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Old 30th Jun 2016, 10:46
  #4321 (permalink)  
 
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BREXIT is not going to change much, be honest, the sky will not fall in.
Nothing will become clear until the dust settles on the Tory leadership vote and Boris has been stabbed by Gove today and looks less likely.
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 11:24
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Boris not standing for Tory leader. LHR RW3 could be on.
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 12:11
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Cameron should clear LHR R3 as a parting gift. Would be a good legacy.
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 15:18
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DaveReidUK said:

Neither airport would contemplate building a new runway if they knew the competition was also doing so, for obvious reasons.
I don't think it is obvious:
Both airports now operating at or near capacity?
Look at what happens operationally to either if anything (even relatively minor, like strong winds dictating greater separation) affects the arr/dep rate?
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 15:41
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
Both airports now operating at or near capacity?
Look at what happens operationally to either if anything (even relatively minor, like strong winds dictating greater separation) affects the arr/dep rate?
All of those comments are perfectly correct.

But think about it. An additional runway, at either airport, only makes business sense if a decent ROI can be achieved, in other words if you can utilise it adequately by attracting sufficient new traffic. That's a lot easier to do if the other guy is still capacity-constrained.

If both airports were foolish enough to go ahead simultaneously with a new runway, they would be slugging it out for many years to come in competition with each other and both would struggle to get an adequate return on investment.

Both Gatwick and Heathrow CEOs have said as much in the past. You could argue that that's just posturing, but they aren't stupid.
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 20:13
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Well another day.

We will soon be in "failed state" territory at this rate.

Presume Gatwick CEO put that Champagne back on ice after the Johnson debacle.

And LHR re entered the fray with this interesting comment.

And at a time of uncertainty, a Ł16bn privately funded infrastructure investment will create jobs and growth across the UK."

Well bit late in the day but appears Heathrow CEO now indicating they pay for supporting infastructure themselves or has price of the runway gone up 4bn ?

I'm sure it was lower than this !

...hope sombody told the shareholders !
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 21:19
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Bagso

The Dutch PM has already alluded to such a proposition.

Mussolini: said a fish rots frm the head down and in a political sense we are already chewing on last years tail. (Sorry Mods no offence )
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 22:39
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Rumours circulating Westminster that Transport Sec will announce PM has passed Heathrow decision to new leader.
Ah, was wondering what that racket was, now it's clear: the noise of cans being kicked down the road, again (yawn).



They both need new runways
Indeed both do need new rwys.



Neither airport would contemplate building a new runway if they knew the competition was also doing so, for obvious reasons.

Though that's academic, as it's the one scenario that Davies specifically ruled out.
Not quite, LHR could go ahead knowing that there will be payback, they have some 40 carriers waiting for slots. A new rwy means slots for all - incumbents as well as newcomers. For LGW it is not as clear cut.

If both airports were allowed to build rwys, and amongst leadership candidates only Andrea Ledsom has suggested this, it's likely that LHR would start building immediately.

LGW would have to cope with the potential emptying of the "waiting room", with U2 starting an operation at LHR possibly at the cost of LGW expansion, and the possibility of BA and VS concentrating most (BA) or all (VS) of their operations at LHR.


DR,

It's not academic. Davies no more has the power to 'rule anything out' than you or I.

Govt can ignore him completely if they decide to.
Looks like they already have, there's no rwy construction activity in my neck of the woods!


Cameron should clear LHR R3 as a parting gift. Would be a good legacy.
Exactly. Since the government appear to be having such a problem in making a decision, it is surprising that they did not slip an announcement out during the referendum campaign when attention was diverted.


I don't think it is obvious:
Both airports now operating at or near capacity?
Look at what happens operationally to either if anything (even relatively minor, like strong winds dictating greater separation) affects the arr/dep rate?
Or in the case of LHR, over capacity.


All of those comments are perfectly correct.

But think about it. An additional runway, at either airport, only makes business sense if a decent ROI can be achieved, in other words if you can utilise it adequately by attracting sufficient new traffic. That's a lot easier to do if the other guy is still capacity-constrained.

If both airports were foolish enough to go ahead simultaneously with a new runway, they would be slugging it out for many years to come in competition with each other and both would struggle to get an adequate return on investment.

Both Gatwick and Heathrow CEOs have said as much in the past. You could argue that that's just posturing, but they aren't stupid.
Yes, that is why, in the event of both getting the go-ahead, LHR could start building immediately, while LGW may be hesitant (see above).
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 23:09
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Originally Posted by Fairdealfrank
Yes, that is why, in the event of both getting the go-ahead, LHR could start building immediately, while LGW may be hesitant (see above).
We'll never know, since that's not going to happen, so we can argue about it till the cows come home.
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 09:54
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Fairdealfrank

'They have some 40 carriers waiting for slots'

That was said before the likes of Avianca, Garuda Indonesian, Philippines Airlines and Vietnam Airlines gained slots at LHR!

