British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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I'm pretty sure that the common factor between the two scenarios isn't that it was a BA744 Captain? I'd hazard a guess that the common link between the two is that wingtips were struck.
You write that you were LUCKY enough not to scrape the wingtips of your DC-10, but do you consider this luck or skill on your part? I think that, in situations such as these, I'd always struggle to criticize from the position of a perfect flying record. Would you be prepared to share your biggest aviation faux pas which, on any other day, could have contributed to a hull loss, but on that day you were LUCKY?
If, by some minimal chance, you have none to share then I'd struggle to conclude more than you are a liar or you were unaware of the event unfolding. Any other conclusion would make you super-human.
In no way is this intended to be a personal criticism, it's just a question of perspective.
You write that you were LUCKY enough not to scrape the wingtips of your DC-10, but do you consider this luck or skill on your part? I think that, in situations such as these, I'd always struggle to criticize from the position of a perfect flying record. Would you be prepared to share your biggest aviation faux pas which, on any other day, could have contributed to a hull loss, but on that day you were LUCKY?
If, by some minimal chance, you have none to share then I'd struggle to conclude more than you are a liar or you were unaware of the event unfolding. Any other conclusion would make you super-human.
In no way is this intended to be a personal criticism, it's just a question of perspective.
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ever since the 60's Jan Smuts Airport as it was known then, had that kink to the left after leaving the main apron, to get to the holding point for RNY03, so this crew would have operated into O R Tambo many times before, and travelled this path before many times before this..this can only be ascribed to a momentary loss of concentration and situational awareness on this day.
It is only human to err
on this old photo of Jan Smuts the taxiway -M as it is today is approx behind and slightly beyond the vertical fin of the SAA B747-244
It is only human to err
on this old photo of Jan Smuts the taxiway -M as it is today is approx behind and slightly beyond the vertical fin of the SAA B747-244
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Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?
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NLR is due for withdrawal in Jan-14 and NLE in Feb-14
A d-check for either of these could very well be more cost effective than repairing NLL.
3 guys in the cockpit and nobody looking ahead?
A d-check for either of these could very well be more cost effective than repairing NLL.
3 guys in the cockpit and nobody looking ahead?
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Taxiing a large commercial aircraft around a major international airport at night can be a more challenging task than navigating the same aircraft between two airports stretched thousands of miles apart. It demands complete attention, careful prior briefing, tip top SA and teamwork. Taxiing is littered with threats. I feel sorry for the two Nigel's. Not pleasant.
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What a team of total incompetents, the Control Tower told them to take one taxi-way, so they took another, a wrong one, a narrow one, and then didn't bother to look out of the windows, and maybe note a 'fairly large building on our Starboard Captain', lets just plod on, don't bother to get a wing tip man, a Follow Me wagon, you could not make this up, a total almighty c**k-up, and we still have people who are 'sorry for the crew'. They should be hung/drawn and quartered, they are not fit to occupy the Flight Deck of a 4 jet airliner, the most complicated position for all of those individuals is a sit-on motor mower. And do not continue with this BA safety bit, only months ago did an Airbus take-off with the engine cowlings open, no walk round, or couldn't see, the rest of us have managed to fly the Airbus without similar problems, but we do do walk rounds and don't mind getting our trousers slightly soiled by kneeling down.
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OK, Wisden, we heard you the first time.
Serious as this incident is, may I remind everyone that the world's worst ever aviation accident was contributed to by a missed taxiway. At least nobody died. Aircraft are replaceable, people aren't.
Serious as this incident is, may I remind everyone that the world's worst ever aviation accident was contributed to by a missed taxiway. At least nobody died. Aircraft are replaceable, people aren't.
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Just curious, but what's a BA 737 doing in JNB? Lost?
If you look closely you'll see it's a ZS registered a/c. Comair operate the BA franchise with domestic and regional services, about 10 rotations a day.
The only place I have seen a 727 in BA colours.
If you look closely you'll see it's a ZS registered a/c. Comair operate the BA franchise with domestic and regional services, about 10 rotations a day.
The only place I have seen a 727 in BA colours.
