Carlisle
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Wonder what airlines ,they will get flying from there?, Guess Jet2 and other locos will be looking at it ? Would J2 do better there than blk,being futher away from man.
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Take-off, suggest you go and take some reality pills and look at a map with population markings.
Fantastic that there is a development plan but I struggle to see where the passenger loads are going to come from to make any route commercially viable. You get stuck between potential loads and required frequency to make a route viable.
I can't see any of the major locos adding to their current operational bases at NCL, GLA, BLK and MAN.
However, never say never!
Fantastic that there is a development plan but I struggle to see where the passenger loads are going to come from to make any route commercially viable. You get stuck between potential loads and required frequency to make a route viable.
I can't see any of the major locos adding to their current operational bases at NCL, GLA, BLK and MAN.
However, never say never!
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If you read the airport web document hyperlinked earlier in this thread it makes it clear that they are not after the likes of FR and EZY. They know their catchment area limitations, and possibly how to try and appease the green lobby (if that is ever possible!). Therefore, the likes of Eastern and the odd flybe smaller a/c may have a chance.
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Ryan Air will no doubt use it and call it Manchester or Birmingham on their routes 
after all they can take you to some cities abroad and you don't even land in the same Country I believe.
after all they can take you to some cities abroad and you don't even land in the same Country I believe.
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GRoundhand`
Not everyone wants to trek down the m6/m61 car park,seeing as 2 weeks last friday, it took me 6 hours to get from blackpool to Evesham(Thats in the midlands -just incase you don't have a map handy!!) tripcomp on car gave an average speed by time i got to bhm of 33, all im saying is maybe on some of the more pop destinations jet2 or who ever could do odd flight or 2 a week, not saying its goin to turn into heathrow over nite!!!
Rite off to take several'chillpills' , and out tomorw for a newkeyboard with a space bar that works!!!!!
Not everyone wants to trek down the m6/m61 car park,seeing as 2 weeks last friday, it took me 6 hours to get from blackpool to Evesham(Thats in the midlands -just incase you don't have a map handy!!) tripcomp on car gave an average speed by time i got to bhm of 33, all im saying is maybe on some of the more pop destinations jet2 or who ever could do odd flight or 2 a week, not saying its goin to turn into heathrow over nite!!!
Rite off to take several'chillpills' , and out tomorw for a newkeyboard with a space bar that works!!!!!
Last edited by take-off; 25th Jul 2007 at 08:14. Reason: need a bl---dy spell checker too!!!
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Lots of reasons to re-align - old runway shot to hell, sub-base, surface, infringements, and, not least, putting in ILS on runway 25 has approach design issues some 9 miles out on the edge of the RAF Spadeadam danger area. Also need to continue to operate while construction underway. Runway will be code 4d and about 1830m total length - anticipate aircraft types such as J41; ATR 42/72; Q400. Perhaps up to 5 rotations per day - 2 to London (Luton? Stansted?) - can't afford slots elsewhere, at least not to start with. perhaps DUB BHD SOU. AMS would be good for interlining med & long-haul.
Comments on pax are spot on - small catchment area will never deliver 75% loads for B737 ops, so no low cost carriers here. Planning application will go in late September. Hope for result by end of year. Works commence early 2008 and up and running early 2009. Very tough timescale. www.carlisleairport.co.uk has lots of detail. Wish us luck!
Comments on pax are spot on - small catchment area will never deliver 75% loads for B737 ops, so no low cost carriers here. Planning application will go in late September. Hope for result by end of year. Works commence early 2008 and up and running early 2009. Very tough timescale. www.carlisleairport.co.uk has lots of detail. Wish us luck!
Wotmesir?
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The catchment area could be a lot bigger than people believe. I live near Carlisle and the number of taxi firms that advertise fares to GLA/PIK/NCL/EDI/MAN/MME starting at 150 return take up a few pages in the phone book.
Unfortunately I drive trains for a living and the first class return fare from Carlisle to Euston is well over 350.
Surely some carrier could do a Mon/Fri out and back with a 70 seater and undercut the Virgin hegemony.
