Moremi Air van down
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WAT TABLE CALCULATIONS (please check for accuracy)
These are my calculations @40 degrees Centigrade (or below) using the tables provided for a Short Field Technique (with Cargo Pod installed). PA’s of 2000’ & 4000’ are there to shown interpolation and provide variations for the possible PA for the day.
lilflyboy reported to me as approximately 5 knots. Never-the-less I have not included a wind component even though it will reduce the figures below.
PA Gd. Roll/50’ in meters dry/grs Tq <1865 By-pass Gd. Roll/50’ ob
8750 lbs
2000 1910/3400 579/1030 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 720/1281 m
2500 751/1351 m
2750 771/1386 m
3000’ 2100’/3768’ 636/1142 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 791/1420 m
3500’ 827/1489 m
4000’ 2290’/4135’ 694/1253 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 863/1558 m
8300 lbs
2000 1660/2910 503/882 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 626/1097 m
2500 657/1154 m
2750 672/1183 m
3000’ 1820’/3210’ 552/973 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 687/1211 m
3500’ 717/1268 m
4000’ 1980’/3510’ 600/1064 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 747/1324 m
8525lbs (between the above figures)
2750’ = 722/1285 m
3000’ = 739/1316 m
3500’ = 772/1379 m
Keep in mind that the aircraft (according to the sources I spoke to ) did not have the APE III conversion and therefore had to be 8500 lbs (or less) on arrival at Xakanaka (Landing weight limit).
As above you add 15% (dry/grass), another 3% in case full Torque was not used, another 5% if the Separator was in by-pass.
This is for a Standard C208B. I could not get a hold of a POH for a Van with the APE II conversion.Someone please check these, but these figures indicate that even a standard Van could get out of this strip easily which is listed at 840 meters usable.
Now down to the W&B I guess.
lilflyboy reported to me as approximately 5 knots. Never-the-less I have not included a wind component even though it will reduce the figures below.
PA Gd. Roll/50’ in meters dry/grs Tq <1865 By-pass Gd. Roll/50’ ob
8750 lbs
2000 1910/3400 579/1030 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 720/1281 m
2500 751/1351 m
2750 771/1386 m
3000’ 2100’/3768’ 636/1142 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 791/1420 m
3500’ 827/1489 m
4000’ 2290’/4135’ 694/1253 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 863/1558 m
8300 lbs
2000 1660/2910 503/882 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 626/1097 m
2500 657/1154 m
2750 672/1183 m
3000’ 1820’/3210’ 552/973 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 687/1211 m
3500’ 717/1268 m
4000’ 1980’/3510’ 600/1064 x 1.15 x 1.03 x 1.05 = 747/1324 m
8525lbs (between the above figures)
2750’ = 722/1285 m
3000’ = 739/1316 m
3500’ = 772/1379 m
Keep in mind that the aircraft (according to the sources I spoke to ) did not have the APE III conversion and therefore had to be 8500 lbs (or less) on arrival at Xakanaka (Landing weight limit).
As above you add 15% (dry/grass), another 3% in case full Torque was not used, another 5% if the Separator was in by-pass.
This is for a Standard C208B. I could not get a hold of a POH for a Van with the APE II conversion.Someone please check these, but these figures indicate that even a standard Van could get out of this strip easily which is listed at 840 meters usable.
Now down to the W&B I guess.
Last edited by flying ham; 25th Dec 2011 at 07:06.
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Gear up for a Promotion
On an associated note I have discovered that the pilot involved in my previous post (#62) the one with the "Ostrige mentality" of failing to report a near accident has since been promoted to Safety Officer. Interesting decision making and well done to the company CAAB should love that.
maybe not!!!!
maybe not!!!!
Last edited by flying ham; 25th Dec 2011 at 08:43.
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The Director's and operating officers of the company (Ops Manager, Chief Pilot, and Safety Officer) are in the hot seat....
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ULTIMATE RESPONSIBILITY lies with the Operations staff
Yes Martin was the Operations Manager. But I mentioned "Long Term Negligence". There have been previous Operations staff (Ops Managers and Chief Pilot's) through their other accidents. When the Lawyers get involved and they always do, they are going to be looking at the litany of the accidents the Company had in such a short period of time, and looking very closely at what the company did to stop the bleeding if that is the right phrase. Did they make any attempt to change the way they were doing things or did they just proceed ahead and silence any dissenters that surfaced. Owing to the fact that Martin had resigned over concerns with Operations I would think it was more of "silence the dissenters" type thinking. My understanding is that Moremi Air has gone through a lot of Operations Managers and Chief Pilot's over the past 5 years. That could indicate a reason for concern depending on why these people left. Concerning you comment about the Chief Pilot and Safety Officer being frustrated, well just remember they are ultimately legally responsible for how the operation is conducted, so if they think they can say 'but I was just following orders of the CEO' and they are off the hook - ha, good luck with that one on the legal side. Add my previous posts (#62 and #122). Don’t focus on the mistake but the way it was handled by the individual and then the fact the Company went ahead and put him in charge of Safety - that is the thinking I am talking about. What message is that sending? Now to your other comment - this woman (the 'she' you mentioned) who is the CEO, it sounds like you know more than you are saying. How do you think she attempted to cover this up? Do tell!!
