Close Calls, SFO, SWA, Alaska, United, missing the date...28 R/L
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why can't they program for either runway then make an immediate change? Is this a system limitation, misunderstandng by the crews or laziness ?
It is an unfortunate fact of life that in the USA that they have to move a heck of lot of tin as expeditiously as possible. To a very large extent they achieve that remarkably well. Occasionally it doesn't work and a go around is the result. Two go arounds is very frustrating but also very rare. Tower have their problems and approach their's. ATC Watcher is correct about ATC problems being amplified when TWR and APP are no longer manned by dual rated ATCOs working at the same facility. By working both ATC positions, they understood the constraints concerning both aspects of the job. Now it's become the proverbial "them and us" division! Not a good situation!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My bad, I thought we were talking about programming the FMC for departure. Can’t do both runways.
Late sidestep is something else and many factors come into play. Ultimately a crew decision.
Late sidestep is something else and many factors come into play. Ultimately a crew decision.
Thansk . What happens if you 'get it wrong'? This seems to have been an afternoon departure in reasonable weather. If an error in setting has been made (which must happen occasionally I suppose) presumably the pilots can simply ignore it and continue to fly sasfely manually until such time as they can correct that error - or what have I missed?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Performance wise it can be a major difference and worst case you may be departing with not enough thrust from the engines. There are some spectacular examples of that, Emirates in Melbourne, Qatar in Miami. Departure wise you may be following the wrong SID which can be embarrasing at best. Doesn’t really matter if you fly manually or not if your navigation is set up for the wrong runway.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without knowing what tools they had available to them or how familiar they were with SFO, I could also think 3-4 min is on the high side. We don’t know what other distractions were present, such as crossing an active runway. With any sort of modern EFB (Electronic Flight Bag) you can at least prepare the performance numbers on the Ipad (or equivalent) and be ready to enter them into the FMC.
I thought the controller was cheerful and did her best to be helpful & positive in pointing out the snags. I see/hear no attitude problem from her.
The pilots of the Delta flight were perhaps being hopeful with their time estimate, rather than actually dishonest. Maybe a wee apology form them would have helped smooth things over. Why can't they program for either runway then make an immediate change? Is this a system limitation, misunderstandng by the crews or laziness ? Why can't they just launch and adjust their computer BS enroute - surely its not going to change their track much, or are they required to follow exactly the 'supposed 'magenta line' programmed in before departure? Doesn't sound that difficult, though I agree betterto have it sorted beforehand if possible
The pilots of the Delta flight were perhaps being hopeful with their time estimate, rather than actually dishonest. Maybe a wee apology form them would have helped smooth things over. Why can't they program for either runway then make an immediate change? Is this a system limitation, misunderstandng by the crews or laziness ? Why can't they just launch and adjust their computer BS enroute - surely its not going to change their track much, or are they required to follow exactly the 'supposed 'magenta line' programmed in before departure? Doesn't sound that difficult, though I agree betterto have it sorted beforehand if possible