Unfortunately I drive trains for a living and the first class return fare from Carlisle to Euston is well over 350.
Surely some carrier could do a Mon/Fri out and back with a 70 seater and undercut the Virgin hegemony.
From todays Carlisle News & Star
PLANS to transform Carlisle Airport into a passenger and freight hub were given initial approval by councillors today. A special meeting of the city council’s development control committee ruled it was ‘minded to approve’ the plan, by Stobart Air, subject to conditions.
The committee will meet again next Friday to hammer out requirements it will need operators to sign up to before giving full consent. The plan will then go to the Government Office North West which will decide whether to call a public inquiry.
Stobart Air boss Andrew Tinkler said he was “pleased” with the decision. During the meeting, residents of nearby Irthington urged the council to refuse permission, saying the plan would endanger lives in the village and create extra traffic, noise and pollution.
Airport director Richard Gordon put the case for the airport, saying it would help bring jobs and prosperity to the area. Councillors ruled they were ‘minded to approve’ the plan, but stressed they could change their mind at next week’s meeting.
PLANS to transform Carlisle Airport into a passenger and freight hub were given initial approval by councillors today. A special meeting of the city council’s development control committee ruled it was ‘minded to approve’ the plan, by Stobart Air, subject to conditions.
The committee will meet again next Friday to hammer out requirements it will need operators to sign up to before giving full consent. The plan will then go to the Government Office North West which will decide whether to call a public inquiry.
Stobart Air boss Andrew Tinkler said he was “pleased” with the decision. During the meeting, residents of nearby Irthington urged the council to refuse permission, saying the plan would endanger lives in the village and create extra traffic, noise and pollution.
Airport director Richard Gordon put the case for the airport, saying it would help bring jobs and prosperity to the area. Councillors ruled they were ‘minded to approve’ the plan, but stressed they could change their mind at next week’s meeting.
de minimus non curat lex
Pleased to hear that progress is being made to provide an adequate airport.
Let us hope that a public enquiry is NOT required as this will delay matters, and perhaps put the whole project in jeopardy.
Let us hope that a public enquiry is NOT required as this will delay matters, and perhaps put the whole project in jeopardy.
niknak
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I still cannot see how this will be a sustainable investment for Stobart Air, unless they get at least 80% of the funding from the Government or the EEC (as Peel did at Finningly), they'll never get their money back.
In fact they'd be quite justified in closing the airport and earn more revenue from plan 2 (the business/retail park that waits in the wings).
Richard Gordon? No relation to the Lydd "Gordon Clan" I suppose?
In fact they'd be quite justified in closing the airport and earn more revenue from plan 2 (the business/retail park that waits in the wings).
Richard Gordon? No relation to the Lydd "Gordon Clan" I suppose?
Been following this quite closely in the local press, and no mention of any outside funding. Stobart are looking to relocate their HQ to the site, but I can't see the business case for the aviation developments.
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Withdrawal threat to airport plan
A company which planned to construct a new airport in Carlisle has threatened to withdraw the proposals.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7330244.stm
A company which planned to construct a new airport in Carlisle has threatened to withdraw the proposals.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7330244.stm
Stobart not happy with the conditions being imposed by the council (and the way they have been imposed. Councils full conditions here:
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/co...itions_in_full
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/co...itions_in_full
de minimus non curat lex
"The 63 Conditions"
Here we go again....City Council at its best.
63 conditions are listed by the council for the project.
Some are sensible. During the constructon phase [31 et seq] which accord with good practice. Avoidance of pollution etc
Some will be imposed by EU law which the council have no option but to include. The tree huggers would start a legal challenge.
I could go on.......but the bottom line is that you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs.
A measure of practicality needs to be applied to achieve the ultimate goal.
This is not some form of academic exercise to produce a submission as part of the final year degree course in planning matters.
The council need to appreciate that this project will generate wealth and jobs for the area and need to take a pragmatic approach and sit down and negotiate. Otherwise as sure as night follows day, this golden [and final?] opportunity will melt away.