Last edited by flying ham; 31st Dec 2011 at 14:58.
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Flying Ham, I can see both, your points, and those of Capt Livingstone. Firstly the CEO is not a 'woman' she is a 'lady'. Regarding liability we need 'Flying Lawyer' but I am not sure if he follows this particular forum. My main involvement with operations was in the military where, if you like, I was 'Ops Manager' for many heavy 4 jets and their crews. The situation there is completely different where the Authorising Officer and the Captain are the first in the firing line. I was only a line pilot in the airlines. I am not 100% sure of the legal responsibilities held by the directors and management of an air charter company.
In Greece we had a passenger ship go down close our location in 2000. Over 80 passengers died. The Chairman of the company threw himself out of his office window on the top floor of their shipping office. He obviously considered himself liable.
On that cheerful note may I wish everyone a happy and successful 2012. Special good wishes to those hoping for jobs here in Maun. I also hope that we get some official feedback very soon about this accident so that Moremi Air can restructure instead of re-branding and get on with their business.
In Greece we had a passenger ship go down close our location in 2000. Over 80 passengers died. The Chairman of the company threw himself out of his office window on the top floor of their shipping office. He obviously considered himself liable.
On that cheerful note may I wish everyone a happy and successful 2012. Special good wishes to those hoping for jobs here in Maun. I also hope that we get some official feedback very soon about this accident so that Moremi Air can restructure instead of re-branding and get on with their business.
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Thanks for the New Years wishes. To your last point, and to be candid, being a woman does not automatically make you a lady 
. I know a lot of men who are not gentlemen and believe that this disposition does cross the gender spectrum. Let's say the Jury is out for now on the lady issue and stick with what she was born as. I am still awaiting Captain Livingston's contribution for any missing puzzle pieces. He/she seems to know this person and I am interested in an objective take on her from his/her end.
. I know a lot of men who are not gentlemen and believe that this disposition does cross the gender spectrum. Let's say the Jury is out for now on the lady issue and stick with what she was born as. I am still awaiting Captain Livingston's contribution for any missing puzzle pieces. He/she seems to know this person and I am interested in an objective take on her from his/her end.
Last edited by flying ham; 31st Dec 2011 at 15:10.
Está servira para distraerle.
It is not possible for a female employed in the transport trade to be anything other than a woman. This was a similar characteristic claimed by a woman, which of course is not the case here, discussed at great length some years ago on these pages. She rose quite high in the echelons of South African aviation reputedly collecting anatomical specimens and reveling in a title that was far above the mediocrity otherwise contained within her patronymic. As for regurgitation or restructuring of an airline, either would appear to risk sailing close hauled to the wind of a cover up. The defenestration of executive officers from high stories, self propelled or otherwise, is probably not the smart option although it might be most gratifyingly pleasant for some to be present both at the airborne departure and at ground arrival on the tarmac.
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Ah, the Cat is back. I trust your Catnap over the holiday rested you. I must admit that although thorough, accurate and objective research on your part to substantiate opinions may not be your forte. Your use of a Thesaurus is outstanding. 
Any chance you took the time to check my figures (WAT Tables) and see if there is any accuracy to them?
Any chance you took the time to check my figures (WAT Tables) and see if there is any accuracy to them?
Está servira para distraerle.
It was the defenestration of Prague that began the Thirty Years War. That's when a room load of worthies were heaved out of a castle window and so began the first great pan European war 1618-1648.
The 15% required to be added for grass runways relates to the figure extrapolated for TORR. This needs to be added to 50ft obstacle figure determined in order to compensate for the difference between tarmac and grass surfaces. Otherwise the figures seem reasonable enough examples of graphological expertise. One should perhaps decline to speculate how the figures could relate to the accident in question preferring to leave those calculations to the board of inquiry which one presumes is going to convene at some indeterminate stage in the future? As for all this talk of rebranding or restructuring, isn't it the equivalent of a large can of whitewash and a broad brush and hasn't South Africa seen much the same sort of camouflage exercise with one of its own multiple scoring accident airlines recently. The references to that can most assuredly be found on the air links available on the internet. A first class example of the clever use of whitewashing to obtain one's own ends may be had by reference to Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer and the fence job.
