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ISLE OF MAN

Old 24th Feb 2017, 18:49
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Belfast

I think one massive point on all this has been missed and is key. The aircraft in question actually made contact with the runway in BHD as witnessed by several staff, bounced then went airborne and returned to IOM.I suspect that ATC in BHD passed this onto the CAA
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 15:59
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On the same day a FlyBE Q400 used its prop to gouge a lovely trench along the side of Schiphol's runway, but the airline wasn't 'requested' to stop flying for the day as a result of the incident. Unfortunately Van Air seem to have been a small, out-of-country, easy target for the CAA. If they meet all safety and certification requirements then there was no basis to ground them even if one crew made an error of judgement; seems like one rule for the big boys and another for the tiddlers.
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 18:07
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Originally Posted by El Bunto
On the same day a FlyBE Q400 used its prop to gouge a lovely trench along the side of Schiphol's runway, but the airline wasn't 'requested' to stop flying for the day as a result of the incident. Unfortunately Van Air seem to have been a small, out-of-country, easy target for the CAA. If they meet all safety and certification requirements then there was no basis to ground them even if one crew made an error of judgement; seems like one rule for the big boys and another for the tiddlers.
One crew apparently operated their aircraft into forecast and actual winds outside of it's limitations, the other did not.

That's the difference, apparently.
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Old 25th Feb 2017, 21:56
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Vain Air still grounded



25 February 2017

FLIGHTS UPDATES FOR 26 FEBRUARY 2017 ONWARDS update 25/02/17 14:30

Citywing are now able to confirm flights details for Sunday 26 February and Monday 27 February.

Sunday 26 February.
Sunday 26 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Sunday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1450, arriving in Belfast at 1520. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1550 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1620. All passengers affected will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.

Sunday 26 February - Glasgow / Newcastle
The Titan Airways aircraft will also operate a combined flight for the Isle of Man passengers booked to fly to Glasgow and Newcastle, which will route via both airports. The flight is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1700, arriving in Glasgow at 1745. It will then depart Glasgow at 1825, arriving Newcastle at 1905. It will depart from Newcastle at 1940, arriving in the Isle of Man at 2015.

Sunday 26 February - Gloucester
Unfortunately there are no options for a Gloucester flight, instead, Isle of Man passengers will be transferred to a flight to Cardiff operated by North Flying, departing the Isle of Man at 1820 arriving at 1915. There will be road transport available to Gloucester. For the Gloucester to Isle of Man passengers unfortunately we will not have any options on Sunday but can offer the alternative of flying from Liverpool to the Isle of Man on Monday.

Sunday 26 February – Blackpool
Blackpool flights will be according to schedule and will be operated by North Flying.

Monday 27 February
Monday 27 February - Belfast
For Belfast there will be a Stansted-based Titan Airways Boeing 737 to operate one flight for all Monday’s Belfast-bound passengers, departing the Isle of Man at 1110, arriving in Belfast at 1140. This aircraft is planned to depart Belfast at 1220 and will be for all Isle of Man-bound passengers, arriving at 1250. All passengers will be transferred onto these flights and Citywing will endeavour to contact all passengers.

Monday 27 February – Blackpool / Glasgow / Gloucester
Unfortunately there are fewer aircraft options for Monday so we have had to work out a way to accommodate passengers travelling to and from the Isle of Man as best as possible. With this in mind we have planned one flight from the Isle of Man to Liverpool using the Titan Airways Boeing 737 aircraft. This flight is for all Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester passengers and is planned to depart the Isle of Man at 1330, arriving in Liverpool at 1410. Surface transport to the various destinations will be arranged. For all passengers from Blackpool, Glasgow and Gloucester, surface transport will be arranged to Liverpool to catch the flight to the Isle of Man which is scheduled to depart at 1450, arriving in the Isle of Man at 1530.
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Old 26th Feb 2017, 15:45
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UPDATED: Disruption for Blackpool passengers as flight operator grounded - Blackpool Gazette

A UK CAA spokesperson said: “The UK Civil Aviation Authority has suspended Czech-registered operator Van Air’s permission to fly in the UK. "This follows an incident involving a Van Air aircraft at Isle of Man Airport on February 23. "The incident is being investigated by the Czech civil aviation authorities, who have regulatory oversight of Van Air. "
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 08:14
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SAAB 340A SP-KPR currently passing Sheffield inbound das flight VAA200 to operate Citywing services for the next few days.