And finally think about the airport staff...they must feel somewhat "frustrated"
63 conditions are listed by the council for the project.
Some are sensible. During the constructon phase [31 et seq] which accord with good practice. Avoidance of pollution etc
Some will be imposed by EU law which the council have no option but to include. The tree huggers would start a legal challenge.
I could go on.......but the bottom line is that you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs.
A measure of practicality needs to be applied to achieve the ultimate goal.
This is not some form of academic exercise to produce a submission as part of the final year degree course in planning matters.
The council need to appreciate that this project will generate wealth and jobs for the area and need to take a pragmatic approach and sit down and negotiate. Otherwise as sure as night follows day, this golden [and final?] opportunity will melt away.
And finally think about the airport staff...they must feel somewhat "frustrated"
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You couldn't make it up!
No wonder they are upset with the conditions, including:
58) A survey for badgers shall be undertaken by an appropriately qualified ecologist not more than 14 days before the works hereby approved commence and the results shall be submitted to the Local Planning Authority for approval. Should evidence of badgers be found, the applicants shall ensure that all statutory procedures must be followed according to the relevant legislation protecting this species. In addition, in terms of site management obligations any holes excavated during development work shall be covered at night to prevent badgers from falling into them and being injured;
58) A survey for badgers shall be undertaken by an appropriately qualified ecologist not more than 14 days before the works hereby approved commence and the results shall be submitted to the Local Planning Authority for approval. Should evidence of badgers be found, the applicants shall ensure that all statutory procedures must be followed according to the relevant legislation protecting this species. In addition, in terms of site management obligations any holes excavated during development work shall be covered at night to prevent badgers from falling into them and being injured;
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CAX economics
I don't think there is any airport, big or small, with commercial flights, that makes money on the aviation side of the business - income from landing fees, hangerage, fuel sales, pax handling only. The fixed costs (do you know what air traffic controllers and firemen are paid?) are so high. They make it elsewhere - car parks, retail concessions, rentals and other on-airport developments. That's what we will do - get other group companies, Stobart and WA developments to relocate here and pay us (good commercial) rent to balance the books - then it makes sense.
We've met again with the Council - about 10 conditions to be resolved, fingers crossed
We've met again with the Council - about 10 conditions to be resolved, fingers crossed
niknak
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Caxsunray.
Correct, airports make very little money from landing fees.
As you say, the vast majority of profit is made from concessions within the terminal areas and that takes passengers, hundreds of 1000s of them and hundreds of 1000s of passengers each year is something that Carlisle Airport is not going to get under any circumstances.
Carlisle just doesn't have the customer base and the catchment area is well served by the likes of Newcastle and Glasgow for the most competetive/profitable passenger routes.
Money can be made from freight, but not enough to justify the proposed expansion of the airport.
Given that planning permission lasts between 3 and 5 years, I suspect that Stobart are going to use the planning permission approval to expand their road freight transport operations at Carlisle airport, but make none of the much lauded improvements to the airport itself.
Eventually, they would perfectly justified in saying that the airport expansion plan is after all, no longer viable, but they will continue to expand the road freight/industrial area into the existing airport infrastructure, thereby guaranteeing a major contribution to the local economy (which the airport itself never will).
Correct, airports make very little money from landing fees.
As you say, the vast majority of profit is made from concessions within the terminal areas and that takes passengers, hundreds of 1000s of them and hundreds of 1000s of passengers each year is something that Carlisle Airport is not going to get under any circumstances.
Carlisle just doesn't have the customer base and the catchment area is well served by the likes of Newcastle and Glasgow for the most competetive/profitable passenger routes.
Money can be made from freight, but not enough to justify the proposed expansion of the airport.
Given that planning permission lasts between 3 and 5 years, I suspect that Stobart are going to use the planning permission approval to expand their road freight transport operations at Carlisle airport, but make none of the much lauded improvements to the airport itself.
Eventually, they would perfectly justified in saying that the airport expansion plan is after all, no longer viable, but they will continue to expand the road freight/industrial area into the existing airport infrastructure, thereby guaranteeing a major contribution to the local economy (which the airport itself never will).