Happy New Year to one and all and fireworks all round. The Arab New Year will not take place until November 27th, 2012. 1435AH will also revere the death of Imam Hussein, killed with his family and followers at the battle of Karbala in 680. It's a celebration marked with grief unlike the rather undignified disintegration into alcoholic stupor which marks the Gregorian new year.
The 15% required to be added for grass runways relates to the figure extrapolated for TORR. This needs to be added to 50ft obstacle figure determined in order to compensate for the difference between tarmac and grass surfaces. Otherwise the figures seem reasonable enough examples of graphological expertise. One should perhaps decline to speculate how the figures could relate to the accident in question preferring to leave those calculations to the board of inquiry which one presumes is going to convene at some indeterminate stage in the future? As for all this talk of rebranding or restructuring, isn't it the equivalent of a large can of whitewash and a broad brush and hasn't South Africa seen much the same sort of camouflage exercise with one of its own multiple scoring accident airlines recently. The references to that can most assuredly be found on the air links available on the internet. A first class example of the clever use of whitewashing to obtain one's own ends may be had by reference to Mark Twain's Tom Sawyer and the fence job.
Happy New Year to one and all and fireworks all round. The Arab New Year will not take place until November 27th, 2012. 1435AH will also revere the death of Imam Hussein, killed with his family and followers at the battle of Karbala in 680. It's a celebration marked with grief unlike the rather undignified disintegration into alcoholic stupor which marks the Gregorian new year.
Está servira para distraerle.
The screed, from here,
http://850caravan.com/ftp/AFMS%20PER...REF%20ONLY.pdf
states thus:
2. For operation on a dry, grass runway, increase distance by 15% of the “ground roll” figure.
I suspect it might all be quite academic since Botswana boasts a magnificent number of grass species: approximately 400 species, representing 94 genera have been recorded. This constitutes nearly half of the grasses found in southern Africa. The Cessna POH can hardly be expected to produce ground graphs and friction coefficient tables, including braking, for each type of grass and then one suspects that the figures could be different again depending on whether the grass were long or short, munched by an antelope or trampled by an elephant.
http://850caravan.com/ftp/AFMS%20PER...REF%20ONLY.pdf
states thus:
2. For operation on a dry, grass runway, increase distance by 15% of the “ground roll” figure.
I suspect it might all be quite academic since Botswana boasts a magnificent number of grass species: approximately 400 species, representing 94 genera have been recorded. This constitutes nearly half of the grasses found in southern Africa. The Cessna POH can hardly be expected to produce ground graphs and friction coefficient tables, including braking, for each type of grass and then one suspects that the figures could be different again depending on whether the grass were long or short, munched by an antelope or trampled by an elephant.
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Yes I am aware that Xakanaka airstrip is calcrete. But it certainly is not asphalt and therefore I threw in the 15% increase to be objective and offer the idea that even then Martin could have rolled further - still got airborne (which of course he did) - and not been legally outside his limits.
I am also aware that there are only 2 grass strips in the Delta proper.
Cessna does not differentiate on grass types, so your ravenous grass research whilst much appreciated only serves to muddle the view of the playing field and me thinks that you may spend too much time smoking the stuff. Try to focus, be objective (look it up) , because I am sure you have trouble grasping the concept objectivity and have absolutely no trouble with the concept of 'stirring the pot'.
You keep mentioning for all of us to await the board of inquiry. If that were true this forum would cease to exist or at the very least seek to limit our topic matter. In a previous post you implied that the CAAB could have somehow missed approving AKD's load extender mod but now you are willing to await patiently for the Board of Inquiry perhaps as a method to slate the outcome once it appears in public.
This discussion should continue and you will no doubt participate and continue to dazzle us with your knowledge of Grass and the other area's that constitute essentially useless information in the world of Aviation, but from time to time provide us all with a rye smile.
I am also aware that there are only 2 grass strips in the Delta proper.
Cessna does not differentiate on grass types, so your ravenous grass research whilst much appreciated only serves to muddle the view of the playing field and me thinks that you may spend too much time smoking the stuff. Try to focus, be objective (look it up) , because I am sure you have trouble grasping the concept objectivity and have absolutely no trouble with the concept of 'stirring the pot'.
You keep mentioning for all of us to await the board of inquiry. If that were true this forum would cease to exist or at the very least seek to limit our topic matter. In a previous post you implied that the CAAB could have somehow missed approving AKD's load extender mod but now you are willing to await patiently for the Board of Inquiry perhaps as a method to slate the outcome once it appears in public.
This discussion should continue and you will no doubt participate and continue to dazzle us with your knowledge of Grass and the other area's that constitute essentially useless information in the world of Aviation, but from time to time provide us all with a rye smile.
Está servira para distraerle.
Most excellently amusing post although I doubt the intention was for it to be entirely that. I would suggest, in the absence of facts, that it is difficult to be anything other than subjective.