I'm not a big fan of them but fair play to Citywing for keeping flight going instead of throwing-in the towel.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 10:22
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Interesting that Sprintair uses VAA callsign if Vanair's operating licence has been revoked in uk.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 11:14
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Vanair don't have a UK Operating Licence to revoke.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 12:05
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Also an ICAO designator can be allocated to any organisation ( but not an individual ) with an business activity involving aircraft operations, not necessarily commercial or revenue operations. So they can hold it even if they ultimately had their AOC revoked.

It is odd seeing Sprint using VAA though, perhaps it's easier for Citywing from an operational perspective.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 12:51
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And it just shows how operations are managed from the IOM regardless of who the operating carrier are. You can't regulate them because you can't nail jelly to the wall.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 15:26
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340

Is the Saab 340 allowed to operate into Blackpool?
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 17:52
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Originally Posted by eye2eye5
Is the Saab 340 allowed to operate into Blackpool?
The answer is on Facebook.com/citywing
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 18:00
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What's the drama all about? You have dozens and dozens of foreign airlines operating into UK airports day in and day out that are licenced abroad. Are they all jelly on the wall? European airlines follow standards set by EASA, so what exactly is the difference between Van Air and Aer Arann operating to/from IOM? They are both foreign, but EU-based airlines. What apparently comes into play here is some sort of grudge against the Eastern Europe part of the story... If anyone is to blame, it must be Citywing - which is a company, I understand, not run by foreigner.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 18:19
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virginblue, to remove any doubt I think that Citywing are the jelly on the wall not any properly licensed EU carrier.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 18:55
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Saab 340

Originally Posted by lfc84
The answer is on Facebook.com/citywing
I see the Facebook posting quoting the revised timetable, do we assume that the aircraft is limited to max 19 passengers?
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 19:46
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Virginblue Could you explain how it's a 'grudge against Eastern Europe' when a Polish airline (Sprint) have been contracted in? It's not much of a grudge if one Eastern European airline is being replaced with another Eastern European airline.

Citywing are an airline, until things go wrong, then they just become a ticket seller and play the victim.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:08
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As well as the cost of this mess (in terms of cancellations, compensation, and chartering costs), I wonder how it leaves them in a legal sense. Could someone explain how the "ticket seller" loophole works legally?

I understood (probably incorrectly) that it worked either because they acted as agent on behalf of a principal, or because the flights they "operate" are <= 19 seats, or both.

However I can't see how what's unfolding doesn't give lie to either or both of these suggestions.

They may be continually updating their website with details of who is operating their flights on a particular day, but the truth of the matter is that if I, for example, book a flight to Gloucester for this Friday, they have no idea who will be operating it (or indeed if it will be operated, but that is another story). They clearly have no contract to operate the flight in place with anyone that they can tell me they are acting on behalf of at the point of my contract with them.

Additionally, I'm guessing that a Titan 737 has more than 19 seats?

Last edited by 01475; 28th Feb 2017 at 21:37.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:25
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There is no 19 seats limit. That is only relevant if you have an AOC and apply for an A Operating Licence (20 seats and up and subject to financial regulation) or a B Operating Licence (19 seats and under and not subject to financial regulation.

There has to be a contract between the airline and the ticket seller and when a passenger buys a ticket, that ticket has to be immediately issued informing the passenger what airline they have been booked on.

I would think that with Citywing not knowing from one day to the next who the carrier is going to be, it has been a challenge to comply with the regulations.
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 21:53
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Thanks.

I fear that even if they survive financially they will be pounced upon just as soon as they get the mess fixed, which would be a shame as it may add Gloucester and Blackpool to the growing list of airports that have seen an end to commercial flying :-(
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Old 28th Feb 2017, 22:04
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Additionally, I'm guessing that a Titan 737 has more than 19 seats?
Yes, but I suspect the counter-argument that an ATOL-exempt travel organiser would make is that temporarily they cannot adhere to letter of the 'Small Aircraft' restriction because of the CAA's own actions...

The other wriggle-space is provided by the wording 'on flights on aircraft with a maximum capacity of 19 or fewer seats available for passengers'. It doesn't specify *certificated* capacity, just the maximum made available.
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