I personally can't see how another 36 airlines are waiting for slots at LHR, maybe more like 10 at least.
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 10:04
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Originally Posted by canberra97
Fairdealfrank

'They have some 40 carriers waiting for slots'

That was said before the likes of Avianca, Garuda Indonesian, Philippines Airlines and Vietnam Airlines gained slots at LHR!

I personally can't see how another 36 airlines are waiting for slots at LHR, maybe more like 10 at least.
I'm sure Easyjet, Ryanair, Monarch would like to fly from LHR!!
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 13:14
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....Easy for sure, and Flybe (they have both said they would come if Rwy 3 is built).

As for LGW, MAN built a second runway off the back of half the pax/movements that LGW currently handles. Being "the worlds busiest single runway Airport" cannot last forever. Not if they are serious about their position as the UK's no. 2.
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 15:16
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But if EZY, MON,FLYBE etc etc Move to Heathrow, Gatwick won't need a second runway. ...

Infact it won't even need one... surely all airlines would move over en mass.

It's USP as a charter/ overflow disappears in an instant!
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 15:37
  #4334 (permalink)  
 
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Heathrow remains a fairly pricey airport to use, LGW could complete on price but they've spent a small fortune on improvements themselves that need a decent ROI.

easyJet have already checked out T4 at LHR but they have their own issues to deal with with #brexit meaning G- aircraft based overseas won't be as er, easy as before.
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 15:49
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But if EZY, MON,FLYBE etc etc Move to Heathrow, Gatwick won't need a second runway. ...
I believe that EZY have said that any flying from LHR would be complementary to that at LGW. BEE only fly to NQY from LGW these days, so that would also be complementary and they have openly stated that they are looking (although I can't see it in reality) at operating from NHT if they can't get into LHR.

Meanwhile, I expect Boris feels like being on an "island" far away right now.
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Old 1st Jul 2016, 22:40
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....Easy for sure, and Flybe (they have both said they would come if Rwy 3 is built).
U2 stated as much in evidence to the Airports Commission and produced a list of potential routes.

BE requested permission for operations from NHT, which was refused, in the interim, or maybe permanently (hedging bets?).

BE could be ideally suited to provide feeder flights for the thin routes which need smaller aircraft than those owned by BA, U2, etc.. Could also see BD regional returning to LHR to undertake this function.



As for LGW, MAN built a second runway off the back of half the pax/movements that LGW currently handles. Being "the worlds busiest single runway Airport" cannot last forever. Not if they are serious about their position as the UK's no. 2.
You would think so, and also that being "the worlds busiest two runway Airport" couldn't for ever.

Hardly an accolade is it?!



But if EZY, MON,FLYBE etc etc Move to Heathrow, Gatwick won't need a second runway. ...

Infact it won't even need one... surely all airlines would move over en mass.

It's USP as a charter/ overflow disappears in an instant!
Better start organising a 4th rwy at LHR then.

Seriously, carriers that don't need to move accross, such as point-to-point leisure flights, charter ops, no frills, etc., would remain. Some carriers would do both airports. There could also be movement from LTN and/or STN, unless, of course, LGW wacks up its charges. LGW has form on this, hence BE's departure from there a couple of years ago, all that's left of BE is a PSO route (NQY).
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Old 2nd Jul 2016, 09:52
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The point about BEE was more about introduction of new service.

Yes they would be well suited to domestic thin routes but if they kicked LGW in touch based on its charges 2 years ago there is not a cat in hells chance of them being at a level that would attract them to LHR in 10 years time.....!

The taxes alone are likely to be 4 times BEEs cheapest fair NOW ...!
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Old 3rd Jul 2016, 07:37
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UK manufacturers support expansion at Heathrow

UK's EEF The Manufacturers Organisation responded (30-Jun-2016) to the government's deferral of a decision for capacity expansion in the South East. EEF research found:

78% of manufacturers with a business need for air freight access say that expansion of Heathrow would best support their company’s export ambitions;
53% of all manufacturers think that additional capacity at Heathrow would deliver the best economic benefits to the wider UK – compared to 13% saying the same of Gatwick;
Manufacturers also rate Heathrow more highly than Gatwick for its ability to attract airlines offering the best business connectivity to both traditional and emerging markets.
Given where manufacturing is mostly located, good to see some strong support for LHR.
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Old 3rd Jul 2016, 17:44
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The EEF are a laughing joke of a trade association - they have about three members and with the exception of Terry Scuoler (of Feranti origin) my cat knows more about manufacturing- The rest of the executive team are bankers and the usual multiple boardroom members from the merger take over and asset stripping 30% equity venture capitalists companies including Capita.
They know nought about actually making tangible things (other than personal wealth) and probably know where Mansion House is , however less so Erdington or Trafford Park
Their endorsement is the usual London centric focus and most certainly unrepresentative of any specific regional industry support they claim to represent.
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Old 3rd Jul 2016, 18:13
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Wow rutankrd, clearly hit a sensitive spot.
Originally Posted by rutankrd
London centric focus and most certainly unrepresentative of any specific regional industry support they claim to represent.
Is there a non-London centric industry association you do like?
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