Objectivity isn't really a concept but more of a way of looking at something through a series of true and provable facts. One of these facts might be for example, whether any modifications to an aircraft had been approved by any relevant authority.
Until such time as a fact like that were determined, it's really only possible to be subjective which is where this sort of forum seems to get mixed up among those who would like to arrive at a certain objectivity but who can only make determinations of opinion relevant to subjectivity. Therefore it seems pointless to discuss the actual incident any further until sufficient facts have been made available to enable an objective deduction.
It seems logical to assume that only a government board of inquiry would have either the authority or the ability to assemble these facts and present them for the consumption of interested parties or enthusiasts.
As for the rye smile? I think not. Rye grass (Lolium) is a tufted perennial which might be an appropriate description of some of the posts here which are patchy in parts.
The Americans make Rye Whisky and horrid stuff it is too! The smile itself of course should be described as a wry one.
Nonetheless though, a valiant attempt at dry humor and a pun of some excellence under the circumstances much appreciated and acknowledged as such without any overt element of condescension.
Objectivity isn't really a concept but more of a way of looking at something through a series of true and provable facts. One of these facts might be for example, whether any modifications to an aircraft had been approved by any relevant authority.
Until such time as a fact like that were determined, it's really only possible to be subjective which is where this sort of forum seems to get mixed up among those who would like to arrive at a certain objectivity but who can only make determinations of opinion relevant to subjectivity. Therefore it seems pointless to discuss the actual incident any further until sufficient facts have been made available to enable an objective deduction.
It seems logical to assume that only a government board of inquiry would have either the authority or the ability to assemble these facts and present them for the consumption of interested parties or enthusiasts.
As for the rye smile? I think not. Rye grass (Lolium) is a tufted perennial which might be an appropriate description of some of the posts here which are patchy in parts.
The Americans make Rye Whisky and horrid stuff it is too! The smile itself of course should be described as a wry one.
Nonetheless though, a valiant attempt at dry humor and a pun of some excellence under the circumstances much appreciated and acknowledged as such without any overt element of condescension.
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 2nd Jan 2012 at 23:05. Reason: Change of colonoscopic construction.
Está servira para distraerle.
That seems a perfectly reasonable request and certainly one that is easier to comply with than always having to highlight and justify. Good luck to you for the new year by the way.
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I haven't been on thread for a while but its been fascinating reading all the stuff that has been posted. I have no doubt that Martin would have a LOT to respond to some of the comments posted about him and the incident if he were able to do so...
As for waiting for the final report to come out, I have my personal doubts that it will give a definitive explanation of what really happened. It seems that some questions haven't been asked, and people haven't been talked to, evidence was missed, and some initial reports given by those on site/at the scene/in the air weren't forwarded on to the investigator. Not sure how true all this is, but those of us in Martin's camp are concerned that the full story may not yet be told.
One thing that isn't very clear is what has happened to the engine from the aircraft. Variously reported as having been sent to a 'specialist' operation in SA, left sitting untouched, manufacturer refused access to it for inspection, disassembled before inspection, critical parts missing etc. Can anyone shed any light on where the powerplant is, and what is happening to it.
As for waiting for the final report to come out, I have my personal doubts that it will give a definitive explanation of what really happened. It seems that some questions haven't been asked, and people haven't been talked to, evidence was missed, and some initial reports given by those on site/at the scene/in the air weren't forwarded on to the investigator. Not sure how true all this is, but those of us in Martin's camp are concerned that the full story may not yet be told.
One thing that isn't very clear is what has happened to the engine from the aircraft. Variously reported as having been sent to a 'specialist' operation in SA, left sitting untouched, manufacturer refused access to it for inspection, disassembled before inspection, critical parts missing etc. Can anyone shed any light on where the powerplant is, and what is happening to it.
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Quote:
The screed, from here,
http://850caravan.com/ftp/AFMS%20PER...REF%20ONLY.pdf
states thus:
2. For operation on a dry, grass runway, increase distance by 15% of the “ground roll” figure.
Nice reference from a POH of a caravan equipped with a Honeywell 850HP engine, (unapproved by Cessna I believe?)
as opposed to what AKD, (and all caravans in Botswana) ar equipped with... a Pratt&Whitney 675HP engine!
Good posts otherwise
The screed, from here,
http://850caravan.com/ftp/AFMS%20PER...REF%20ONLY.pdf
states thus:
2. For operation on a dry, grass runway, increase distance by 15% of the “ground roll” figure.
Nice reference from a POH of a caravan equipped with a Honeywell 850HP engine, (unapproved by Cessna I believe?)
as opposed to what AKD, (and all caravans in Botswana) ar equipped with... a Pratt&Whitney 675HP engine!
Good posts otherwise