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WW
Your response defies belief, oh perfect one
Everything for you is obviously so cut and dried, so black and white.
Q. Have you ever operated a large commercial jet aircraft on a night departure from darkest Afica which is not your home base? I suspect not.
Well I have, and from JNB as Captain on a B747-400. It is a trap waiting for the unwary/momentarily distracted, and I have always been highly aware of that taxiway intersection, and getting it wrong.
Now I am not absolving the FC of responsibility, but suggest that there will be some mitigating circumatances that any crew could have fallen foul of on the wrong day. To castigate them for that is premature. One thing is for sure, they, more than anyone will be replaying events in their minds and wondering what if/what did we do/why. They certainly didn't intend to do it and could do with some sympathy and consideration right now until the full circumstances are understood.
A just society will try to learn from the mistakes of the crew to try and put in place mechanisms that stop other crews making the same mistakes in future. I suspect that some of that will fall onto the airport operator with better signage.
One of the things that aviators hang their hat on is the adage that you must learn from other's mistakes as you don't have time to make them al your self.
Your response defies belief, oh perfect one
Everything for you is obviously so cut and dried, so black and white.
Q. Have you ever operated a large commercial jet aircraft on a night departure from darkest Afica which is not your home base? I suspect not.
Well I have, and from JNB as Captain on a B747-400. It is a trap waiting for the unwary/momentarily distracted, and I have always been highly aware of that taxiway intersection, and getting it wrong.
Now I am not absolving the FC of responsibility, but suggest that there will be some mitigating circumatances that any crew could have fallen foul of on the wrong day. To castigate them for that is premature. One thing is for sure, they, more than anyone will be replaying events in their minds and wondering what if/what did we do/why. They certainly didn't intend to do it and could do with some sympathy and consideration right now until the full circumstances are understood.
A just society will try to learn from the mistakes of the crew to try and put in place mechanisms that stop other crews making the same mistakes in future. I suspect that some of that will fall onto the airport operator with better signage.
One of the things that aviators hang their hat on is the adage that you must learn from other's mistakes as you don't have time to make them al your self.
congratulations on the most ignorant and arrogant post in the history of PPRuNe
We're talking OBE material here.Got it, Comair. Haven't been to ZA in a few years.
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They should be hung/drawn and quartered, they are not fit to occupy the Flight Deck of a 4 jet airliner
You can bet there is a big human factors element to this, be it distraction, fatigue, poor lighting, poor signage, workload management and so on...
As has been alluded to in this thread already, as flight crew we are expected to do more and more with a little less support. In my own op, single engine taxi is new to us and results in the FO being heads down for approx 2 mins during the taxi. The Captain is on his own during this time.
Is this safe? Yes, if managed correctly. Is it commercially important, yes, the bean counters love it.
This crew were also operating a night flight home, it's possible they only rested for 12-15 odd hours before this having operated a night flight.
The eventual report will no doubt open our eyes again to a fresh set of threats, and promptly be filed in the archives of history.
Still feel sorry for the crew through, bit rubbish to bend one.
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What a team of total incompetents, the Control Tower told them to take one taxi-way, so they took another, a wrong one, a narrow one, and then didn't bother to look out of the windows, and maybe note a 'fairly large building on our Starboard Captain', lets just plod on, don't bother to get a wing tip man, a Follow Me wagon, you could not make this up, a total almighty c**k-up, and we still have people who are 'sorry for the crew'.
Back to playing with your video games now while us adults talk.
Wisdom Wonder,
he who sits in seat 0a of an airliner and has never missed a taxiway has my true admiration. Most of us however were lucky enough not to have anything untoward stand in the way during this experience.
So no need for You to cast fire and brimstone on those who had no such luck.
he who sits in seat 0a of an airliner and has never missed a taxiway has my true admiration. Most of us however were lucky enough not to have anything untoward stand in the way during this experience.
So no need for You to cast fire and brimstone on those who had no such luck.
