima, but he/she had better by right, I have never seen in any company manual or instruction anything to the effect that " as Captain I may ignore any operating instruction or procedure if it is more commercial to do so or prevents a flight delay"
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Good airmanship has never been about ignoring the rules has it? Ignoring the MEL or any other rules and regulations seems to be more about commercial pressure than airmanship.
Manxcat get a grip, do you really think that the company are going to be right behind you in court backing you all the way? Assuming you are still alive that is.
You will be hung out to dry, and rightly so. You have (if you are indeed a pilot) been at Eastern too long.
I wouldn't want to sit next to you thats for sure, or worse still behind you.
Manxcat get a grip, do you really think that the company are going to be right behind you in court backing you all the way? Assuming you are still alive that is.
You will be hung out to dry, and rightly so. You have (if you are indeed a pilot) been at Eastern too long.
I wouldn't want to sit next to you thats for sure, or worse still behind you.
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Sorry for hijacking this thread, but I had a triple premiere yesterday - first flight on Eastern, first flight on a Jetstream 41 and first flight to Stavanger.
Nice it was, but stupid me forgot to take note of the registration of the registration of the Jetstream 41 involved - anyone from within Eastern (or ABZ) able to let me know which aircraft operated T3 4618 on 29JAN12?
Nice it was, but stupid me forgot to take note of the registration of the registration of the Jetstream 41 involved - anyone from within Eastern (or ABZ) able to let me know which aircraft operated T3 4618 on 29JAN12?