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Although it seems very likely that the crew will be blamed for this, and possibly correctly so, I am definitely in the 'there but for the grace of God go I' category here. There are very few professional pilots who have not made taxiing errors at one time or other, and I am no exception. Whenever I read anything like this I am sent back to the drawing board to think how could I avoid this happening to me. There are others out there who are baying for blood, but that is sadly the nature of the 'Monday morning quarterback' mentality that pervades large parts of our profession.
In any analysis of this incident, dreadful as it is, it would be worth noting that the Captain and FO (and I have no idea who they are) have probably an exemplary record in both line ops and training. They will have on numerous occasions narrowly avoided incidents, but on this occasion they simply got it wrong. No doubt there will be a wealth of people looking at this to work out why, as there should be, but I personally do have sympathy for the crew and would wish to learn from their errors rather than crow about how good I am compared to them.
In any analysis of this incident, dreadful as it is, it would be worth noting that the Captain and FO (and I have no idea who they are) have probably an exemplary record in both line ops and training. They will have on numerous occasions narrowly avoided incidents, but on this occasion they simply got it wrong. No doubt there will be a wealth of people looking at this to work out why, as there should be, but I personally do have sympathy for the crew and would wish to learn from their errors rather than crow about how good I am compared to them.
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Oh, Wisden Wonder, let he who casts the first stone....
I assume you haven't operated widebody aircraft out of deepest darkest at night, or day for that matter? As has been mentioned above, ground ops are the most challenging, threat laden part of the operation (except for Lagos ATC).
Cut these lads a little slack, amateurs they are not, and the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty. Next time, draw breath and review, before clicking 'Post Reply'. We may think more of you...
I assume you haven't operated widebody aircraft out of deepest darkest at night, or day for that matter? As has been mentioned above, ground ops are the most challenging, threat laden part of the operation (except for Lagos ATC).
Cut these lads a little slack, amateurs they are not, and the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty. Next time, draw breath and review, before clicking 'Post Reply'. We may think more of you...
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Originally Posted by Wisden Wonder
What a team of total incompetents, the Control Tower told them to take one taxi-way, so they took another, a wrong one, a narrow one, and then didn't bother to look out of the windows, and maybe note a 'fairly large building on our Starboard Captain', lets just plod on, don't bother to get a wing tip man, a Follow Me wagon, you could not make this up, a total almighty c**k-up, and we still have people who are 'sorry for the crew'. They should be hung/drawn and quartered, they are not fit to occupy the Flight Deck of a 4 jet airliner, the most complicated position for all of those individuals is a sit-on motor mower. And do not continue with this BA safety bit, only months ago did an Airbus take-off with the engine cowlings open, no walk round, or couldn't see, the rest of us have managed to fly the Airbus without similar problems, but we do do walk rounds and don't mind getting our trousers slightly soiled by kneeling down.
Breathtaking
I don't normally comment on this type of thread BUT I cannot believe some of the pure drivel perpetrated by some such as WW, breathtakingly stupid.
I have never taxi-ed anything bigger (in command) than a 767 but I do feel desperately sorry for that 747 crew. Why ? Because I maintain that so long as human beings are involved in flight operations there will be a scattering of incidents, some more serious than others, despite the best possible training and the highest standards of diligence. These guys were human.
I got away with it for almost 40 years and I thank my lucky stars that the finger of fate was never pointed at me.
So perhaps its time to stop speculating on the cause, and criticising the crew on a basis of ignorance, and just wait until those, AAIB, whose professional task it is to objectively determine the cause of this incident and have all the facts, make their report and we hear their recommendations as to how a repeat can be prevented.
I have never taxi-ed anything bigger (in command) than a 767 but I do feel desperately sorry for that 747 crew. Why ? Because I maintain that so long as human beings are involved in flight operations there will be a scattering of incidents, some more serious than others, despite the best possible training and the highest standards of diligence. These guys were human.
I got away with it for almost 40 years and I thank my lucky stars that the finger of fate was never pointed at me.
So perhaps its time to stop speculating on the cause, and criticising the crew on a basis of ignorance, and just wait until those, AAIB, whose professional task it is to objectively determine the cause of this incident and have all the facts, make their report and we hear their recommendations as to how a repeat can be prevented.